Broadway Limited 2-8-2 running on DC

[highpeak]

On an impulse I bought a Broadway Limited light mikado at the Springfield show last weekend. Tonight I put it on my short test track and was frankly very disappointed.

First, the sound system annoyed me to the point I had to work out how to disconnect it. I removed the tender body and unplugged the speakers. Peace at last.

However, the running qualities left a lot to be desire. My power controller is admittedly an old MRC unit, but it works fine with everything else I own. This loco seemed to have a mind of its own, a sort of built in random inertia simulator. It would either run flat out or barely crawl, and the only way it would change direction was with the power pack turned off and then back on, simply changing the direction switch did nothing.

With the speaker plugged back in control was a bit better, although the starting voltage was extremely high, as the manual mentioned.

Frankly, this engine appears to be useless. I do not want the sound system because it does not sound remotely like a steam engine.  I have no desire to change to DCC as I don't really need any of its capabilities. I am not a great fan of the MRC controller, but it does the job with everything else I own so there is no compelling reason to buy a new controller. Has anybody else tried to run one of these engines on DC?

[roundhouse]

I havent tried running any of my Broadway locos on DC. However when I first got my UP Monutian, it usede to do similar things to your Mikado. It now does run Ok after oiling and running in. Whether this is a similar thing I am not sure but might be worth giving it a good run in.

 

Ian

[Grovenor]

If you don't want to run it on DCC just take the electronics out and connect the pick ups to the motor, should then run fine. If you want the lights you will need to create a new lighting circuit.

Keith

[Oldddudders]

Is it Blueline or Paragon? No experience with the former, and I only use DCC anyway, but Blueline did not have a very good reputation. If you want to moderate the sounds, bell, whistle etc BLI will sell you a gismo for doing that under DC conditions.

[highpeak]

The box says something about Paragon Series 2 (you can tell I really researched this one). It's the kind of thing that happens when something appears that is fairly close to a Maine Central steam engine, they had a small group of USRA Light Mikes, though the standard MEC Mike was quite different. But other than a couple of P2K switchers that would only really be seen at Waterville or Rigby, this is about the only game in town other than some heavy duty butchery to end up with only a rough approximation of a MEC engine.

The idea of stripping all the circuitry out has some appeal, though I'll probably spend some time with it on a rolling road first per Ian's suggestion.

One thing that really puzzles me though is why the direction changeover switch makes no difference to what it's doing and changing direction requires turning the controller off altogether.That doesn't seem to make sense, and nothing else I have does that so I don't think it's my ancient controller.

[Oldddudders]

I think this is the "fix" they have to use to get their DCC chip to operate under DC conditions. That said, I think on 12" : 1 ft railways, the driver probably does return the throttle to zero before throwing it into reverse! Paragon 2 is their latest range - my 4 Mikes are all Paragon 1. I see they've finally released a Pacific, too, after years of threatening.

[JWB]

I know that Blackstone warns to use its locos only on straight DC. Many MRC throttles have a pulse feature at low speeds, although the cheapest are in fact DC. I wonder if the erratic performance is  coming from using pulse DC. What model MRC are you using?

[Glorious NSE]

From memory reversing the direction with the throttle open allows you to manually blow the whistle on DC, or something like that, if you stop, then reverse, it should behave?

 

(I know you don't like it, but reconnecting the speaker whilst you do this kind of thing would give you some feedback of what the onboard electronics are trying to do?)

[highpeak]

I will try the business of trying to get the whistle to blow as you describe. That would make sense, because one snag with the old MRC controller (I think it's a Tech IV or something, I bought it way back in 1980 when I moved over here) is that it is leaks enough current for low-current motors to still be energised and, in some cases, continue to move the engine, even if almost imperceptibly. So if the engine "thinks" it's still moving and operating the direction switch is intended to operate some function of the sound module while moving, then it follows that it won't change direction. Off isn't actually off with some stuff.

I sense that I am going to need a new controller, which opens up a major can of worms for somebody like me who was quite happy with an old Hammant and Morgan Duette!

Thanks to all who have responded. My modelling has for years just been fiddling around with rolling stock and structures rather than actually building any kind of layout, so I am way behind on developments in the electrical/electronic world.

