updating Hornby class 91 and mk 4 stock

[43179]

The old Hornby 91 can scrub up fairly well - move the bufferbeam back and set the windscreens slightly further back and it looks miles better. AFAIK , the bodyshell doesn't have any major shape errors? 

 

The light cluster mod above is well worth doing too.  Just need a friendly 'etcher' to make the GNER style horn grille and headlight frames for the 'Stealth Bombers'

 

Jon 

[JDW]

Thought I'd resurrect this thread rather than start another, I've been working on a Mk4 set recently, just for show really as I have no use for it on my layout, and it'd be too long anyway.  The Mk4s are getting the end skirts replaced, close couplings, gangway connections between coaches, and new wheels, the DVT will be similar, plus the light mod as shown on the 91 above.  I'll post a few more pics as and when, if people are interested...

 

 

The one in the picture was my "testbed" for the light mods, using a train set body shell (less printed detail, no cantrail stripes, etc) but swapped on to a chassis with a white faring for the picture.  Not sure I want to repeat it again, its a fiddly job, might just keep that one and add details.  I'm working on the 91 at the minute, both ends, if I'm still sane afterwards I might re-do the DVT with a better bodyshell as a starting point.  

 

Once I'd removed the "light" bar as supplied, I cut off the end sections and centre part with the swallow, before filing down some light units from the ends of a scrap class 153 shell to fit in the gap, recessed to allow a tiny piece of clear plastic to fit on top.  Before fitting the parts, the whole recess was coloured black with a fine permanent marker.  

[SD45T-2]

Another option is an Athearn SD45. From memory the bogie centres are slightly short and the wheelbase a bit longer, but it all fits.

Not for a Class 90 or 91 it isn't, but might do for Avocet. All EMD SDs are six-axle locos; possibly a GP-something would give you the mechanism.

A late acquaintance of mine used an Athearn SD40-2 mechanism for a Deltic and the Trainmaster chassis sits perfectly under a Class 31 body once you cut off the coupler mounts.

[JDW]

Can anybody please advise me on the best couplers to use for close coupling the mk4s.

 

I assume close coupling the coaches means complete removal of the original bogie mounted couplers as I am trying to do chassis mounted coupling on the 2x 91s, 11x mk4s and 1x DVT.

 

I have successfully ( I think ) managed to couple 5 mk3s using kadee couplers and have tried these on the mk4s.

 

The problem is that whether the coaches are being pushed or pulled the keep derailing.

 

Any thoughts will be welcome.

 

I'm modifying the full rake with Keen Systems close couplings and resin fairings to replace the bogie mounted ones.  I haven't actually run any coupled together yet, but so far they seem to be fitting together well.  The coupling mounts need a section cutting out of the chassis, a fairly easy job, then the coupling mounting plate fixing in to the hole, with your chosen coupling head.  I haven't decided yet, but as this is a fixed rake will probably just use the simple bar supplied for cheapness and ease of adjustment if I need to increase the gap between coaches, but [non-working] buckeye style ones are also available, and it should be possible to fit other types in to the mounting.  

 

As far as I can see, it should be possible to use these for the DVT too, with a modified fairing, but not for the 91, I'll have to investigate that a little more, but will probably use a close coupler on the TSOE connected to a body-mounted one on the 91, but will need some experimenting to make sure it will negotiate curves without derailing.  

[JDW]

Hi Mersey,

 

I've never used Kadees so can't really help there, but the Keen close couplings seem to be doing the job, at least on the workbench, haven't tested them on a layout yet, but hoping to pop to a friends place this week and test them on a second radius curves and through pointwork.  If it runs through that, it should run anywhere, the gap between gangways is down to a few millimetres, filled by a paper concertina gangway, but the Keen coupling bars aren't glued in place yet so I can still adjust the spacing slightly if needed.  

 

It probably needs a lot more surgery than just fitting Kadees but with the large end throw of the coaches a close coupling cam mechanism is probably better than just body mounted Kadees, I think, and for a fixed rake takes away any play or slack between the couplings, which should give more reliable running when being propelled,  I suspect that for a full rake, the Keen couplings will be cheaper too.

 

Sorry, that's probably not the answer you were looking for!  I've a couple of pics on my phone, I'll upload them when I'm on a better connection.  

