Rare Sighting of Clean Standard 5MT on Southern Region

[robmcg]

In all my reading of 1950s and 60s trains on the Southern Region I have seen precious few photos of clean Standard Class 5MT 4-6-0s.

 

With this in mind I renumbered Bachmann's recent 73109 to 73089 , as both had 1B tenders and were very similar so far as I know, although the former was built at Doncaster, with possibly a Darlington boiler, and the latter was a Derby build with a Crewe boiler.

 

Southern Region locos of this class must have been clean at least for a short time. 73089 was built in 1955, and was given an Arthur name 'Maid of Astolat' in 1959. She was a Bricklayers Arms loco for the first 4 years approx. so might have run London Bridge-Ashford-Dover-Ramsgate as illustrated here, pre-naming and pre-SR neglect. In the years 1955-59 I suspect that red-cream Maunsells might also have been used sometimes in this style. Soon I shall do a weathered 73069 conversion with green Mk1s.

 

Similar pictures of this 'converted' loco in a couple of other threads, apologies if you have seen them.

 

 

Rob

[Oldddudders]

By the time I saw Maid of Astolat, at Clapham Junction in 1960, she was probably green, I think. Incidentally, I think there were few passenger trains starting from London Bridge on this route - Charing Cross was the normal starting point, and Cannon St in the peaks. While there were the "low level" platforms at LB that permitted trains to run to the SE side, really London Bridge was much more a Central station for starting and terminating trains. There certainly were trains from LB to Tonbridge and beyond - but they followed the original South Eastern railway route via Redhill. None of that stops this being a fine picture, of course.

 

I do worry about your signalbox, though, which features in a number of different Rob scenarios, not all of which had boxes at all like that!

[robmcg]

Mea culpa for the signal box...   I blame Hornby, well, no, my own laziness!    Perhaps I should have described the train as a Charing Cross-Dover via Chislehurst but I perhaps thought, once again rather lazy of me, that the route was better described as London Bridge-Dover as per Ian Allan's ABC headcode descriptions.

 

I am very interested in finding which of the Standards received green paint during Southern Region years, I didn't realise that any of them did... 73080-9 and 73110-9.  Also keen to know what visual differences there are between the BR1B tender and BR1F  both being described as 7 tons but the latter holding an extra 900 gallons of water. Was it simply a longer, or wider, higher body?

 

I have bought but am yet to receive the recent BR green version 5MT 73049 which spent time at Bath Green Park so maybe it was borrowed for occasional Southern Region workings when going to and from Brighton or Eastleigh... I notice in the Irwell book of  that those which worked the S & D had left and right disc brackets on the smokebox front too, presumably 73049 would have?

 

Still to do a picture of a re-numbered weathered Bachmann Standard 5MT green Mk1s or Maunsells, probably Mk1s.... so it's all fun. edit; oops repeating myself.  I really do like this class of loco.

 

Many thanks for the extra detail about trains from London Bridge via Redhill on the SECR route as opposed to the various other ways to go across Kent. This adds a lot to my limited knowledge of the subtleties of steam days on the SR. Could you suggest any books in current print which might add to this, particularly the typical workings of the 1950s with N15s., Bulleids and any others.  I am particularly vague about the north Kent lines around Maidstone which appear rather convoluted on maps and wonder why most Ramsgate services for instance appear to have done via Tonbridge and Folkestone (or am I wrong there?) 

For instance, was the Maidstone and Otford line used very often for services to and from Ashford and beyond?

 

Cheers,

 

Rob  edit; I have Bert Hooker's book, also a R H N Hardy book, and Southern Counties Steam, as well as the Irwell 'Book of...(various)'. Also I note that many steam services ran from Victoria to Ramsgate via north Kent lines until 1959?

 

One problem I might have in photographing realistic late-BR era Standards is that much of the ex-LSWR main line had become flat-bottom rail by the early-mid 1960s  and I laboriously hand-made bullhead track a few months ago!

[PhilH]

I too am convinced that Southern named 5s remained in lined black and were never painted green.

[robmcg]

Certainly rust and grime is how they are mostly remembered!   I think I will use Bachmann's weathered 73069 as donor for one of the 'namers'. 

[Oldddudders]

The history of railways in Kent is one that I have a few facts about - though all a bit patchy. Until the Joint Management Committee was set up in 1901, the two companies, the South Eastern and the London, Chatham and Dover, had spent decades trying to out-manouevre each other by building strategic lines across the county. Thus by the time Queen Vic popped them they were both almost broke.

 

From Victoria and Holborn Viaduct the Chatham ran through the town of that name, along the North coast and to Ramsgate. It also had a branch from Faversham to Dover, as well as the line via Maidstone East to Ashford.

 

The South Eastern started from London Bridge and headed south to Redhill, where it turned both right - to Guildford and Reading - and left, to Tonbridge, Paddock Wood with a branch to Maidstone West, Ashford, Folkestone and Dover, as well as via Canterbury West to Ramsgate. Charing Cross and Cannon Street were slightly later additions, as was the direct line from Chislehurst to Tonbridge, avoiding Redhill, where the London Brighton and South Coast railway tended to be a bit obstructive, no doubt.

 

Both railways had suburban networks, and again some competition was evident - e.g. Catford and Catford Bridge.