[JWB]

OK, yeah, if it's a Tech IV and locos will still creep with the controller off, that's what you shouldn't be using with DCC or sound locos -- and in fact, if you rewire, you'll still have a problem with the loco creeping! I would look into the MRC Tech 6, which will control both DC and a small number of DCC locos.

[highpeak]

I took a look at the controller when I went home at lunch time, it's a Controlmaster I. I think Tech IV came out around the same time, maybe why I got confused.

Anyhow, given that the controller isn't up to the job, I will need to part with some cash for a new one and will take a look at the Tech 6.

[Talltim]

On QSI chips on DC changing the direction while moving turns the bell on and quickly flicking the direction back and forward sounds the horn. Neither effect the direction of travel

[highpeak]

On QSI chips on DC changing the direction while moving turns the bell on and quickly flicking the direction back and forward sounds the horn. Neither effect the direction of travel

That, coupled with the fact that the controller has a current leak and so doesn't really shut off power until you turn it off, explains that odd behaviour.

 

Faced with a clear need to catch up with the 21st century, I am now pondering which route to go: stay DC or bite the bullet and look at DCC. I don't need to rush into anything since I am still doodling layout designs, but clearly I need to make some changes.

Once again, thank you for all the replies, they have cleared up a lot of what were to me quite odd things.

[Talltim]

I don't think your loco has a QSI chip, but it probably has similar control methods on DC

[alfsboy]

OK, yeah, if it's a Tech IV and locos will still creep with the controller off, that's what you shouldn't be using with DCC or sound locos -- and in fact, if you rewire, you'll still have a problem with the loco creeping! I would look into the MRC Tech 6, which will control both DC and a small number of DCC locos.

i use a Tech 6 .Its so useful as it runs DCC locos and DC .As I only have a small layout I dont need multiple running  .it does the job very well as long as  the decoders are the duel DCC/DC type .Its an elegant solution to a few sound equipped locos and a DCC/DC mix .You can  program on track as well .My sound equipped locos are all Tsunami equipped and my decoders Bachmann and TCS.

 

Martin

Edited January 31, 2013 by alfsboy

[Prof Klyzlr]

Dear HighPeak,

 

At the risk of coming to the party late, most of the symtoms you are seeing are indeed a factor of running a "power hungry" sound-decoder on analog.

 

I would reccomend a quick read thru some recent threads on MRH for a full rundown,

 

http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/10432

 

http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/8139

 

but the salient points are captured in the copied text below.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

 

 

COPIED TEXT BELOW

 

 

Some (not all) of the current DCC sound decoders will run on analog, and provide basic "prime mover" and "random occurance" (EG air release) sound. To trigger "triggerable" sounds such as the horn requires some on-the-fly dexterity with the reversing switch (BLI/Quantum/Revolution, I forget their specific name at the moment, just woke up) or a Aux "trigger box/throttle" as offered by BLI, MRC, and others.

 

If all you're looking for is a analog loco to go "rumble" or "chuff chuff" as it rolls down the track, just instal a Tsu or similar as you would a DCC sound install, and make sure to _enable_ the "analog running" mode.

 

Now, the caveats:

- sound decoders on analog need a significant ammount of volts at the track before they start making noise, let alone start moving. This can manifest as "the DCC-equipped loco doesn't start moving at as-low-a throttle setting as it's wired-for-analog equivalent"

 

- any DCC decoder needs to "work out" that it's on an analog powered track before it will "react correctly" to basic voltage level and polarity/direction changes. If the analog throttle is a "Pulse-width", PWM, or otherwise "not-flatline DC" output to the track, the decoder can interpret the low-level "ripple" (which may well be beneficial when crawling standard non-decoder-equipped analog locos) as "messed up DCC signal".

 

Result? At low throttle settings (like trying for a smooth slow speed start or crawl) some decoders will judder, jerk, or simply "not takeoff from a standing start smoothly". Once the analog DC signal gets enough volts to swamp the "ripple" or flatten out the PWM, the decoder _knows_ it's "on DC", and starts behaving "properly"

 

- side issue to above, this can sometimes make getting a reproducible switcher "crawl" out of a decoder-on-analog situation difficult... :-(

 

- given the 2 issues above in concert, a 3rd symtom appears. That is that the entire mechanical speed range of the loco is now compressed up into the top 1/2 to 1/3 of the analog throttle knob rotation. Once you've gotten into the groove of "the bottom half of the knob rotation is eaten up with just getting the decoder working", this is not surprising. However, it can "cramp" the speed range, making manually reaching and setting a given nominated speed difficult.