[JDW]

As promised, a few pics of the work so far - all the coaches will be done the same, these are the first two.  A view of the TSOE with new end in place and close coupling fitted at the opposite end (top), TSO with close coupling fitted at one end (middle) and original Hornby model (bottom). This was as far as I went at first, just one pair of couplings as a test, then I took the pair to a friends layout to test them through second radius pointwork, which was a reasonable success, with just the gangway bellows catching when pushed through a long reverse curve, easily solve-able.  So now I know that the couplings are fitted at a suitable distance apart, I can get on with the rest.  I set them up so that the bellows of the gangway are almost fully compressed, with a little give to allow for change of gradient, when running on straight track.  I only used one set of bellows per gap, as fitting too put the coaches quite far apart, however it does mean that a gap opens up between them ob=n train set curves.  I don't have anywhere to run the set, and if I did find somewhere, it is unlikely to be a train set type layout (anyone want to borrow a Mk4 set for an exhibition layout?!) so I'm not too worried by that.  

 

 

 

The two coach ends with fairing and close coupling unit resting in place.  Note that the roof, ends and glazing are one unit on these coaches, removing the floor end removes the clips that locate in the bottom of the gangway but I can't see that being a problem.

 

 

 

I cut away the floor and filed back flush to the coach sides to fit the close coupling mount.  I found the mount needed just a couple of strokes of a file to fit between the coach sides without pushing too hard outwards against them, risking slight distortion.  Note that I left a small fillet of the floor at the very end, where my knife is pointing, to locate and support the end valence, something which I didn't do in the first one, but it made life that bit easier on the second.  The mount needs to be fitted flush with the underside of the original foor, so that the valences sit at the correct height, this makes it stand slightly proud inside the coach but I can't see that being an insurmountable problem when I come to refit the interiors, I might be able to just leave them as they are, or if they look too high, trimming a bit off the bottom at each end should be simple enough.

 

 

 

And coupled together, make sure you fit the valences to the correct ends of the coaches, they aren't the same!  And that beige plastic swarf/dust gets everywhere, I really should have dusted them down before taking the pics!

 

[JDW]

My rake is progressing slowly, I won't bother with more pics as (bar the first class stripe and buffet window layout) they are all the same.  However, rather than starting a new thread to ask this, I thought I'd post it here:

 

I was looking for some pictures and git distracted watching a few videos on YouTube.  This one at around 4:30 shows a 9-coach Intercity Mk 4 set formed DVT - FO - FO - Buffet - FO - FO - Buffet - TSO - TSO - TSOE - 91.  From what I remember, and what I can see from the videos broadly agrees, the sets were usually DVT - FO - FO - Buffet - TSO - TSO - TSO - TSOE, sometimes with one more either TSO, or an FO if it was a "Pullman" set.  Anyone know why there would have been one formed of so many FOs with two buffet cars?  (Notice the yellow stripes and the roof vents of the buffets)  I assume it was some kind of special or chartered set, but what for?  

 

 

(edited for clarity)

[JDW]

Another quick update (with apologies for the thread hijack!) on the slow moving project.  The interiors have been primed for some of the coaches, the parts are in stock to finish the rake apart from an FO.  The 91 and TSOE have had slimline Bachmann couplings attached, which surprisingly worked well first time, although the coupling mount and plasticard packing needs trimming back on the 91 to the width of the tension lock head, to allow the bogie to swing once the bottom of the fairing has been rebuilt.  As you can see, there's still cosmetic stuff to do too, move the numbers on the 91 (it will likely become 004 and named The Red Arrows) as well as add cantrail stripes and paint handrails etc on the ex-trainset coaches.

 

 

 

[WolfofBadenoch]

What diameter wheels are you using? I went to replace mine and found the originals were 13mm. Searching I can find 12mm or 14mm.

 

Some searching around has suggested they're probably 3ft wheels so i presume 12mm are the most accurate?

[lyneux]

What does the diagram book say for wheel diameter?

 

3ft is 12mm in 4mm scale (the one instance where the bonkers practise of mixing metric and imperial when quoting a scale actually helps!).

 

Guy

[sub39h]

What diameter wheels are you using? I went to replace mine and found the originals were 13mm. Searching I can find 12mm or 14mm.

 

Some searching around has suggested they're probably 3ft wheels so i presume 12mm are the most accurate?

Even if 13mm is the most accurate, wheels wear! So 12 representing worn wheels would be more accurate than 14mm surely?

[JDW]

They are 12mm, they are the same rolling diameter (tread diameter) as the original ones, but look a lot smaller as the flanges are much finer.  They are just standard Hornby replacement wheelsets (R8096)

[Adamphillip]

never thought about coupling them like that but I think I'll use that method

[GEOEng03]

Just wondered if anyone knew of a source for the PH Designs etching for the Class 91?

 

The web site has been out of stock for a while and would like to upgrade if possible. Not seen much on eBay for a while.

