Southernboy Posted January 27, 2013 Author Share Posted January 27, 2013 Hello Nick, thanks for that. The etchings are pre-drilled btw, which is quite handy. I've etchings for three 3-Subs sets: Two sets will be motorised, and the third unmotorised. The two motorised units will circle the up and down line ... and the third unit will be hooked up to one of them when I decide it's morning or evening rush hour. I'm also considering giving one unit LSWR numbers and livery, and two of them SR numbers and livery. An obvious later project is an example of the two-car trailer sets that were coupled between 3-Subs in rush hours - but given that Frankland is a small layout the length of such a train may be too much ... time will tell. Thanks again, Mark -------------- EDIT: It's just occurred to me that some people may think it quite odd that I want to build three almost totally identical units. But for me the ubiquity of standard units wherever you look is all part of the essence of Southern Modeling. I can't wait to see the three sets lined-up next to each other in the carriage sidings waiting for their morning rosters Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium nick_bastable Posted January 27, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 27, 2013 It's just occurred to me that some people may think it quite odd that I want to build three almost totally identical units. But for me the ubiquity of standard units wherever you look is all part of the essence of Southern Modeling. I can't wait to see the three sets lined-up next to each other in the carriage sidings waiting for their morning rosters which is why I own two green Farish CEPS and hopefully one day a pair of 2 bils Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
c2c Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 This cab-front is magnificent Bernard. Truly painstaking work. This is N gauge right ? And all using Plasticard / Plastic Rod ? I don't know how you've done it ... the fine detail (including whistle and wiper I note), the crispness, accuracy, and precision of line, it is an incredible quality of modelling. I looked at this picture last night, and have been looking at it again for at least half-an-hour this evening - and I'm still quite staggered to be honest! I've had the pleasure of actually holding that Cab front! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernboy Posted January 28, 2013 Author Share Posted January 28, 2013 You are honoured indeed - but more importantly - was inspiration drawn and lessons absorbed? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
c2c Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 You are honoured indeed - but more importantly - was inspiration drawn and lessons absorbed? But of course anyone who is a serious railway modeler would be drawn to Bernards skill and knowledge. Had a chat with him today and there just might be a little surprise for you in the near future if your into modeling/scratch building N-Gauge BR 401's. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernboy Posted February 9, 2013 Author Share Posted February 9, 2013 3-Sub update 02: I thought I should post an update just to show that things are happening on this project, albeit rather slowly. Firstly: The postman has delivered wheels, buffers, vents and couplings ... Today I finally got the etchings out to start work proper, and it felt like quite a special moment As mentioned before - the lower half of the carriage sides are not etched to represent the carriage doors: As a point of interest I wondered why: So I looked at pictures of carriages in books, and noticed that from many angles you can't actually make-out the edges of the doors at all. And even straight-on they are sometimes not at all obvious, as in the picture below - in N gauge such a fine rebate would be quite indiscernible. But even so - something compels me to feel the doors should be represented. So an old bit of brass from an abandoned project was used as a tester ( the scribed lines are those running top-to-bottom in the painted area) and I found that a bradawl I have is best for scribing them. So I made a start scribing the doors on the 49' TC, which you can see in the picture below. Next: From a box of eBay bargains I removed the bogies and wheels ... Here's one of the generic Farish bogies ... ... which I trimmed to a nearer representation of the LSWR bogies. The little bit in the middle is quite fragile so I may need to reinforce it. I think I'm going to construct the dummy unit first, and from experience learned, later move on to the two powered units. ------------------------ So not an exciting update I'm afraid - and I can't promise rapid progress either - but a start none-the-less Mark ------------------------ EDIT: btw- I meant to ask, what's the best way to fit bogies to the carriage? I'm sure I've seen most people use a fine bolt, but what size? And any recommendations on retailers for these? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etched Pixels Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 M4 for the Farish bogies. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernboy Posted February 10, 2013 Author Share Posted February 10, 2013 Thank you Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium nick_bastable Posted February 10, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 10, 2013 Mark I've just bought one of the grafar Parcel units for motor bogies to go eventually under a BIL and HAL, rather than reinvent the wheel whats your thoughts on the the motor bogie been more Southern like ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernboy Posted February 10, 2013 Author Share Posted February 10, 2013 Hello Nick, I'm just looking at Brian Goulding's book 'Southern Electric Units': Figs 176 & 182 for the 2-Bil, and figs 206 & 212 for the 2-Hal, and the motor bogies look very similar to those already on the Express Parcels unit. I say 'similar' because the overall shape and form look 'near-enough' to me, although I'm sure if I did a proper 'compare-and-contrast' between these and other drawings and photographs, differences in detail would become evident. Like the rivets may be in the wrong configuration or the shape of the axleboxes may differ - but how far down that road you or I go depends on how much precision to prototype one wants I suppose. The gubbins mid-way between the wheels I think could be left in place as it will be useful as an extra fixing point for the collector-shoe and beam to be stuck to. The double-steps on the Express Parcels bogies are not right, but whilst writing this I've discovered they simply unplug from the bogie You can see in the picture below that just above the springs on the right are the two locating lugs from the removed steps which would just need filling, and then a single step added. Otherwise it's just the adding the fuse-box, pick-up shoe and beam. When I made my Farish-bashed 3-Sub I used Plasticard for those ... In the picture above is the dummy motor-bogie, which I beefed-up with more Plasticard because the motor-bogies are more substantial on an LSWR 3-Sub compared to later units. I hope that helps - and any reciprocal thoughts from you or anyone else on this matter appreciated - as I may well have missed something quite obvious! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernboy Posted February 17, 2013 Author Share Posted February 17, 2013 3-Sub update 03 The etching has holes drilled for grab handles ... I used 5 Amp fuse wire looped through ... ... and pulled tight at the back. But to my eye the wire looks too thin compared to the holes through which it runs. So I tried a section of picture-hanging wire (which is wider) glued directly to the carriage side, as shown on the middle door of the picture below). Using this method I fixed eight handles to the side of the upper of the two carriage sides shown below. I think it looks ok - but found the gluing problematic ... 1) At 1/8" long the handles are very difficult to pick up with tweezers or a cocktail stick without them inexplicably pinging-off into the carpet - I must have cut double the number I actually used - maybe practice-will-make-perfect? For gluing: I tried both Superglue and Epoxy Resin applied from the end of a track pin. 2) I found that Superglue is too fluid and when applied in small dots to the carriage sides it ran into the panels (compromising the crispness of the etching). When applied to to the grab-handle directly (held in the tweezers) it tended to glue the two together ... very fiddly. 3) Epoxy Resin was like porridge - it was difficult to apply in minute amounts to either the carriage side or the back of the handles (it didn't want to come-off the track pin without lots of rubbing - which just built up a mess of glue on the coach side or back of the grab handle). Does anyone have suggestions? -------------------- Looking further forward - I wonder whether the grab-handles will 'ping off' when I bend the tumblehomes to shape ... (?) But that's a bit of a chicken-and-egg situation - because I could shape the tumblehomes first and then fix the handles, but pressing the handles into place may then distort the curvature of the tumblehomes ... I don't know. Any thoughts / experiences / observations welcome here too ... -------------------- I know progress is painfully slow at the moment - but I'm sure once the teething problems are sorted the pace will pick up Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckingham Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 In 4mm I found it easier to form the tumblehome first, so the grab rails etc don't get in the way when you are bending, either with rolling bars, or with a round bar rolled on the back, with a mouse mat to lay the side face down on, don't know how well that would translate to 2mm. For forming the grab rails consistently, maybe a small jig like the Bill Bedford handrail etch might work, drill a hole of a diameter to suit the wire in a piece of (thickish) plastic or metal at the right distance from an edge for the dimension between the two legs, then bend an L with pliers, put one leg in the hole and bend the second over the edge of the bar, it may be worth making a notch for it to go into, I find you usually need to overbend it slightly. The result looks a bit like a hair pin and the length of the legs makes it a bit easier to hold, you cut off the surplus once fixed in place. You'll still lose a few of these on the floor. In 4mm I'd solder it in place, although on the side it may be better to wait until its painted and add them later, gluing from the back, you'll probably get less seepage. Were the real thing painted in SR days or shiny? If painted, then I would fit them first, if they are soldered from the back you can probably cut and file them down fairly flush to the side. It may also be worth acquiring some small drills to suit the wire you want to use, so that the holes are consistent, you can use a pin vice to hold the drill and keep the protrusion as short as possible to reduce the risk of breakages - I'd deal with the holes while still on the etch so its easier to hold. If you can, experiment on a bit of scrap first, e.g. the waste around the main etch. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 Hi Southernboy, I would agree with Buckingham that you should form the tumblehome before adding side details. The risk otherwise is a slight inconsistency in the tumblehome curve where the handles etc. are fixed. For fixing the handles, solder cream/paste would seem to be best as it can be applied to the joint with the tip of a pin before applying the soldering iron. That would give you fine control of the amount of solder being used for each handle. All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidK71 Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 For N gauge hand-rails I've used thin wire from Eileen's, which I cut and bent into the shape of a staple and then pushed into the holes, using a pair of needle-nosed pliers. It took some practice (and plenty of rejects) to get the wire "staples" to be the right size to fit both holes at once, but it can be done. I then slightly bent the wire from the back to hold it in place, and glued it to the back of the coach side, where it doesn't have to be neat. I also loose quite a few to the carpet - I just tend to accept that I'll need to start with twice as many as will get attached in place. I think you might struggle with just gluing wire to the front of the coach sides. Superglue is very brittle, so if too much pressure is applied, it'll just snap off. If I were attempting that I might try holding the length of wire in tweezers and applying a thin smear of Evostick Impact, but I'd not be very confident about it being robust. As mentioned by others, definitely do the tumble-home curve first. When working on a side that's had a tumble-home curve applied, I rest it on a metal ruler with just the lower curved section hanging over the long edge of the ruler. That way I can apply pressure without ruining the curve. If I need the side to remain very still, I would use a few small pieces of blu-tac to hold the side to the ruler. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernboy Posted February 19, 2013 Author Share Posted February 19, 2013 Thank you gents - your replies are very helpful indeed. Tumblehome first it is then. I'll make a start at the weekend. DavidK71: May I ask which gauge of wire you used? I did in fact experiment at the weekend with wrapping 5amp fuse wire around a square section of Microstrip to form the 'staple' shape you suggested - but what put me off was that the wire I used was too thin (as per my first photo). I don't know what gauge of wire I need to buy (or how I work out what I need), for eg: I have 5/15/30 amp fuse wire ... I know 5 amp is too small for the holes on the Worsley Works etching, 15 amp is way too thick, and picture wire is a little too thick. To confound my uncertainty, some people sell wire in imperial diameters, others in metric diameters, and I don't know how each relates to the other / fuse wire / picture hanging wire ... so I'm a bit lost/ don't know how I cross-reference them to arrive at the gauge of wire I should buy? I know the above sounds a little bit useless on my part - but I'm sure a few pointers in the right direction will get me on my feet and speed up progress Many thanks again for much valued feedback. Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium nick_bastable Posted February 19, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 19, 2013 N Brass do a very nice ( if expensive) bending jig, I think the Bill Bedford one is really to big for 2mm, Eileens sell 2.56 Nickle wire by the coil works quite nice in my opinion for 2mm hand/grab rails Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidK71 Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 May I ask which gauge of wire you used? I used nickel silver wire, 0.31mm diameter: Eileen's sell it in 12" straight lengths in packs of 10. I also bought a jeweler's Archimedes twist drill with some drill bits on eBay for about a fiver: this has proved very usefull in widening holes in coach sides if needed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth Collier Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 I use 0.3mm wire from my local model shop. I always fit the handles last of all, following building and painting and glazing. The reason for this is that in 2mm the windows are very close to the handles so fitting them first can stop your glazing strip sitting flat. Once glazed I pass a 0/35mm drill bit through the holes and if necessary continue the hole through the glazing strip. To fix in place I use Micro Kristal Klear as it sets fairly quickly, won't 'fog' the glazing and if it gets on the glazing can be washed off or ignored as it clear. Also handles are rarely body colour so you can keep the brass colour or paint them before fitting them. HTH Gareth Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernboy Posted February 21, 2013 Author Share Posted February 21, 2013 Thanks again for your thoughtful and detailed answers gents - this is exactly the sort of advice and valuable experience I was hoping to tap into. I'll update again in a week or so. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
c2c Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Mark just one question do you have a set of cutting broaches? If not they are very handy with working on etched brass kits, a reasonably good set will cost around £14.00 from Eileen's If your wire is just slightly oversize these will get your holes to the required diameter! Regards DaveH Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernboy Posted March 3, 2013 Author Share Posted March 3, 2013 Hello c2c - No is the answer to your question. I did look at Eileen's for broaches and they don't seem to sell them small enough. But thanks anyway, and I have a further question about this in my post below 3-Sub update 04 So this week I received a parcel: But I'm a bit confused ... bolts aren't supplied with nuts. I sort-of assumed they would be. I've never been to a shop before that sells one without the other ... From reading a few articles a while back it seemed to be the case that the nuts are soldered to the brass floor of the carriage, and then the bolts are passed through bogies to retain them ... ... so have I missed something? Is there some other method I'm not aware of and should be? ------------------------------------------------------------ Next question: Here's the M4 bolt, and to the right of it is the centre-point for the hole through which it should pass. What's the best tool for making that hole? A broach? A drill? Sorry to ask so many questions, but I really want to do this 'the right way' rather than just head-off and make (maybe wrong) assumptions of my own. Final question: In the picture above, at the bottom, you can see the vents over the carriage doors. Just to the right are additional vents which in theory are placed over those above the doors to form the pronounced relief of said vents on the original carriages. But the 'additions' are only 2/3rds the height they need to be. They should be the full height of the paneling over the doors (at least that's my observation from looking at photographs of the original units). In view of the fact the vents are only 2/3rds the height they should be - my inclination is to leave them off rather than do 'compromise-job' - but I'd be interested if anyone has other views or experience of this? Well once again my apologies for lack of progress. I seem to be at a point where each each answer to my questions seem to propagate yet more questions! All part of the learning curve I guess - but thanks in advance for your patience, indulgence and hopefully answers! Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oldlugger Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 This will be a cracking model Mark! Cheers Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted March 4, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 4, 2013 Nuts soldered to the floor is the way that you need to go Mark. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
c2c Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Nuts soldered to the floor is the way that you need to go Mark. Hi Mark I would agree also the best way is to solder the nuts to the floor, but before you do this make sure to use a good flux and low melt solder to prevent too much heat dissipation. DaveH Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
c2c Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 One more thing Mark I've just noticed looking back at your picture you are using a 188' melt solder, 140' would be a better choice to use for brass kits, its one I feel Allen would advise also. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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