 

EG the accellerator/throttle pedal in you car has maybe 12" of travel available, to get from 0mph - 60mph.
What if we compressed that speed range into just the last inch of pedal travel (press thru 11" of "no response", then suddenly the car roars to life), and asked you to get-to and _maintain_ a steady 20mph? (Read: not easy)

 

- Now, things unfortunately don't get easier if we want to change direction!

If you just want to _stop_ the train, but have the sound keep happening (thinking "diesel stationary at audible idle"), then that "dead throttle knob range" will come in handy. Between 6-9VDC is usually where
- there's enough volts for the sound to work
- but not enough to get the decoder equipped loco to move
(Compare that to the stock non-decoder loco, which may well start moving on analog as low as 3VDC)

 

However, as discussed above, most decoders don't interpret a change in track signal polarity as a simple explicit "change direction" command.
(Some use such a change to trigger bells and horns, some ignore it).

 

SO, how do we _reliably_predictably_ change direction?

The most reliable way is to set the throttle all the way to Zero or OFF _first_,
change the direction switch,
then throttle back up.

 

This is logical and should present no issues for the regular analog user, they already do this. However, it _does_ make it impossible to change direction _and_ also keep the diesel idling throughout the direction-changing process...
(The biggest annoyance is likely that the decoder will not just "stop/start", but will possibly perform a complete "prime-mover startup" audio sequence every time the analog throttle is "throttled-up" from Zero/Off).

 

- Secondary issue: if the analog throttle has some "leakage" to the track even with the throttle speed control set to "OFF" or Zero,
(IE just a tiny bit of volts still getting to the track, not normally enough to move a normal analog loco),

 

it _may_ be enough to ensure the analog-powered-decoder never sees a true "OFF" power condition, therefore ignores any change in track/input-signal polarity, and therefore appears to _refuse_ to change direction.

(I have witnessed and demo'd this phenomenon with many BLI On30 C16s).

[highpeak]

For me, this party's just beginning as I look at doing a bit more than just tinkering with resin and etched brass kits, and I think you've pretty much summed up the state of affairs, Prof.

The question now seems to have become whether to remain in the world of DC, with another controller such as the Tech 6, or whether to move into DCC. I'm open to either, and took a quick inventory of the locos that would be used on any layout I might build. They range from apparently already DCC fitted to DCC ready to pre-DCC, but new enough and fairly commonplace so shouldn't present too many problems.

But there are also some probable headache cases: I have a couple of old Blue Box Athearn engines (GP7 and SW7) that I would want to run mostly for nostalgic purposes as they were my introduction to US railroads. I also have three B&M engines from the 70s (two PFM B-15s and a Sunset K-8) that have open-frame motors, along with an MDC ten wheeler that is slowly being hacked around to vaguely resemble a MEC O class.

From my readings so far on DCC (and I confess to being a total novice) I understand that the power feed to the brushes must be solely via the decoder. But I read somewhere that open-frame motors are "decoder killers". Is that because those motors are usually mounted so that one brush grounds to the frame and is thus a problem, or is there something inherent in that type of motor that doesn't work well with a decoder?

[JWB]

I think the main problem is that "decoder killer" is an imprecise expression! Certainly if a motor isn't isolated from the frame, with both wires to the brushes coming from the decoder, it will smoke the decoder! A smaller problem is that open-frame motors draw more amps than can motors, which mainly means you can't easily get away with mounting an N or even Z scale size decoder in a tight space if you're working with a high amp draw motor.

 

I started switching to DCC a few months ago. It appears to me that the cost of a DCC starter package like the NCE PowerCab, is pretty much equivalent to a Tech 6,  but you have more expandability if you choose to do more with DCC than just run a smallish number of factory equipped locos. For me, that was more cost effective, though the conversion will be a very long task.

