The Suburban B Set Coaches?

[MarkAustin]

Pardon my dragging up an old thread, but I'm a little short of info regarding use of these B sets. It's been mentioned that they were operated in more urbanised areas as fixed rakes of 4 coaches, what would the formation comprise though - two B sets, or a B set coupled at the outer ends and different coaches in the middle of the rake? And would these additional coaches be BCKs typically or something else like a pair of all 3rd coaches? What was used before 1938 Collett corridor stock was introduced?

 

Oh, and one last question - Karhedron mentioned that some areas favoured auto trains, what's the composition of the rake here, I'm guessing it was headed by an autocoach normally seen on its own with a tank engine, but what other 3 coaches were usually employed in those rakes?

 

Lots of questions, I can only apologise - I don't have nearly as much information available on GWR practices up here as some of you seem to have to hand!

You might occasionaly see two B-sets coupled together (generally as a response to a sudden extra load, e.g. Market Day or a fair), but normally a 4-coach set would be: Van Third, Composite, Composite, Van Third, with the van ends pointing out. Sometimes, a Third would be substituted for one of the Composites. The only real way of telling is from the Local Working programmes, but they're as rare as hens teeth, although there's a nearly complete set from the Bristol Division at the National Archives---up to 1928 in the Bristol Diary (RAIL 253) and 1930 on under its own reference (can't remember/find this one. Will look it up tonight.

 

Mark

Edited January 7, 2014 by MarkAustin

[rovex]

Thanks, that's great information. I'm a little hobbled working in N and preferably mid-30s, restricts RTR choice somewhat - so if I want to run a B set rake of 4 I'm looking for a pair of non gangwayed full 3rd coaches in addition to a B set.

 

The autotrailer option sounds interesting as a less modelled train. So that's 4x autocoaches required, I presume that's because they already had all the necessary push-pull operating linkages installed rather than retrofitting standard coaches to use on the inner ends nearest the engine? And is that with brake ends together for each 'set' of autocoaches either side of the engine?

 

Thanks again!

 

Sorry for the delay in responding - you can make an approximate model of non-corridor stock all third using the passenger ends of two bset coaches. I did such a thing in OO using the Airfix coaches. I think the photos are on the old rmweb if you're interested. Should be possible to do the same in N, as the Dapol b set coaches are the same as the old airfix/Hornby ones.

 

Dean

 

This is the link to the topic on old RMWeb - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=49301

Edited January 7, 2014 by rovex

[Nick Gough]

The only real way of telling is from the Local Working programmes, but they're as rare as hens teeth, although there's a nearly complete set from the Bristol Division at the National Archives---up to 1928 in the Bristol Diary (RAIL 253) and 1930 on under its own reference (can't remember/find this one. Will look it up tonight.

 

Mark

I have some of the London Division books if anyone is interested?

[KeithMacdonald]

Is this a picture of a Suburban B Set?

 

http://highworthhistoricalsociety.org.uk/galleries/nggallery/photograph-galleries/railway-photographs/page/3#gallery/48772dccbe5d1937fdf2f09c10cc1c61/1049

 

It might be one of the last Swindon Workers's trains on the Highworth Branch.

[Miss Prism]

26 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

Is this a picture of a Suburban B Set?

 

Not really. It's just a 3-coach branch set of 4-wheelers (two Brake 3rds and a compo, so it has or once had B-set 'ingredients' - the 1st class compartments in the compo have probably been downrated by the time of the picture).

 

Edited May 25, 2021 by Miss Prism

[bécasse]

The link doesn't go directly to the correct photographs but when one finds them they don't depict a B-set but a pair of non-corridor carriages (a BT/BS and a T/S) which were specially modified (by having their ventilators located further from the roof centre-line than normal) for use on the Highworth branch which had a restricted (height) loading gauge. B-sets weren't permitted on the Highworth branch for that reason.

[KeithMacdonald]

6 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

 

Not really. It's just a 3-coach branch set of 4-wheelers (two Brake 3rds and a compo, so it has or once had B-set 'ingredients' - the 1st class compartments in the compo have probably been downrated by the time of the picture).

 

 

Doh! Apologies to @Miss Prism  - wrong link.

 

How about this?

 

http://highworthhistoricalsociety.org.uk/galleries/nggallery/photograph-galleries/railway-photographs/page/1#gallery/48772dccbe5d1937fdf2f09c10cc1c61/641

 

 

[Miss Prism]

4 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

Doh! Apologies to @Miss Prism  - wrong link.

How about this?

 

Looks like a brake 3rd and an all-3rd. It's lacking 1st class, hence does not have all the ingredients of a pukka 'B-set'.

 

[KeithMacdonald]

How good a model is the Hornby BR Suburban B Coach?

R4293A (W6534W)

R4293B (W6535W)

or..

Are there better ones?

[MPR]

45 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

How good a model is the Hornby BR Suburban B Coach?

R4293A (W6534W)

R4293B (W6535W)

or..

Are there better ones?

It’s very good by 1980s standards…

main issues are:

bogies are very basic

underframe detailing is poor and incomplete, suspicious solebar

buffers are wrong at both ends

buffer beams are curved, not straight

extra window on one side

door handles wrong pattern.

 

But, almost all of the above is fairly easily fixable with a bit of patience, a sharp scalpel and some bags of bits from Comet / MJT.

