Are ground throws prototypical for the UK?

[Del]

I was doodling yet another of my maybe-one-day layouts, this time a 4mm scale terminus of a run-down, standard gauge light railway, so down at heel that even the Colonel wouldn't touch it, and as is often the case, thought turned to operation.

 

My thinking was that in a concern such as this, when a train arrives at said terminus, the fireman (or maybe a shunter) would probably do the coupling and uncoupling and also changing points, so I felt that manual uncoupling and point control would make sense. So thinking further led me to think that three-links or instanters would do for the stock, uncoupled with a hook.

 

But what about moving the points? I assume there would be levers of some sort in the yard, and the only operational manual levers I can think of are ground throws, such as produced by Caboose Indistries http://www.cabooseind.com/GroundThrows Are they prototypical for such a concern in the UK, or is there another operating lever available that would look better?

[chaz]

Usual arrangement would be for all points that would be travelled by passenger traffic to be worked from a signal box, and signalled of course. Goods only lines would be worked with hand levers. These two (on my exhibition layout, Dock Green) are typical but are in 7mm.

 

 

Hope that's helpful.

 

Chaz

[Gordon A]

Also the release cross over at the end of a branch line terminus would also be operated by the loco crew unless the release track is also a platform line.

 

There are also different designs of local levers depending on the era, area and location.

 

Gordon A

Bristol

[Salopian]

For one engine in steam operation signalling is not required. Facing point locks on passenger carrying lines are though. A groundframe released by a key carried by the train crew or in custody of station staff would control points, and their locks, which passenger trains would use. On goods only lines this is not needed though and all points could be operated by local levers.

[phil-b259]

I was doodling yet another of my maybe-one-day layouts, this time a 4mm scale terminus of a run-down, standard gauge light railway, so down at heel that even the Colonel wouldn't touch it, and as is often the case, thought turned to operation.

 

My thinking was that in a concern such as this, when a train arrives at said terminus, the fireman (or maybe a shunter) would probably do the coupling and uncoupling and also changing points, so I felt that manual uncoupling and point control would make sense. So thinking further led me to think that three-links or instanters would do for the stock, uncoupled with a hook.

 

But what about moving the points? I assume there would be levers of some sort in the yard, and the only operational manual levers I can think of are ground throws, such as produced by Caboose Indistries http://www.cabooseind.com/GroundThrows Are they prototypical for such a concern in the UK, or is there another operating lever available that would look better?

Its worth noting that even the good Colonel couldn't avoid the fact that British legislation mandated - not recommended - mandated all points travelled over by passenger trains in the facing direction be fitted with a facing point lock of some sort. Points only used by passenger trains in the trailing position and those only used by goods trains, light engines and so on did not require a separate FPL and therefore could be worked by a single trackside lever but if passenger operations were planned ground frames would be more likely.

[EddieB]

Not sure of the intended setting, but a couple of local prototypes spring to mind.

 

Both the Elsenham & Thaxted and Kelvedon & Tollesbury branches were operated as light railways on the "one engine in steam" principle.  On both lines points were worked manually by the locomotive crew using a key attached to the train staff.  The Kelvedon & Tollesbury used an Annett Key, for both the ground frame at Kelvedon Low Level (which among other things controlled a three-way point) and point levers on the rest of the line.  The Elsenham & Thaxted used a Hodgson Key (which I guess is like an Annett Key, but different).

 

Contemporary photographs from both lines show point levers, their tops painted white, set in small blocks attached to the point mechanism.

 

Of course similar arrangements applied to remote sidings not under the control of a signal box. 

 

Here is a key-operated point mechanism on the Colne Valley Railway, which would have come from a local source.  However there is no point lever in this example.  The key has been inserted in the opposite side of the "box" from the point, allowing the staff member to throw the point.

 

[Oldddudders]

One interesting variation to the hand-point issue was a thing called a spring-handle. This required you to pull the lever as normal, but then you stood on a treadle, and that held the points over while the train passed. Once the train had gone, you stepped off - and the points reset to their original position. This installation was for the access road at Grove Park depot, where the normal lie of the points took the train through the washer, but if you just wanted to berth it, pull the points which then took it into the shed area. It was alright until the evening in 1976 when Danny the shunter failed to maintain his balance on the treadle - and the points reset under the second coach of 10. Bums! 3 bogies on the dirt, and as the back of the train was blocking the Down Local, and there were a number of evening peak trains in rear, this was not helpful.

[Gordon A]

Eddie,

 

If there is no point lever then how does the staff member throw the point?