[Eggesford box]

Hi,

 

somewhere I have got a DCC book from some time back when DCC was relatively new and DCC ready engines mich less common. It has the words and pictures on converting older Athearn engines to DCC. Obviously I cannot post it here for copyright reasons but hopefully I should be able to send you a PM in the next day or so.

 

Personally I would go down the DCC road for the flexibility of operations. Of course there is then all the decisions of what system to use. I would advise you to trawl through the DCC  section on RM Web. Personally I used to have a Digitrax system some years ago which 'played up' after some years so then I got a Lenz set up. Due to a change of circumstances I have not had much chance to play trains for the last three years. Setting up a little test track I found myself having to read through the manual again. On that basis ease of use would certainly be one of my key points on choosing a system if you do go down the DCC route. All is personal choice of course, if you look at the DCC section you will see some people swearing by one system and others swearing at it!

[CVSNE]

Broadway used a OEM version of the QSI decoders in these engines. They are, in a word, troublesome. Any time you try to "Get the best of both worlds" with a product (in this case DC and DCC sound) you usually end up falling short of the mark.

Same decoder was used in the True Line Trains CN 4-8-4 - perhaps the nicest plastic steam engine ever introduced to the US market - until you try to run it. Everyone was trying to rebuild pickups, wipers, and the like on that engine - the solution was simple, but pricey. It involved a pair of nippers, a trash bin (for the QSI unit), and a new Tsunami decoder. She runs like a champ now.

[highpeak]

Are you saying that even with a DCC controller the performance of the engine is still not going to be particularly good? Since all I have room for is a yard-to-storage kind of layout, good slow speed control is essential, the only time it would ever see any kind of speed is on a rolling road for running in.

[CVSNE]

Are you saying that even with a DCC controller the performance of the engine is still not going to be particularly good? Since all I have room for is a yard-to-storage kind of layout, good slow speed control is essential, the only time it would ever see any kind of speed is on a rolling road for running in.

I can't say unequivocally that it will not work well. Based on my experience, and those of a number of friends, I'd say you're going to find the thing just doesn't work well, or consistently. I've seen these things work fine one day, and the next not go forward; or jump start to high speed; or not run in reverse.

 

Replacement seems to be the best way I've found to prevent operational issues, especially with the OEM "dual mode" decoders.   

[CraigZ]

Broadway used a OEM version of the QSI decoders in these engines. They are, in a word, troublesome. Any time you try to "Get the best of both worlds" with a product (in this case DC and DCC sound) you usually end up falling short of the mark.

Same decoder was used in the True Line Trains CN 4-8-4 - perhaps the nicest plastic steam engine ever introduced to the US market - until you try to run it. Everyone was trying to rebuild pickups, wipers, and the like on that engine - the solution was simple, but pricey. It involved a pair of nippers, a trash bin (for the QSI unit), and a new Tsunami decoder. She runs like a champ now.

 

Post #5 says Paragon 2 which is absolutely not a QSI decoder.  It's Broadway Limited's own decoder made by God know whom.  My experience with them is less than favourable..they're easily confused on DCC, can be cranky to program as well...

[Oldddudders]

I can't say unequivocally that it will not work well. Based on my experience, and those of a number of friends, I'd say you're going to find the thing just doesn't work well, or consistently. I've seen these things work fine one day, and the next not go forward; or jump start to high speed; or not run in reverse.

 

Replacement seems to be the best way I've found to prevent operational issues, especially with the OEM "dual mode" decoders.   

Marty

 

It ill becomes me to question the experience of a Model Railroader staffer, but honestly, the QSI-equipped BLI product has been good for me since I first bought them nearly a decade ago. I only run DCC - Digitrax - but have never had the problems you highlight, with more than a dozen such locos, steam and diesel. Admittedly most have had upgrade chips installed, but not all, and neither QSI chip has had problems.  I believe the Blueline BLI product had issues, which was why BLI stepped away and headed for Paragon 2.

[JWB]

As with a great many things, trial and error, and trying it for onesself, are key. There's been a lot of progress in the hobby -- I'll take a hybrid 21st century steam loco over a 1970s Korean brass loco any day! But the more you get into the hobby, the more you have to blaze your own path.