locofan Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 Hello there, I have a DCC n gauge diesel depot and am trying to adapt turnouts for polarity switching. I'm ok with attaching d and e terminals but when it comes to the f terminal it just shorts out. I've modified the turnout (cutting the vee where required and soldering stock rails to switch rails etc but no luck. I even tried cutting the wires underneath the vee but no luck. Ideas greatly appreciated. Thanks Cameron Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 You should not need to cut the points. Peco code 55 points should work fine without any modifications. People say it is to prevent shorting but quite frankly if the wheelsets are that poor then short circuits will be the least of your concerns. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HLT 0109 Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 Cameron, Have you used insulated rail joiners on the V? If not, you will get a short no matter what else you do. Harold. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwrman Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 Hi, may I suggest buying a book such as http://www.amazon.co.uk/Newcomers-Guide-Model-Railways-Step-/dp/1857943295/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1363211807&sr=1-1 its very informative. Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Barry Ten Posted March 13, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 13, 2013 You should not need to cut the points. Peco code 55 points should work fine without any modifications. People say it is to prevent shorting but quite frankly if the wheelsets are that poor then short circuits will be the least of your concerns. That's my view as well. Cameron: it may not be much help to you, but here's my own set of mods for Peco points: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/17776-gulf-atlanta-eastern/?p=867345 As Harold says, make sure you've got the insulated rail joiners where required. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 I'm assuming by the reference to d, e and f that you are using Seep motors. If so then it is critical to get the motor aligned correctly (both along and across the direction of the track) and free from twist, otherwise the built-in switch either doesn't contact at all or produces a short circuit. There are various topics on here suggesting ways to get this right. I agree with other posters you shouldn't have to isolate and bond the switch rails in Peco N gauge, except possibly if you are using a more exotic method of frog switching which isn't mechanically linked to the movement of the points. Except in this sort of situation, switching the frog without isolating it is probably sufficient to get reliable operation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
locofan Posted March 14, 2013 Author Share Posted March 14, 2013 Cameron, Have you used insulated rail joiners on the V? If not, you will get a short no matter what else you do. Harold. Yes I have insulated rail joiners on the V Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
locofan Posted March 14, 2013 Author Share Posted March 14, 2013 Ok thanks for the feedback guys-I'm guessing I should stick with the method of blade contact to transmit power and make sure that the blades are scrupulously clean. Am I right? Cameron Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vonzack Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 Are you using Seep's? The D should go to say Rail A, E to Rail B, F to the point Frog. When do you get the short? When you turn the Command Station on - Most likely there is a wiring fault on your bus, you must have the A and B rails connected somewhere, or a set of frog rails that are not insulated properly. When you switch the point Does the Short stay until you switch it back - Again would imply a wiring problem with the bus or a non-insulated frog Does the Short occur and then go away - This is known as a 'micro short' and is probably down to an incorrectly aligned point motor. It's possible the frog is switching polarity either too early or too late while the point blade is still in contact with the opposite rail, so in effect you join rails A and B. This is one of the reasons you isolate the frog. As Edwin_m says, it's critical that the point motor is aligned correctly, get under the board and flick the actuator back and forth from underneath to check if the alignment is OK. Watch the washer attached to the actuating arm, make sure it makes good contact at each end of the throw. Switching from above the board is not the same. Hope you get it sorted. Cheers, Mark. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Barry Ten Posted March 14, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 14, 2013 Ok thanks for the feedback guys-I'm guessing I should stick with the method of blade contact to transmit power and make sure that the blades are scrupulously clean. Am I right? Cameron If you can come up with a regime for keeping the blades clean you would be fine but I must admit I struggled. I was having problems with conductivity even before I got around to painting and ballasting the track, which would only have made things worse. It did seem to be more of a problem with the short radius points but I never worked out why that should be the case. In general with wiring points, I try and proceed on a step by step basis so that the cause of the short can be identified immediately. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 Ok thanks for the feedback guys-I'm guessing I should stick with the method of blade contact to transmit power and make sure that the blades are scrupulously clean. Am I right? No, I would still advise polarity switching of the frog. It is the other modifications such as cutting and soldering the rails that I feel is unnecessary. I don't use SEEPs myself but this is how I think it should work. A, B and C power the coils. I assume these are working OK so we can leave them. D and E connect to the terminals of your controller (as do the stock rails of the track). F connects to the V of the point. If you are getting a short circuit, the first thing to try is swapping over D and E. If you still have problems, the next thing to check is whether you get a permenent short or only get it when the point is set in one direction. If the short is continuous then you have made a mistake somewhere and need to check your wiring and the rest of your trackwork. If the short only occurs when the point is in one position, it sounds like the switch in the point motor is not working properly. N gauge points only have a small throw so it is important to make sure the switch triggers correctly at exactly the mid-way point of the throw. I gave up on wiper-based switches for exactly this reason in N gauge and changed to using micro-switches. A bit more expensive and a little fiddlier to install but much more reliable in operation. If you want an easy (although not cheap) solution then Peco point motors combined with the PL-15 twin-microswitches work well. However it is quite expensive, you can almost buy a Tortoise for that sort of money. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
locofan Posted March 14, 2013 Author Share Posted March 14, 2013 up until I tried to wire the points via a polarity switch I had no problems bar occasional stalling of locos which was due to dirt inbetween the blade and stock rail. Insulated rail joiners are where they should be Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
locofan Posted March 15, 2013 Author Share Posted March 15, 2013 one final question-should I use peco point motors with pl-13 switches or use gaugemaster pm1s with switches Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PaulCheffus Posted March 15, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 15, 2013 one final question-should I use peco point motors with pl-13 switches or use gaugemaster pm1s with switches Hi Don't use the pl13s instead use pl15s. I have had no end of issues with them in the past my current layout has 60 code 55 points all with a pl15 and no modifications and it has been perfect for the last 8 years using DCC. Cheers Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 I will second that. I found the PL-13s so unreliable as to be worse that useless (they would actually cause shorts if they failed to switch properly). The PL-15s on the other hand work well although they are a little pricey for that they are. Still, if you do not have to many points to power, they are a good solution and have the advantage of plugging straight onto the motors which in turn plug straight onto the points. This eliminates the need to ensure perfect alignment which can be an issue with SEEPs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
locofan Posted March 15, 2013 Author Share Posted March 15, 2013 Hi Don't use the pl13s instead use pl15s. I have had no end of issues with them in the past my current layout has 60 code 55 points all with a pl15 and no modifications and it has been perfect for the last 8 years using DCC. Cheers Paul 60 code 55 points all with pl15s and no modifications? perfect operation with DCC? my email is c.johnston310@btinternet.com any other information is welcomed with open arms.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Barry Ten Posted March 15, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 15, 2013 I also couldn't get on with the PL13s (found them too stiff for reliable operation). The ten PL15s I've used on the fiddle yard tracks have all been OK although since I only need to switch the frog polarity I now use the Maplin type microswitches. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les le Breton Posted May 22, 2013 Share Posted May 22, 2013 Have a look at this website, there's massive amounts of helpful detail, I hope it's useful. http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches_peco.htm Hope it's useful for you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
locofan Posted May 23, 2013 Author Share Posted May 23, 2013 Have a look at this website, there's massive amounts of helpful detail, I hope it's useful. http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches_peco.htm Hope it's useful for you. Thank you-it looks very helpful Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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