Guest Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 The BR23 2-6-2, does anyone know why the boiler was pitched so high on this design? I cannot for the life of me work it out and the InterGoogle isn't being much help. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 The internet is generally slow-going for me today, as my ISP claims to be carrying out server maintenance and "upgrades".... The postwar DB Neubauloks were meant to be a further evolution of the DRG standardised designs. As far as I understand it, the Br.23 in particular was designed to be accessible for maintenance purposes. If you look at the frame section between the trailing drivers and the trailing truck, you will see that there is very little "dip" in the top line, compared to, say, the Gresley V2 - so the Br.23's firebox could not sit "deep". Also, the boiler barrel is steeply-tapered but on the bottom only (the barrel appears parallel at first glance), and this contributes to the high-pitch by the time you get to the smokebox section. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 The internet is generally slow-going for me today, as my ISP claims to be carrying out server maintenance and "upgrades".... The postwar DB Neubauloks were meant to be a further evolution of the DRG standardised designs. As far as I understand it, the Br.23 in particular was designed to be accessible for maintenance purposes. If you look at the frame section between the trailing drivers and the trailing truck, you will see that there is very little "dip" in the top line, compared to, say, the Gresley V2 - so the Br.23's firebox could not sit "deep". Also, the boiler barrel is steeply-tapered but on the bottom only (the barrel appears parallel at first glance), and this contributes to the high-pitch by the time you get to the smokebox section. Many thanks for that. Much is now explained. The link you've just posted on another thread leads to the very diagram for the BR23 that I was working from. I'd noted the taper on the bottom of the boiler barrel only (shades of Bulleid!) but the frame line had escaped me. I also found it intriguing that the firebox throatplate lies over the rear third of the last set of drivers, contrary to usual practice with wide-firebox-over-trailing-wheels designs. Looking at it afresh, I would guess that this was to keep overall boiler length/weight and therefore axle load down? The 23s always struck me as very modern-looking engines - the design just seems to scream it. I saw a rather lovely H0 scale rendition after Christmas in a model shop in Flensburg for about €285. I have a birthday soon, an indulgent wife and a very strong feeling of temptation... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 ..... The 23s always struck me as very modern-looking engines - the design just seems to scream it. I saw a rather lovely H0 scale rendition after Christmas in a model shop in Flensburg for about €285. I have a birthday soon, an indulgent wife and a very strong feeling of temptation... Axleloadings for the Br.23 were relatively low. I'd need to check my copy of Eisenbahn-Journal to confirm what they were. They were undeniably modern, but so were the pair of Br.10 pacifics, and the Br.66 suburban tanks. The problem was that these engines came out very late in the day (23 105 was built in 1959, the very last one of all), and were always going to be fighting for their place amongst the new electric traction. The Br.65 2-8-4Ts - just 18 of them - also deserved better. Roco have been making the Br.23 for donkeys' years; it originally came out in the late 1970s and has been consistently upgraded since then. I find their wheel flange standards a bit hit-and-miss, though. They will sometimes equip an engine with RP25 profile drivers, but then use bogie / carrying wheels with very coarse profiles.....which sort of defeats the object. Kitmaster also produced a Br.23....in 4mm scale! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 They were undeniably modern, but so were the pair of Br.10 pacifics, and the Br.66 suburban tanks. The problem was that these engines came out very late in the day (23 105 was built in 1959, the very last one of all), and were always going to be fighting for their place amongst the new electric traction. The Br.65 2-8-4Ts - just 18 of them - also deserved better. Roco have been making the Br.23 for donkeys' years; it originally came out in the late 1970s and has been consistently upgraded since then. I find their wheel flange standards a bit hit-and-miss, though. They will sometimes equip an engine with RP25 profile drivers, but then use bogie / carrying wheels with very coarse profiles.....which sort of defeats the object. Agreed on the first part! But then, the same could be said of the BR Standards. A working life of little more than eight years for some of them was criminally short. On wheels, I take your point. I see Weinert offer replacements - see online catalogue p.53. http://blaetterkatalog.weinert-modellbau.de/ They also offer rolling stock wheels in what they call RP25 Fine - for which I read Code 88. Coming back to the 23, I see the Roco model is tender drive, which puts me off a little. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allegheny1600 Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 Hi David, Ivan, Yes, the BR23 is a lovely loco and model! Another great admirer here. Don't worry about it being tender drive, I have a total of three and they all run just fine and will pull just great! My two west Germans are straight tender drive, my one 'Ossie' is tender & loco, how's that happen? (I know, just a newer model!). Happy birthday for when it happens, hope you get one. Pröst, John E. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 Hi, Ivan and John. Thanks for that. I must admit my experience of tender drive is pretty limited, not extending beyond those God-awful Hornby things that used to whine their way round the layout and could hardly pull (skin...rice pudding...etc.). I'll give it a try, bite the bullet and get one. The only problem is, there's something of a heavy call on my finances at the moment, and birthday money might have to go on the 3D Printing project I'm working on. Depends on how far I get with it when the great day dawns, I guess. Anyway, thanks for the info. Intriguing design, like I say, and I've learned a bit more about it today. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 Almost all of the German outline steam models are tender-drive, mainly because they found it worked well enough for them. With many of the Einheitsloks having open bar frames, there wasn't an easy way of designing and hiding a loco-based drivetrain, whereas those huge tenders could hide a multitude of sins. Even the specialist / Kleinserien kits like Weinert resort to tender drive mechanisms, albeit now with coreless motors. Oddly enough, Roco do also offer a belt-and-braces drivetrain in some engines: the reboilered (Neubaukessel) 01 Pacific, and SBB C5/6, both have tender and loco drive due to a cardan shaft which runs out of the tender, into the cab and straight through the backhead into the firebox! Ingenious, but not the way I would have liked it..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dick rowland Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 Moving away from H0, the Fleischmann N Scale Br23 is one of the best N scale steamers around. I have three, they are excellent. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted February 4, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 4, 2013 I have a softspot for 23s because among the last "proper" steam haulage that I experienced (1975: Crailsheim to Ulm). Only superseded by a 50 (or 52) on the GKB, a few days later. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 Oddly enough, Roco do also offer a belt-and-braces drivetrain in some engines: the reboilered (Neubaukessel) 01 Pacific, and SBB C5/6, both have tender and loco drive due to a cardan shaft which runs out of the tender, into the cab and straight through the backhead into the firebox! Ingenious, but not the way I would have liked it..... Nothing odd about it. 18201 and modern issues of BR 44 and 50 also have the same drive system. 16 Y type coaches prooved no problem for "the fastest steam loco in the world". On the layout of a friend I must add. I do not have that amount of space for a layout. Bernard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 ....I do not have that amount of space for a layout. Does anyone these days? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbishop Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 Moving away from H0, the Fleischmann N Scale Br23 is one of the best N scale steamers around. I have three, they are excellent. And, moving up in scale, Modellbahnwerkstatt are planning an O gauge model in 2014. Look at www.mbw-spur-0.de Team Track Trading have an account. Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
byron Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Axleloadings for the Br.23 were relatively low. I'd need to check my copy of Eisenbahn-Journal to confirm what they were. They were undeniably modern, but so were the pair of Br.10 pacifics, and the Br.66 suburban tanks. The problem was that these engines came out very late in the day (23 105 was built in 1959, the very last one of all), and were always going to be fighting for their place amongst the new electric traction. The Br.65 2-8-4Ts - just 18 of them - also deserved better. Roco have been making the Br.23 for donkeys' years; it originally came out in the late 1970s and has been consistently upgraded since then. I find their wheel flange standards a bit hit-and-miss, though. They will sometimes equip an engine with RP25 profile drivers, but then use bogie / carrying wheels with very coarse profiles.....which sort of defeats the object. Kitmaster also produced a Br.23....in 4mm scale! The axle loading on the 23's were infact quite high at 18.9 metric tonnes (Obermayer - Taschenbuch Deutsche Dampflokomotiven). They were in my opinion superb machines, and as they were fitted to be able to operate "push-pull" trains, very useful. Despite being built as a mixed traffic loco, it seems that freight was very much an exception in their day to day lives. Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 The axle loading on the 23's were infact quite high at 18.9 metric tonnes (Obermayer - Taschenbuch Deutsche Dampflokomotiven). That's still low compared to the "03" Pacific, which was itself supposed to be "light"....! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
byron Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 That's still low compared to the "03" Pacific, which was itself supposed to be "light"....! Hmmmm! The 03(einheitslok) had an axleload of 18.2 metrictonnes, the DB rebuild saw this increase to 19.2. The DDR "rebuild" may well have gone over this, but does not really enter into the equasion. The good news of course is that you can operate both classes over the same route, provided SWMBO accepts the argument! Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 I've been doing some more research. I'm sure you guys are aware of what I'm about to write and perhaps you can enlarge upon it. I was browsing through my copy of the Chapelon book Locomotive a Vapeur (English ed., of course) and came across a diagram of the 023 class. It's similar to the one in the link Horsetan posted but has weight figures on the axles. Like so (reading from the rear): l l l l l 16.75 17.06 17.06 17.06 16.75 14.75 19.06 19.06 19.06 12.75 Empty and loaded figures? Not possible. It that were so, the weight on the carrying axles would lessen in line with that on the coupled. In fact, that weight rises by six tons while that on the coupled axles falls by the same amount. I checked the entry. To quote direct from the book: - A Prairie, type 23, with two cylinders, 17/19 tons axle loading to suit rail conditions... I've checked around. It seems the weight on the coupled wheels (and therefore maximum axle loading) could be altered by transferring some weight onto the carrying wheels. Looking at the diagram and the one Horsetan linked to on another thread, there do seem to be some kind of equalising beams between carrying and coupled wheels. Two questions spring to mind: how did this system work and was it ever used? Fascinating class. Shows what modern steam could do if given the chance to show it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallarddriver Posted April 2, 2013 Share Posted April 2, 2013 Hello David, the special clue with the BR 23 is that she has umsteckbare Ausgleichshebel-Lagerbolzen so you can choose between 17 or 19 tons. In august the 23042 will be in my neighbourhood.So I can take some pictures and ask the driver how it works with the Lagerbolzen. Sorry for the german terms but I hope you know what I mean. Kind regards from the Rhinevalley Soeren Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 2, 2013 Share Posted April 2, 2013 Hi, Soeren. Many thanks for that. I'd guessed there had to be some such system but nowhere can I find how it works. So yes, if your friendly driver can give you a few hints, I for one would be very grateful. And pictures, did you say pictures? Now you're spoiling us. I'm sure we all look forward to seeing them. Best wishes from a (still!) cold Denmark. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted April 3, 2013 Share Posted April 3, 2013 ....umsteckbare Ausgleichshebel-Lagerbolzen so you can choose between 17 or 19 tons..... Equalised suspension bearings? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastwestdivide Posted April 3, 2013 Share Posted April 3, 2013 reversible or exchangeable or something like that? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted April 3, 2013 Share Posted April 3, 2013 Apparently it involves some sort of compensating lever.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallarddriver Posted April 3, 2013 Share Posted April 3, 2013 Hello, I found this I know all in german but the drawing explains it a little bit(hopefuly) Kind regards Soeren Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted April 3, 2013 Share Posted April 3, 2013 Oh, excellent! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallarddriver Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 Hello David, the 23042 will be in my neighborhood a little more earlier, on 15.6. So I will be able to take some pics then. I hope the weather good will be gracious. Till then Kind regards Soeren Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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