 

Gordon A

Bristol

Not sure of the intended setting, but a couple of local prototypes spring to mind.

 

Both the Elsenham & Thaxted and Kelvedon & Tollesbury branches were operated as light railways on the "one engine in steam" principle.  On both lines points were worked manually by the locomotive crew using a key attached to the train staff.  The Kelvedon & Tollesbury used an Annett Key, for both the ground frame at Kelvedon Low Level (which among other things controlled a three-way point) and point levers on the rest of the line.  The Elsenham & Thaxted used a Hodgson Key (which I guess is like an Annett Key, but different).

 

Contemporary photographs from both lines show point levers, their tops painted white, set in small blocks attached to the point mechanism.

 

Of course similar arrangements applied to remote sidings not under the control of a signal box. 

 

Here is a key-operated point mechanism on the Colne Valley Railway, which would have come from a local source.  However there is no point lever in this example.  The key has been inserted in the opposite side of the "box" from the point, allowing the staff member to throw the point.

 

K12014.jpg

[Del]

Thanks for all the replies. Would the rules regarding FPLs be different if the line were a tramway, such as Wantage or Selsey?

[EddieB]

Eddie,

 

If there is no point lever then how does the staff member throw the point?

 

Gordon A

Bristol

With a certain amount of pushing and pulling...

[The Stationmaster]

Here is a key-operated point mechanism on the Colne Valley Railway, which would have come from a local source.  However there is no point lever in this example.  The key has been inserted in the opposite side of the "box" from the point, allowing the staff member to throw the point.

 

K12014.jpg

I'm a bit confused by your description there Eddie - the point is clearly rodded to something with the drive off the second strectcher coming out at the bottom edge of the picture and the FPL rodding coming out to the left - no sign of a hand lever box (which would be where the detectors are mounted on the far side or at the nearer end of the same two timbers.  All of which indicated that the point is either worked from a signalbox or a ground frame and a movement is being handsignalled for some reason (probably because the FPL bolt is not engaged - which looks to be the case - so the signal can't be cleared).

 

As far as runround release crossovers are concerned there were in the past basically three ways of working them in the past -

1. From the signalbox through rodding, or

2. Locally by means of a ground frame (released from the signalbox either electrically using an electric circuit to operate a key release instrument and then using the key to unlock the ground frame, or releasing teh ground frame mechanically via a rodding run), or

3. Providing a Facing Point Lock (FPL) worked by a rodding run from the signalbox and using an ordinary hand lever - as seen in Post No.2 above - to throw the point  (this method was far less common than the other two.

 

However if the release crossover/points could be kept clear of the area used by the passenger trains then there was nothing to prevent an ordinary hand lever being used and this would suit the sort of thing a light railway might do.  BUT, repeat, not where the passenger trains would run.

 

If it was where passenger trains ran the points - as already noted - required an FPL but that, and the point, could be operated by a key incorporated in the train staff.

[Armchair Modeller]

Thanks for all the replies. Would the rules regarding FPLs be different if the line were a tramway, such as Wantage or Selsey?

I am no expert, but Tramways operated very differently to railways and were not subject to railway legislation and regulations.

 

Early tramways required their own Act of Parliament , just like railways. After the Tramways Act, authorisation for tramways was passed to the Board of Trade, so no act of parliament was required. This made it cheaper for tramways to be promoted. Once the Light Railways Act came in some tramways were authorised under this legislation instead. Also, some existing railways and "tramways" voted to come under the Light Railways act.

 

The Wantage Tramway, for example, was built as a Tramway, which was cheaper than getting an Act of Parliament to build a railway. The Swansea & Mumbles was built under an Act of Parliament, but eventually came under the Tramways banner, if I remember correctly.

 

Tramways were looked at in detail by the Board of Trade and approved by them before opening. The BoT also looked at accidents in a similar way to railways.

 

I don't think facing point locks were ever a standard feature of tramways. Pointwork was supposed to be traversed at very low speed - normally 5mph I read somewhere. There were individual examples where facing point locks were introduced to allow higher speeds. The Swansea & Mumbles introduced them when it was electrified and turned into a rapid interurban tramway.

 

As far as I can tell, the Wantage Tramway never had facing point locks, though most photos date from very early or after passenger traffic ceased, so it is difficult to be absolutely sure.

 

It would be interesting to get a more expert view on this as I too am interested in the subject.

