Layout design help

[sub39h]

Hello all,

 

I am in the middle of designing my layout. I've gotten back into the hobby after seeing some of the models available last year randomly one day and falling in love with the 1934 Brighton Belle by Hornby. I purchased the 5 car set and intended on making a layout modelling a modern image fictional south London terminus and going to a seaside town. Prior to this I had no interest in SR and have no rolling stock from that area. 

 

The layout has evolved quite a lot in the last few months, the SR theme has been completely ditched and instead I'm going with what I know and love and that's ECML (with a hint of WCML and Midland Mainline) thrown in. Now the layout is based on a fictional northern London terminus (a mix up of King's Cross and St Pancras) and goes to a large northern city, stopping outside it's football stadium for which I intend on using a Subbuteo (or similar) corner section right in the corner of the baseboard to save me having to model the entire thing. (Those of you who have seen my B17 thread might know which city I'm referring to.) The era is early 90s, just prior to privatisation.

 

This is what I've come up with thus far:

 

 

The terminus on the left side of the plan is in London, and the area where the track splits on the upper section in the bottom right corner is where the northern city is. there will be two short terminus platforms added going into the corner for DMUs and the like. The terminus does need redesigning as well as I've decided to give it 6 platforms so that the canopies I plan on using are symmetrical. Otherwise I'd have an uncovered train in the middle. The sections faded out in the middle will be at a lower level but will be visible. I've not gotten my head around gradients on XtrkCAD yet so this was just to make it clear what's lower and what isn't.

 

Where I become stuck is this: I have a 10 car Eurostar train that I also want on my layout. I was planning on having it leave the terminus, disappear under the baseboard, go around a loop and come back just for effect. However I don't really know where (or if) I can fit this in. I want it to have it's own station approach but have access to all platforms. Similarly trains coming from the continuous loop should have access to all platforms. (If I had more space I would give the Eurostar a separate approach and platforms.)

 

I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions on how I could make this work. I've tried ditching the bit of track that forks off underneath after leaving the terminus but that doesn't give me enough space for a big loop to come back on itself in a way that allows me to hide the train from view. 

 

I also wanted a TMD somewhere near the London terminus with a turn table, as I plan on running preserved steam (including a fictionally maintained B17 as mentioned before). 

 

Help would be most appreciated!

 

S. 

[jon_1066]

Your levels are not working (or you have gradients like the Himalayas).  You really need to get to grips with gradients and levels as what you have at the minute will not work.

 

Another thing to consider are the storage sidings.  Where will you put these and get access to them?  

 

One thing worth avoiding is hidden points as these are where you will get derailments or stalled trains.

[sub39h]

Thanks for the reply. I'm not going to bother with a storage sidings area. There just isn't enough space. In regards to the gradients, it's obviously not clear from the diagram but in areas where it appears there's not enough space I'm going to have the higher bit go up as well as the lower bit go down. This works out to about to roughly to a maximum grade of 1:27 (I.e. less than 4%), but a lot are less than this. 

 

There will only be two hidden areas on the layout, which will be the far left side of the loop around the terminus, and the lower part of the reverse loop under the northern city. The other areas are on a lower level, but are to be fully visible. I plan to have the hidden areas fully accessible from underneath the baseboard. 

[Silver Sidelines]

As already indicated your gradients may be a touch optimistic.   If you are contemplating steam outline trains of more than three coaches I would say you need gradients of at least 1 in 40.  I am inclined (pardon the pun) to think also that 1:27 might well be a problem for three car Bachmann DMUs with a single powered bogie.  For my own railway I aimed at 1:60 and ended up around 1 in 56 (with 36inch radius curves).  Tight curves will make matters worse.

 

I trust this is not too negative.

 

Regards

 

Ray

[sub39h]

Hmm, that does give me some things to think about. The min radius on this layout is Hornby 3rd radius so 505mm or around 20". No tight curves make up the inclines however.

 

I'm not planning on much steam, and at any given time there would only be a maximum of 2 steam trains on the layout with only one moving at a time. I was planning on 8 car rakes though. What worries me more is that I plan on having nearly full length HSTs and 225 sets (I'm going to remove one TSO each). I am remotoring the Lima HSTs with new Bachmann 25 motors and plan on running power cars at either end, but for the 225 that obviously isn't an option. 

