Bachmann 4-CEP lighting query

[exet1095]

Hello,

 

Taking advantage of the Hattons £69 Bachmann 4-CEPs, I have bought one to run as a trailer unit, substituting the powered motor car for an unpowered one. The spare motor car chassis is going into another project. Could anyone please help me set it up so that the lights work. I notice that every wheel has pick-ups, but the lights only work when the unit is coupled together with the motor coaches at each end. What is the easiest way of getting juice to the lights?

 

Many thanks,

 

Paul

[exet1095]

Just to add to this, I have wired the bogie pickups of the TC to the through writing, but only that coach and the adjacent unpowered motor coach light up, and only in one direction. No headecode illumination either.

 

There are loads of electrical components in the circuit boards under the interior of each coach, but no explanation, so I am a bit stumped!

 

On the bright side, my other 4-CEP has no problem either pushing or pulling it.

[Bulleidboy]

Hi Paul

 

The circuit board in the motor car contains a bridge rectifier which feeds the lighting circuits (for both DC and DCC), so if you have just swapped that car for an unpowered one the circuit board in the latter probably doesn't have the correct components (I have tried to draw a circuit diagram for the motor car but haven't looked at any of the others closely).

 

As the orientation of the coaches (but not their position in the rake) affects the lighting then just swapping the coaches will mean that your unpowered substitute has its coupling contacts on the wrong connections as it will now be pointing in the opposite direction to normal.  You could try swapping the red and black wires round in this coach but does the circuit board have the necessary components anyway??

 

Alternatively, it could be worth taking the circuit board out of your (now unused) motor car and putting that into the unpowered substitute.

 

Will try a couple of permutations next time I'm using my layout and post the results.

 

Mike

[Stevelewis]

For info  only  the power  car  actually COLLECTS  power the  wheels on the 3  unpowered cars simple  return the power to the circuit to enable internal  and end car indicator light work. 

 

If you set the 4 car unit on the  track  apply  power  then  lift  the powered car up so no wheels are in contact  you will note  that  the motor does not  work!  Also the  lights in the other 3 cars  go out!

 

This  was  discussed  at  length  when  the 4 CEP  was  first   launched  as  it  did  cause  some  queries  as  severall sources  did state ' picks up power on ALL wheels'

 

The wheels of the  3  unpowered  cars provide a  return route for the power, this enabled  the unit to be designed with  power connections  between cars ( the  coupling  bars) only  requiring 2  'wires',  so a simpler perhaps more durable connection, than Hornby's system of 4 wiresin the couplings of  the 5 BEL & 4 VEP both of which do not have  return via  wheels in the trailers.

Edited April 1, 2013 by Stevelewis

[exet1095]

Thanks Mike and Steve. I couldn't find much on this, and am a bit baffled. I can see how to get each coach to pick up power independently, but that would leave the lighting working in only one direction. Still, doing that would allow me to use Hornby close couplers as I notice the A version of the CEPs only has long coupling bars...

 

I look forward to your diagrams Mike. Meanwhile Steve, it looks like the wheels on all the trailing cars, although supplied with pick-ups, are actually totally isolated, certainly on the TCK and unpowered DMBS.

 

Thanks again,

 

Paul

[Stevelewis]

Thanks Mike and Steve. I couldn't find much on this, and am a bit baffled. I can see how to get each coach to pick up power independently, but that would leave the lighting working in only one direction. Still, doing that would allow me to use Hornby close couplers as I notice the A version of the CEPs only has long coupling bars...

 

I look forward to your diagrams Mike. Meanwhile Steve, it looks like the wheels on all the trailing cars, although supplied with pick-ups, are actually totally isolated, certainly on the TCK and unpowered DMBS.

 

Thanks again,

 

Paul

If   you power up the  4 car  unit  with  lights  on but  stationery (assuming  you are  using digital) then raise up from the  track so no wheels make  contact one of the trailer cars you will see that  the lights go out thus indicating  the wheels are not isolated  and do in fact perform the  function I described previously.

 

The lighting  functions  of the unit  did prove rather perplexing in the initial few weeks of the CEPs release, but  we finally manged to understand how  it  is  set  up

 

If you disassemble the  cars  make  sure  that  when  you re- assemble, that  there  is  a good contactt  between the   brass  strips ( bend them to increase pressure if nescessary)

[exet1095]

Not digital, analogue for me. I am just tying to get the lights to work any time there is power in the track in either polarity. This is with two dummy MBSs. I am intending to use the powered chassis to create another unit from Replica Railways parts...

 

Cheers,

 

Paul

[BR(S)]

Can I just slightly hijack this thread and ask if anyone with a Platform 5 or Ian Allan number book could please list the number order of coaches for 4-CEP number 7113.  According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_411), different batches of 4-CEPs were ordered in different ways, with some TCs and TSs being next to even numbered DMBSOs and some next to odd numbered ones.  If the Wikipedia page is correct, 7113 should be ordered in a different way to that shown on the Bachmann instructions.

 

I've just purchased a 4-CEP that looks like it has the lighting wiring incorrectly done and want to check which way round the coaches should go on 7113 before I start correcting it.    

Edited April 16, 2013 by BR(S)

[meld]

BR(S),

 

RCTS 'BRCS 1980' Lists 4CEP 7113 as 61309 - 70305 ( TC )  - 70262 ( TS ) - 61308.