Cheers

[Pete Harvey]

God only know which website you are looking at for these ?

 

You have not placed an order for any! 

 

http://www.phd-design-etchings.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=25_28_63&product_id=100

[lyneux]

Pete, that'll teach you for having the same name as an outdoor gear manufacturer!

 

To be fair, PH Designs do make really good down sleeping bags.

 

Guy

[GEOEng03]

Hi Pete,

 

Thanks.  I'd been clicking on the earlier links from years ago and a google search (probably me) hadn't helped. 

 

The current site only has the side skirt etchings.  Does anyone know of any other suppliers of modification parts for the 91 and the accompanying mkiv rake. 

Cheers

[Pete the Elaner]

I think I saw some resin parts for Mk4 coaches advertised by Keen Systems, namely the end valances.

[MGR Hooper!]

I think I saw some resin parts for Mk4 coaches advertised by Keen Systems, namely the end valances.

Keen Systems does/did resin parts for these... but IIRC then don't do these anymore.

[Pete the Elaner]

Keen Systems does/did resin parts for these... but IIRC then don't do these anymore.

That's a little frustrating but not surprising. The nature of resin casting means it is suitable for limited production.

[GEOEng03]

Hi all.

Thanks. Will be ordering the etch sides this wkd and have seen the keen upgrades which look quite impressive, especially the blanking for the engine end coach.

 

One question is are these parts quite straightforward to fit.

 

Last point. What about the lighting kit available. Any experience in this being fitted. Done a voyager in the past, but this is a bit different.

Cheers

[JDW]

Scrolling a little way back through the thread will tell you that it is indeed Keen Systems who do the end skirts and couplings to fit inside them, a quick search on Ebay will turn up the skirts in single and multiple packs, the close couplings, the TSOE end moulding, and also ready made card gangway connections from another supplier, all as mentioned in my posts a short way up the page.  You'll also find which wheels to use if you're replacing the older Hornby ones.  I think you'll also find the answer to "are they easy to fit" in the series of pictures, all you need is a sharp razor saw, sharp knife, flat file, and glues of your choice, plus rattle can of matt black paint.  Disassemble coach, remove bogies (a pair of pliers from above may help here), cut hole for coupling (use instructions supplied to decide how far back it should be, you will need to put roof/end back on to measure this), neaten with file, attach coupling and pre-painted valence.  Nothing complicated, do the first one right, and then copy for the rest in batches.  Read my posts above a few times first.  I can do one in less than an hour easily.  

[GEOEng03]

Thanks for the response. Taken the plunge and I have ordered the bits.

 

See how I feel hacking brand new VTEC coaches and loco apart.

Cheers

[JDW]

Keep us posted, pop a few pics in here as you go - it's actually hard to make a mess of it as none of the cutting on the coaches goes near any of the visible/painted sides or roof.  If you're doing a VTEC TSOE, you might find you have to do a bit more than just paint the resin end black like on my Intercity versions, I don't know offhand whether the red wraps around slightly onto the end.  Otherwise it's little more than a few cuts to remove the floor and bogie-mounted couplings, some filing to get it square (as always, do a trial run first!), and reassembly with pre-painted parts.  OK, the loco and DVT inner end valences need a bit of work, but nothing more than a few bits of plasticard and some filing.  As for doing it to a VTEC set, I plan to do limited edition Battle of Britain 91110 after I've done the Intercity one...

[ChrisH-UK]

My rake is progressing slowly, I won't bother with more pics as (bar the first class stripe and buffet window layout) they are all the same.  However, rather than starting a new thread to ask this, I thought I'd post it here:

 

I was looking for some pictures and git distracted watching a few videos on YouTube.  This one at around 4:30 shows a 9-coach Intercity Mk 4 set formed DVT - FO - FO - Buffet - FO - FO - Buffet - TSO - TSO - TSOE - 91.  From what I remember, and what I can see from the videos broadly agrees, the sets were usually DVT - FO - FO - Buffet - TSO - TSO - TSO - TSOE, sometimes with one more either TSO, or an FO if it was a "Pullman" set.  Anyone know why there would have been one formed of so many FOs with two buffet cars?  (Notice the yellow stripes and the roof vents of the buffets)  I assume it was some kind of special or chartered set, but what for?  

 

(edited for clarity)

 

Didn't see anyone else answer on this thread. It wasn't a special, it was a Pullman set, from memory it was the Tyne-Tees (or Tees-Tyne depending on direction) but I may be mis-remembering. I don't recall seeing that set being used on any other service between its morning and evening runs but again I could be wrong.