 

Just out of interest, the above gradients are given with the assumption that I need about 75mm loading gauge. If this is too much then I can reduce the gradients because I won't need to lower as much as I have anticipated. 

 

Thanks again. 

[Silver Sidelines]

Hello (again)

 

The distance between the top surface of the lower board and the under surface of the upper board is 2 1/2 inches (c63mm).  I am using Peco Streamline Code 100 pinned directly to the baseboard.  All my baseboards are 1/2 inch.  In a past life where I have had to minimise gradients I have used a thinner baseboard locally above the lower track.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Regards

 

Ray

[sub39h]

That's brilliant thanks, but it has just occurred to me that as such large parts of the layout are hidden, if I had a derailment or other issue I wouldn't have any space to put my hand to get things out again if I'm working to such tight tolerances. Looks like it's completely back to the baseboard on this one :-\

[Silver Sidelines]

Hello (yet again)

 

If you use an open framework rather than a solid baseboard it is amazing what you can get away with.  You might find some inspiration in some of these construction pictures and this

.

 

Regards

 

Ray

[sub39h]

Is that your layout? that looks immense! See I wanted to end up with something like that, large winding layout and lots of 4 track mainline but I won't have the space for that 

[Silver Sidelines]

Yes - there is still a lot of work to do, you can read more on my Blog and you can have a trip around

by Pullman!

 

Regards

 

Ray

[sub39h]

i've already done that, very very impressed! i just wonder whether what I want to achieve is far too ambitious for someone who is essentially a beginner. i'm one of those people who likes to run before he has learned to walk, but clearly your level of ability when it comes to design and implementation is far above my own and maybe i should scale back my ambitions for now. 

[Silver Sidelines]

I like challenges but yes you do right to plan.

 

If you look at my Flickr pictures you will see that I have started (but not finished) three large layouts.  I have a stack of Railway Modeller magazines with CJ Freezer 'Plans of the Month'.  I also have an old copy of CJ Freezer's Plans for small layouts. Don't be afraid to 'mix and match'.

 

I am stuck in the 1960s but I am sure there are new editions which will cater for the 70's right up to the present day.  I did all my planning on paper, 1/2 inch to a foot using rulers and compasses (with a big eraser).  Reading other threads here on RMweb there are now programmes available for use on the computer.

 

It is only by doing that you learn - and if you don't like what you have done well there is the opportunity to start again and correct any mistakes.

 

How exciting

 

Regards

 

Ray

[jon_1066]

How about something like this:

 

 

It is a simplified version of what you had.  It has the Terminus, a through station with two terminus platforms, a stadium in the corner, a TMD and some carriage sidings.  There is a continuous run and also a single track Eurostar line.  I have shown it elevated as a HS2 since these tend to get built above the existing lines (e.g. Shinkansen in Japan).  The gradients work for going below though instead. There is 80 mm clearance between the levels and falls of 1 in 50.  Minimum curve is R3 and most visible curves are R4 or greater.

 

Operation would be trains from the Terminus out to circulate on the through line.  Once you had enough watching it go by one way it terminates at the station and heads back to the terminus.  The Eurostar can go out and back on it's own line but would have to reverse back to the station.  A 10 car train will only fit in the center roads (though it can access all roads).

 

One benefit of this layout is that it can be built in stages.  The continuous loop could be built first and if you never built anything else it would still be fun.  You could then add the terminus and finally the Eurostar line.  This could be doubled as all the bends on it are R4 or you could add a reversing loop to it.

 

Good luck with your layout!

[sub39h]

That is cracking, thank you so much for taking the time to do that. It addresses a couple of the issues I was having on my previous layout in regards to "northern" DMU sets having to go past the London terminus to achieve a continuous loop. 

 

I've scrapped the previous design and started again, but your layout has done most of the hard work for me. I just need to tweak it a little as I am keen on having the reverse loop back to the terminus but there seems to be space for that if I run it up to the top corner and all the way around. A single track may be the way to go for the Eurostar, but again I was keen on having it hidden from view with a loop but again your layout design seems to give me space to do this. I also want the station closer to the stadium but again this is simply modified.

 

I massively appreciate the effort, you've made my life so so much easier!