[EddieB]

I'm a bit confused by your description there Eddie - the point is clearly rodded to something with the drive off the second strectcher coming out at the bottom edge of the picture and the FPL rodding coming out to the left - no sign of a hand lever box (which would be where the detectors are mounted on the far side or at the nearer end of the same two timbers.  All of which indicated that the point is either worked from a signalbox or a ground frame and a movement is being handsignalled for some reason (probably because the FPL bolt is not engaged - which looks to be the case - so the signal can't be cleared).

 

As far as runround release crossovers are concerned there were in the past basically three ways of working them in the past -

1. From the signalbox through rodding, or

2. Locally by means of a ground frame (released from the signalbox either electrically using an electric circuit to operate a key release instrument and then using the key to unlock the ground frame, or releasing teh ground frame mechanically via a rodding run), or

3. Providing a Facing Point Lock (FPL) worked by a rodding run from the signalbox and using an ordinary hand lever - as seen in Post No.2 above - to throw the point  (this method was far less common than the other two.

 

However if the release crossover/points could be kept clear of the area used by the passenger trains then there was nothing to prevent an ordinary hand lever being used and this would suit the sort of thing a light railway might do.  BUT, repeat, not where the passenger trains would run.

 

If it was where passenger trains ran the points - as already noted - required an FPL but that, and the point, could be operated by a key incorporated in the train staff.

I think I should have confined my comments to the two Essex light railways and ignored current operations on the CVR, as it has clearly(!) muddied the waters.

 

All I can say is that the point was operated by inserting a key instrument into the back of the control box (behind where the man was standing), allowing the point to be moved and locked into position.  Is that just describing an FPL arrangement?  Given the effort that was needed to set the points into the crossover position, I thought the points were being worked manually, but may have been just a manual work-around if there was a problem with the rodding.  Certainly having a ground signal should indicate remote operation of the points.

 

The other thing to mention is that the photo was taken on a day that has gone down in legend on the CVR.  As can be seen, there is a light scattering of snow on the track and track bed.  This was a very cold Saturday just beffore Christmas 2010 when the railway was running Santa specials.  Nearly everything that could froze up, there was a heavy fall of snow later during the afternoon and many of the staff and volunteers were stranded at the railway.  That might possibly explain manual working of points that would normally operate from the signal box, perhaps?

[The Stationmaster]

I think I should have confined my comments to the two Essex light railways and ignored current operations on the CVR, as it has clearly(!) muddied the waters.

 

All I can say is that the point was operated by inserting a key instrument into the back of the control box (behind where the man was standing), allowing the point to be moved and locked into position.  Is that just describing an FPL arrangement?  Given the effort that was needed to set the points into the crossover position, I thought the points were being worked manually, but may have been just a manual work-around if there was a problem with the rodding.  Certainly having a ground signal should indicate remote operation of the points.

 

The other thing to mention is that the photo was taken on a day that has gone down in legend on the CVR.  As can be seen, there is a light scattering of snow on the track and track bed.  This was a very cold Saturday just beffore Christmas 2010 when the railway was running Santa specials.  Nearly everything that could froze up, there was a heavy fall of snow later during the afternoon and many of the staff and volunteers were stranded at the railway.  That might possibly explain manual working of points that would normally operate from the signal box, perhaps?

I can't see any sign of any sort of key release instrument but it could of course be out of shot to one side (in theory it should be nearer the viewpoint as the point rodding comes towards that area).  It looks as if nothing has been done to try to unfreeze anything which is frozen with the FPL bolt clearly standing 'out' which means the signal can't be cleared because the detector won't move (interestingly the detector only detects the FPL, not the points - but all quite logical) and the handsignalman is flagging the signal.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if it had been necessary to bar the points to help them over although there is no sign of a bar (but it could well be on the ground on the side nearer camera which is where it would have been used).  Perhaps they need a lesson in how to deal with frozen points as those won't be much better if some tries again to move them.

[tranby]

I think there is a point clamp (big version of the familiar G variety) just visible near the stretcher on the far blade being used as a substitute for the inoperative FPL,presumably padlocked, to lock the blade against stock rail ,preventing blade movement when traversed in the facing direction.

[Fay Singpoint]

Here is a key-operated point mechanism on the Colne Valley Railway, which would have come from a local source.  However there is no point lever in this example.  The key has been inserted in the opposite side of the "box" from the point, allowing the staff member to throw the point.

 

 

 

Things do look a bit wrong in the photo unless it's some sort of temporary arrangement/work in progress 

 

• The detector rod to the open switch is missing/not installed
• The drive assembly is all wrong as an adjustable final drive rod has been used instead of the correct fixed (extended) drive stretcher bar.
• The turnout is missing its No2 stretcher bar.

