BR 1,500v DC Electrification Schemes

[Peter Kazmierczak]

In the early 1950s, BR reiterated its desire to standardise on 1,500v DC for future mainline electrification. A committee was set up to prepare a GN suburban scheme from KX to Hitchin at this voltage.

 

Another BR report on the Types of Motive Power (1951) suggested examination of extending this electrification from Hitchin to Cambridge and, more interestingly, along the ECML to Grantham, then branching off to Nottingham then up the Great Central to join up with the then being completed MSW electrification at Rotherwood. This might be where we got the initial order for 27 EM2s from, rather than the seven actually built.

 

The report explicity includes mention of electrification to Colwick Yard.

 

Does anyone know if there were plans to extend electrification not just via Nottm Victoria, but also beyond Colwick via the ex-GN line  "Back Line" through Mapperley Tunnel, then onto the GN Leen Valley line to rejoin the GC at Annesley? Or was a new direct spur planned in the Basford/Bulwell area to connect with the GC there?

 

Any info would be much appreciated.

 

Tried all the usual possible internet websites.

[pete_mcfarlane]

I've heard of the Kings Cross - Grantham - Colwick scheme before, but not the planned extension beyond Colwick. I'd assumed they weren't going to wire up Victoria because most passenger services ran from Derby Friargate - Nottingham - Grantham, and the electrification was just for the coal trains.

 

Wiring up Victoria would have been fun, with all the lengthy tunnels through the centre of Nottingham.

[paulbb]

In the 1980's whilst working at BR's then  York ER HQ, I did see a document that looked at  1500DC electrification using the MSW scheme and those above

but also extending east to March and Ipswich (!), and west  along the Fallowfield Loop from Fairfield into Manchester Central, and thence to Liverpool.

pretty sure that the 'proposal' stage was as far as it got though, as the original MSW did plan to go west along the Loop and some canopies at

Fallowfield and Wilbraham Rd were actually cut back, I think. As above I think that this was about coal trains, tho the  Boat train from

Liverpool to Parkeston Quay (as it was then) could then have been an EM2 loco . What we would all pay to travel on that train and route now.....

[Welly]

Hmmm.... more what if layout ideas!

[Ravenser]

The LNER had commissioned a consultant's report on large scale 1500V DC electrification in 1930 . This covered nearly all the ground mentioned (plus fairly comprehensive electrification in Lincolnshire) and was meant as a study to see what was possible or would be viable.

 

The consultants were explicitly told to assume that the KX suburban area was already electrified, as the case for suburban electrification was clear. 

 

What Western Sunset and paulbb are describing sounds like a post war ER attempt to blow the dust off the prewar studies and come up with a sensible electrification programme for the post war world . The 1930 study proposed KX/Leeds electrification . The 1950s schemes sound like an attempt to get phase 1 in place , to Grantham, and link up with the MSW scheme - meaning GC services would have changed to electric at Nottingham , not Sheffield .I remember reading somewhere (Eastern Electric?) that CLC electrification was blocked by LMS/LMR interests - certainly it would have been a logical extension of the MSW scheme, and if carried out we might still have had 1500V electric trains running Liverpool/Sheffield (or at least until a 25kV conversion in the late 80s...)

 

The original order for 27 EM2s with 90mph capability has always suggested to me that the ER were envisaging something much bigger than MSW. The EM2 made limited sense on a route with a 65mph line limit  

[charliepetty]

In the 1980's whilst working at BR's then  York ER HQ, I did see a document that looked at  1500DC electrification using the MSW scheme and those above

but also extending east to March and Ipswich (!), and west  along the Fallowfield Loop from Fairfield into Manchester Central, and thence to Liverpool.

pretty sure that the 'proposal' stage was as far as it got though, as the original MSW did plan to go west along the Loop and some canopies at

Fallowfield and Wilbraham Rd were actually cut back, I think. As above I think that this was about coal trains, tho the  Boat train from

Liverpool to Parkeston Quay (as it was then) could then have been an EM2 loco . What we would all pay to travel on that train and route now.....

The LNER initially had plans before the war to 1500V dc the lines from Kings X to York and Shenfield-Colchester-Clacton-Norwich.  I think you can see a little of LNER joined up thinking here: Not far from Grantham/Retford to Sheffield. I have plans here for Reddish Depot extension for an additional 12 X GE 3 Car EMUs (I assume Class 306 in their 1500V dc form) The was titled 'LNER Liverpool Extension Proposals', I think the problem was the 2nd world war got in the way.

This I assume was the Metropolitan Vickers logic for having 27 Class EM2 95mph 2750HP locomotives and more Class EM1s too.The LNER was abolished, and the LMS at Derby took over, thus we saw concentration of traffic onto the Midland Mainline & West Coast at the expense of the Great Central & East Coast. On electrification the proposals looked at West Coast & East Coast at 25Kv, of course the buisest and most populated was the West Coast.

Shame really as Eurostars could now be running to Manchester via Nottingham & Sheffield as the GC was to Bern loading gauge.  That's forward planning for you!

 

Charlie Petty  EM2 Locomotive Society

[Titan]

Eurostars are built to UK loading gauge, not Bern and could be run to Manchester on the current 25kv network, subject to acceptance tests in the way that GNER ran Eurostars Kings Cross to Leeds.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Eurostars are built to UK loading gauge, not Bern and could be run to Manchester on the current 25kv network, subject to acceptance tests in the way that GNER ran Eurostars Kings Cross to Leeds.

The depot at Longsight was built and has been used for Pendos. BR spent about £100m on works to the WCML to allow NoL services to run, and tests were well advanced when the service was abandonded. A token service using conventional stock did run via Birmingham to Waterloo for a short time but this was poorly patronised as it was not properly advertised

[charliepetty]

Eurostars are built to UK loading gauge, not Bern and could be run to Manchester on the current 25kv network, subject to acceptance tests in the way that GNER ran Eurostars Kings Cross to Leeds.

The problem was for GNER, not enough current in the overhead caused massive pathing problems, the NEW Eurostars won't be to BR loading gauge!!

[Christopher125]

Shame really as Eurostars could now be running to Manchester via Nottingham & Sheffield as the GC was to Bern loading gauge.  That's forward planning for you!

 

I understand this is something of an urban myth unfortunately - while the GCR was built to a generous size for this country it falls short of 'Bern' gauge, a standard which didn't even exist until many years after the GCR opened.

 

Chris

[phil-b259]

I understand this is something of an urban myth unfortunately - while the GCR was built to a generous size for this country it falls short of 'Bern' gauge, a standard which didn't even exist until many years after the GCR opened.

 

Chris

 

Correct, and it certanly wouldn't have been OK for Bern + OHLE without extensive modifications. Even more drastic alterations would be need if you wanted to run at 186mph.

[roythebus]

ISTR there's already been a discussion on the GC and the Berne loading gauge theory elsewhere on here. Let's not cover the same ground twice!

[Guest Max Stafford]

With regard to electrification; in the early-mid 1950s. There was consideration given to a suggestion made by the Northern Hydro Board to BR that the Highland Mainline be electrified, presumably to 1500v DC. The idea which would have seen BR getting a good deal from the hydro for power supply was unfortunately not taken up. It's interesting to speculate on what would have transpired had the idea been taken up. The Highland system might well have had a somewhat Scandinavian character in the 1960s!

 

Dave.