 

The Southern did its best to serve this maze of lines most sensibly and economically, creating one or two new stations to improve the service offered e.g. a single new station at Ramsgate. So, as in Pre-Grouping days, there were regular services from London to Ramsgate via both Chatham and Ashford, and there are to this day. Maidstone East services were run to Ramsgate via Ashford and Canterbury West - the announcer at Victoria famously being misquoted with "Why kill 'em and cart 'em to Canterbury?" which was actually Wye, Chilham, Chartham, Canterbury West.

 

Until the big electrification schemes of the late 50s, early 60s, the juice rail only extended to Gillingham, Maidstone East & West, Sevenoaks (via Otford). Thus mainline steam was everywhere, but the South Eastern Division, as it became in 1962, was the first on BR to be free of steam.

[robmcg]

Thankyou for that most interesting reply, you have a nice knack for explaining the subtleties of such as age-old competition between railways of the Victorian era, spilling over even into BR days.

 

The pairing of the London Chatham and Dover and the South Eastern certainly explains a lot, with duplicate services to here and there. I suppose one or other of the lines in darkest Kent would have been ultimately gained ascendency in SR and BR days, or both found roles, not least for today's longer-distance commuters.

 

Anyway, I have photographed my Bachmann Standard Class 5MT 73069 and renumbered it 73083, a good Southern engine, and set it somewhere on the ex-LSWR main line... that signal box again..! From what I read these engines really did run well.

 

I have taken the liberty of added some discolouration here and there in accordance with BR Southern Region Directives pertaining to the aesthetics and presentation of named locomotives..  73083 was named 'Pendragon' in October 1959. I don't know if it was actually cleaned though! According to the Irwell tome, it was after a general overhaul at Eastleigh so one presumes so. Handwritten on BR form BR9637 "nameplate fitted PENDRAGON per E,leigh 16/10/59". My photo would have been during the preceding summer. 

 

edit; the lubricator drive rod appeared a little low at the valve gear end so I raised it.. and yes, I am aware that it is the short-reach type which probably wasn't fitted to the engine until around 1959...

 

 

Rob

 

 

[Middlesea John]

I'm positive that none of the Southern Region's named class 5s were ever painted green though, in fairness, it was usually difficult to work out what colour any paint there might have been.<br /><br />I spent a bit of time in the NRM just after Christmas researching a few things, one of which was green class 5s. This added to looking at photos in my modest collection of books brings me to the conclusion that the following were painted green though I don't have any information as to when they were painted.<br />73001 / 3 / 12 / 14 / 15 / 18 / 21 / 23 / 24 / 26 / 27 / 29 / 31 / 34 / 35 / 36 / 54 / 68 / 90 / 92 / 94 / 95 / 96 /97.<br /><br />Most of these were Western Region allocated, at least for part of their working lives and presumably when they were painted. Some certainly finished up on the Southern. I can remember seeing 73092 and 73094 which were definitely green.<br /><br />I hope this helps - there was a short item on the subject on RMWeb in 2010 where people were discussing which ones could be modelled by renumbering the Bachmann model.<br /><br />

[robmcg]

Thanks John,

 

There is also some interesting material about liveries in the Irwell 'Book of the BR Standard Class 5 4-6-0s',  p27.

 

Apart from Western Region-based engines painted green at Swindon or Wolverhampton, which were as you say 73001, 3, 12, 15, 18, 21, 24, 26, 27, 31, 34, 35, 36, 37, 54, 68, 93, 96, and 97,   ... these below received green at Eastleigh, Darlington or Doncaster; 73014, 23, 29, 32, 40, 49, 51, 90, 91, 92, 94, and 95. 

 

Apparently the latter were painted green because the Western Region was responsible for the shopping proposals, even if they were at the time working in other regions. After 1960 electrification warning flashes were specified but hardly ever applied  by the Southern or Western shops.

 

An example of the atmosphere of the time, 73014 was given a general overhaul at Eastleigh between Jan and Mar 1964 and was painted green,  possibly because the paint shop had the paint, and the owning region (Midland) was going to foot the bill...  and it might have amused the Eastleigh men to see the reaction of the Midland ... or possibly 73037 from the Western had been painted green the previous week, and someone just thought it was standard...

 

In any event I have 73049 ready for a photo soon, when I have finished with a weathered Hornby B17 'Manchester United' which doesn't show a lot of green through the grime!  Interloper in Southern thread alert...!

 

 

became

 

 

Rob

[robmcg]

just to redress the situation somewhat, here is a clean, green Standard 73049 with Bath shedplate 71G ..   but seen with LMR headlamps as it didn't receive green until late in its life when it was at Bath or Oxford, so the rear carriages may be a bit fanciful.. in any event I think SR locos often worked to Oxford.

 

It was an SR engine in a sense...   I put the extra lamp brackets on as a tribute to the people at Eastleigh who may have expected this engine to end up at Guildford.

 

 

detail from above...

 

 

Rob

[Combe Martin]

Just to redress the situation somewhat, here is a clean, green Standard 73049 with Bath shedplate 71G ..   but seen with LMR headlamps as it didn't receive green until late in its life when it was at Bath or Oxford.

 

73049 was repainted green at Eastleigh in 8.63 when it was a Bath Green Park loco, but Bachmann have dropped a 'lou lou' here because 71G was only the Bath shed code up to 23.2.58 when the loco was black.   Being repainted green in 8.63 it should have a shed code of 82F !

[robmcg]

Thankyou.    The devil in me says,"make 'em all 70C" !!   Although I doubt any green 'uns graced that particular 'end of the road'...

 

alternatively I could get my matt black paint out and leave it as 71G

 

Best,

 

Rob