 

HTH

 

Mike

[BR(S)]

Thanks.  That makes it in the same order as the Bachmann instructions.  If I've read the Wikipedia page correctly, 7113 should have the TC and TS the other way round.  I'll go with the RCTS source as more reliable though!

[exet1095]

Any ideas on the lighting..?

 

Thanks

[royaloak]

you trust Wikepedia?

 

While it can be useful for general information I wouldnt trust it to that extent.

[BR(S)]

you trust Wikepedia?

 

While it can be useful for general information I wouldnt trust it to that extent.

 

No . . . and the above is specifically about me not trusting Wikipedia; I've asked for clarification on RMweb in #8 and gone with the alternative source in #10!

Edited April 19, 2013 by BR(S)

[broadbent]

May I add a further question?

My two middle coaches light up, and the two end coaches light their headcodes but not the interior lights. All works under DCC.

 

Any ideas?

[Bulleidboy]

Any ideas on the lighting..?

 

Thanks

 

Hi Paul

 

Sorry - forgot about your enquiry!

 

Anyway, having both power cars in pieces at the moment........................

 

It doesn't appear possible to simply swap the circuit boards as they have fixing holes in different places and also the contacts for the bogie pick-up are wider apart for the motorised bogie.

 

This is my version of the wiring in the non-motor driving coach

I'm not sure what the component labelled "Z3" is - possibly a zener diode??  Hopefully someone else looking at this thread may be able to comment?

 

On the circuit board, if you short the contact marked "R LED -" to either of the pick-up contact strips, then the route indicator LED lights up but only in one direction but I think you have already got that far.

 

Sorry this doesn't help you

 

Mike

[Bulleidboy]

May I add a further question?

My two middle coaches light up, and the two end coaches light their headcodes but not the interior lights. All works under DCC.

 

Any ideas?

Hi Broadbent

 

Do you mean that all headcodes and interior lights all work correctly under DCC but not when using DC??

 

Or, when using DCC you get the above problem??

 

Mike

[Colin Greenaway]

May I add a further question?

My two middle coaches light up, and the two end coaches light their headcodes but not the interior lights. All works under DCC.

 

Any ideas?

Did you ever get a reply or sort this problem out? I have just put my 2nd. 4 CEP on the track and it has the same problem. DCC sound fitted green unit with the small yellow warning panels. My other unit fitted with the same sound decoder works just fine.

[FJ1701]

My Bachmann cep is DCC Fitted and works perfectly however I have the same issue where the lights only work on the inner two coaches. The two outer cars being the power and trailer do not have working interior lights, only headcodes. Any help would be appreciated, cheers

 

Rory

[RFS]

Have you connected all the coaches in the correct order? F0 and F1 control head-codes and interior lighting independently and if the coaches are not connected in the right order you can have this effect. 

 

If both F0 and F1 are on you should see the interior lights on in the motor coach at least, as there are no other connectors to affect this.

 

But do also bear in mind the motor coaches at each end have very weak lighting, and in bright daylight it's sometimes not obvious that they are on. There are LEDs only at one end and there are reflective strips which are supposed to spread light through the whole coach, but it doesn't work well. Very poor design from Bachmann which thankfully they did not replicate on the 4-TC which is dazzlingly bright all the way through the unit.

 

I now run my 4CEPs just with head code lights on. 

Edited May 9, 2018 by RFS

[FJ1701]

Yes from a closer inspection, it seems it's just the weak lighting at both ends which are too dim compared to the centre coaches. Many thanks

 

Rory

[David USA]

I wished I had found this article earlier and then I would have know there was nothing to fix! I bought one of the Bachmann CEPs a few months ago and also noticed the lights seemed much dimmer in the 2 end carriages so decided to take a look. Somehow along the way though I have damaged something and now the interior lights do not come on when I press F1. I reverted to the dummy DCC chip and they also did not work. However I also tried 2 other DCC Chips and still they did not work. F0 works fine for the head light. I reversed the middle 2 coaches and sure enough the interior lights on those 2 carriages worked when I turn on the Head light with FO.......so at least I know the lights physically are ok (in at least those 2 coaches) and the connection between those coaches is fine, as the rear light also came off and on with F0 still. There seems very little else that I could have damaged so perhaps I have created a short somewhere. My question though is what voltage outputs (AC or DC) should I see on the 2 connections between the carriages and what should my reference be (eg GND on the DCC chip or VCC). When I went between LED -/+ and Gnd I saw voltage changes on both F0 and F1. One option I think I have is to short across LED +/- so that F0 switches both the Head Light and the interior lights at the same time.....not ideal but I like both sets of lights on anyway. This seemed to work although not sure if that would do damage long term. 

 

Any ideas folks?

 

Thanks

[RFS]

There are two things you need to look at. Firstly, the conductive coupling between the coaches can often be unreliable. It's easy to get the contact to flex out of true and you end up with no connection. Secondly, power to the lighting strip is via two upright copper contacts. If either of these has somehow got bent down then they won't make contact. Do the interior lights in the powered motor coach come on? If they don't it's likely this is the problem. But you do need to look closely as in broad daylight it's often difficult to tell!

 

If you assemble the unit with either of the centre coaches the wrong way round, then all that should happen is that their interior lights work off F0 instead of F1. 

 

Personally I now run my 4-CEPs with the interior lights off. They're not normally on during the daylight anyway, and their variable brightness just doesn't look right.