 

Depending on what rule book they are using I'm surprised that a yellow flag is being used as AFAIK in semaphore areas you only use yellow at a stop signal that has a distant arm. So I would expect a green flag to be used?????

[The Stationmaster]

 

 

Things do look a bit wrong in the photo unless it's some sort of temporary arrangement/work in progress 

 

• The detector rod to the open switch is missing/not installed
• The drive assembly is all wrong as an adjustable final drive rod has been used instead of the correct fixed (extended) drive stretcher bar.
• The turnout is missing its No2 stretcher bar.

 

Depending on what rule book they are using I'm surprised that a yellow flag is being used as AFAIK in semaphore areas you only use yellow at a stop signal that has a distant arm. So I would expect a green flag to be used?????

A yellow handsignal is used for passing any stop signal which has to be flagged (and that has been the case since the late 1980s when we - yes, I was actually involved in the Rule Book rewrite and was one of those who proposed the change - altered the Rules to give a consistent flag indication at any stop signal passed at danger whether it be colour light or semaphore).  So either that Railway is using a fairly up-to-date set of Rules or he had the wrong flag.

 

I suspect the detector is only meant to detect the points one way (or at least I hope that is the case!) but I do wonder if you went there now what sort of stretcher bar arrangement would be present (I could hazard a guess ).

[Fay Singpoint]

Continuing 

I suspect the detector is only meant to detect the points one way (or at least I hope that is the case!) but I do wonder if you went there now what sort of stretcher bar arrangement would be present (I could hazard a guess ).

 

That doesn't sound right for the detection of the points  . Where detection is provided (as here) on passenger lines you detect that one switch is correctly closed and the other correctly open, as well as the points are bolted.

 

That drive set-up is a bit Heath-Robinson....

 

But we're wandering off topic............... 

[EddieB]

I think there is a point clamp (big version of the familiar G variety) just visible near the stretcher on the far blade being used as a substitute for the inoperative FPL,presumably padlocked, to lock the blade against stock rail ,preventing blade movement when traversed in the facing direction.

Yes, such a clamp was attached/tightened prior to flagging the locomotive through the crossover (below), visible as a cross-shaped lever in the original photo. 

 

[Del]

Looks like I've found an answer (or part of) regarding tramways, specifically the Selsey.

From http://www.hfstephens-museum.org.uk/other-railways/selsey-tramway-in-its-last-days.html I've found this:

No fixed signals are provided and the whole of the points are hand worked on the ground without facing point bolts in the running line. Presumably if the West Sussex certificate were in force and the line inspected by the Ministry - which it never has been - this requirement would have to be met.

Also, this picture seems to show a lever similar to a ground throw, with no obvious FPL: http://www.colonelstephenssociety.co.uk/Selsey%20loco_s.jpg-for-web-large.jpg

 

So, it looks like a case of 'what we can get away with'!

[phil-b259]

 

Depending on what rule book they are using I'm surprised that a yellow flag is being used as AFAIK in semaphore areas you only use yellow at a stop signal that has a distant arm. So I would expect a green flag to be used?????

The rules regarding hand signalling on today's national network are as follows.

 

At stop signals a proceed hand signal is given by a yellow flag / lamp - even if the signal concerned is a two aspect red / green colour light or a red / green semaphore.

 

At distant / repeater signals only capable of showing yellow or green aspects, the hand signaller must always display a yellow flag / lamp to approaching trains.

 

In short Green flags / lamps must NEVER be used by hand signallers.

 

The only situation where a driver would be shown a green hand signal is at a level crossing which has been taken under local control (due to a failure or during engineering work for example) and is simply to tell the driver that the barriers are down, etc and it is now safe for the train to proceed over the crossing.

 

This situation away from the national network however is mixed with many railways favouring the traditional approach (I.e. a red / green signal uses red / green flags).

[The Stationmaster]

Looks like I've found an answer (or part of) regarding tramways, specifically the Selsey.

From http://www.hfstephens-museum.org.uk/other-railways/selsey-tramway-in-its-last-days.html I've found this:Also, this picture seems to show a lever similar to a ground throw, with no obvious FPL: http://www.colonelstephenssociety.co.uk/Selsey%20loco_s.jpg-for-web-large.jpg

 

So, it looks like a case of 'what we can get away with'!

Correct - Light Railways were required to have Facing Point Lock bolts at facing points on passenger lines although they were not required to have a locking (depression) bar on such points provided that the levers operating the points were immediately adjacent to them.