[sub39h]

I just had to post again, you obviously have a knack for planning that I don't have, honestly I'm made up with your design and somewhat in awe at the same time 

[sub39h]

<p>Jon, may i ask what dimensions you've used for the room size? I'm having a play and I can't seem to fit in anywhere near as much stuff as you can in the same space. the room is 5.3m x 3.9m with an unusable corner in the bottom left measuring 1.0m x 1.3m </p>

[jon_1066]

I used the dimensions you just said 5.3 by 3.9 but didn't get the corner right.

 

I have modified it with the Eurostar below the level of the other tracks.  I have given it an illusion of double track by putting the single feeder line parallel with the loop in the visible section. I added a revering loop and I've also swapped the TMD and carriage sidings as the carriage sidings may be more useful at the Terminus since you can shunt these to build up trains whilst other trains circulate.

 

 

The problem could be train length.  The through station is pretty much max of 1800-2000 mm which is a seven to eight car set (?)

 

If you want the Scarm file PM me.

[sub39h]

i've been using XtrkCAD so far - is SCARM better? 

 

I've been working with a min platform length of about 2m so far. I want to run nearly full length HSTs and 225s on the main line, with a TSO or two taken out so that they're a more manageable length which works out to about 2m 

 

the new version is really nice. I've been having a go myself modifying your design on XtrkCAD but not gotten very far yet.

[jon_1066]

Scarm just happened to be the one I found first.  It's free and works pretty well once you get a handle on using it.  It also has a funky 3D viewer so you can add scenery buildings, signals, trees, etc and get a view of your proposed layout.

 

2 m long trains wouldn't quite fit on the up passing loop at the through station though should be OK everywhere else.  You could have a play to squeeze another 6 inches out of it or simply not use it as a passing loop for the longer trains.

[jon_1066]

An example of Scarm's 3D output:

 

 

If it was as easy to build the models life would be so simple!

[sub39h]

That 3D render looks lovely. I wish I was a blank canvas so I could pick up SCARM. I'm very stubborn when it comes to change. I've nearly finished my tweak of your layout. I extended the continuous loop over to the top left corner, added a DMU terminus for NSE trains as I felt the London terminus would be a little empty if it was only running HSTs and Eurostar, and moved the through station to the far corner, ditched a platform and made the rest longer. The single track of the reverse wye will be a big viaduct, just because I think it would look cool. This is what I've come up with thus far, with paint indicating what's missing:

 

 

The station approach will be under the top loop. The only thing I don't have that I wanted was a freight yard, but I'm willing to forego that and just have freight trains chasing their tail. You can't have everything in life. 

[Removed a/c]

How about something like this:

 

5 by 3.jpg

 

It is a simplified version of what you had.  It has the Terminus, a through station with two terminus platforms, a stadium in the corner, a TMD and some carriage sidings.  There is a continuous run and also a single track Eurostar line.  I have shown it elevated as a HS2 since these tend to get built above the existing lines (e.g. Shinkansen in Japan).  The gradients work for going below though instead. There is 80 mm clearance between the levels and falls of 1 in 50.  Minimum curve is R3 and most visible curves are R4 or greater.

 

Operation would be trains from the Terminus out to circulate on the through line.  Once you had enough watching it go by one way it terminates at the station and heads back to the terminus.  The Eurostar can go out and back on it's own line but would have to reverse back to the station.  A 10 car train will only fit in the center roads (though it can access all roads).

 

One benefit of this layout is that it can be built in stages.  The continuous loop could be built first and if you never built anything else it would still be fun.  You could then add the terminus and finally the Eurostar line.  This could be doubled as all the bends on it are R4 or you could add a reversing loop to it.

 

Good luck with your layout!

This is a great looking layout. Looks like it would be lots of fun to run.  

[sub39h]

i don't really get it but your layout just looks better than mine. i thought using yours for inspiration but tailoring it to how i wanted would make it worse, but i just seem to have ruined it again 

[greslet]

I've tried scram and xtrackcad, much prefer xtrackcad, as it has far more functionality. SCARM is also windows only, so won't run on my MacBook

[greslet]

Xtrackcad also talks to jmri panel pro and a track plan converts easily to an on screen DCC control panel, that's the main reason I use it, though I do like SCARMs 3d rendering