The more recent non-corridor GW coaches from Hornby are in another league entirely (and nicely discounted at a certain Cornish model shop right now)

 

 

[KeithMacdonald]

2 hours ago, MPR said:

The more recent non-corridor GW coaches from Hornby are in another league entirely (and nicely discounted at a certain Cornish model shop right now)

 

Do you mean this one? if so, thanks.

https://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/58775/R4520B-Hornby-51ft-Gresley-Non-Vestibuled-Suburban-Third-Coach

[MPR]

4 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

 

Do you mean this one? if so, thanks.

https://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/58775/R4520B-Hornby-51ft-Gresley-Non-Vestibuled-Suburban-Third-Coach

I was thinking of https://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/61987/R4881A-Hornby-GWR-Collett-57ft-Bow-Ended-D98-Six-Cmpt-Brake-RH and https://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/61983/R4879A-Hornby-GWR-Collett-57ft-Bow-Ended-E131-9-Cmpt-Compo-RH

These aren’t exactly B set coaches (by which I mean they don’t represent a pair of identical non-corridor brake composites) but they are close as far as your passengers are concerned! Hornby introduced LH and RH versions, so a complete set would be four coaches. (There’s some explanation of how these coaches were formed in rakes, plus where and why they were used,, further back in this thread)

[The Johnster]

Comet do kits for 2 types of B set coaches, the bow ended E140 as modelled by Airfix and later Hornby, and the flat ended E147 with 9' bogies.  They also do kits for the 'South Wales' 5-coach 57' suburban bowended stock on 7' bogies, which were similar in style to the Hornby 57' suburban Collets in style but consisted of a BT/T/C/T/BT formation.  The brake 3rds were different to the Hornby type, with more compartments and a smaller brake compartment, the thirds were 9 compartment, and the composites were laid out differentlly with 3 first class compartments centrally rather than 4 at the end.  I believe some of these 5 coach sets were used in the Bristol Division.

 

They refllected a different, lower, level of first class provision that matched the traffic requirements in South Wales.  I have some of the Hornby coaches on my South Wales layout, for which of course they are not strictly correct but look the part; I have a long term intention of rebuilding them with Comet sides when I finally acquire my long awaited Round Tuit.

 

I have a Comet E147 B set, which is correct for my Tondu area layout.

[PatB]

On 26/05/2021 at 04:46, KeithMacdonald said:

 

Doh! Apologies to @Miss Prism  - wrong link.

 

How about this?

 

http://highworthhistoricalsociety.org.uk/galleries/nggallery/photograph-galleries/railway-photographs/page/1#gallery/48772dccbe5d1937fdf2f09c10cc1c61/641

 

 

Shouldn't that be in the "Prototype for Everything" thread?

[KeithMacdonald]

On 05/04/2013 at 00:51, george stein said:

and, writing with some annoyance from the USA, just received the re-leased Hornby set from Hattons.  Alas, the bogies are incorrect - totally!  How Hornby hopes to compete with Bachmann and the energetic Dapol is a great mystery if they can't get the right wheels/bogies on a well-known coach!!

 

Did they ever fix that?

[BWsTrains]

On 04/04/2013 at 01:21, chrisf said:

 

Much as I hate to take issue with my old friend Mark, this statement needs to be qualified. The expression "B set" is used to refer to pairs of non-corridor brake composites in the Bristol CWP for winter 1951-52 and the Plymouth CWP for winter 1956-57. The Birmingham Division described this formation as D sets - the term "B set" referrred to four-coach sets there. Other CWPs do not use the term at all.

 

It should also be remembered that the stereotypical pair of non-corridor brake composites originates from the 1920s - the E140 as modelled by Airfix and successors dates from 1929. Before that, were trains of elderly four-wheelers called B sets?

 

Oh, and not all B sets were close-coupled. Some of the more recent brake composites had proper buffers at each end and could be run singly. This came in handy on the Kingsbridge branch where one coach appears to have been quite sufficient from the mid-50s.

 

I endorse what Karhedron says about the BRCS Yahoo group - a most useful resource!

 

Chris

 

Hi Chris,

 

This above was your reply to the comment  "I'd just remind people that a B-set in the meaning of two close coupled Van Composites is only a B-set in the Exeter Division."

 

Assuming the original correspondent was accurate regarding close-coupled coaches of some sort in "Exeter Division", were these sets identified as such with a reference Division name and number as can be seen on the newer Hornby release Collett Bow-ended non-Corridor Brake Thirds?

 

 

I've a pair of these currently sporting "CHESTER DIVISION" which need correcting for use on my hypothetical setting in East Devon. I believe both "B-Sets" and Collett Bow-ended non-corridor Brake Thirds pairings were used in similar situations.

 

Were these paired sets identified as such in Exeter Division, and Taunton which are possible bases for my set? Any info re locations and naming will be appreciated.

 

Colin

 

PS I later found the GWR.org reference on the various B-Set locations and numbering which helps.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 7, 2022 by BWsTrains

[Hal Nail]

On 07/04/2022 at 05:59, BWsTrains said:

Were these paired sets identified as such in Exeter Division

The 2 coach brake composite sets allocated to branches in the west country often had the branch name on the outer end in GWR days. Sometimes the name was suffixed with with a number, if there was more than one pair allocated. Lionheart stock photo as an example.

 

I'm not sure if the window end brake 3rd types from 4 coach sets ever ran in pairs though. Once those surburban sets got broken up the odd single coach made it into branch trains when extra capacity warranted it - there was a brake 3rd used as a strengthener on the Looe line for example.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 10, 2022 by Hal Nail

[chrisf]

25 minutes ago, Hal Nail said:

 

I'm not sure if the window end brake 3rd types from 4 coach sets ever ran in pairs though.

 

Neither am I. 

 

Chris 

[BWsTrains]

14 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

I'm not sure if the window end brake 3rd types from 4 coach sets ever ran in pairs though.

 

14 hours ago, chrisf said:

Neither am I. 

 

Thanks for the feedback. Some useful info re branding on Branch Lines which is helpful.

 

The Collett Brake thirds make a very fine Pair, near enough (for me) to certain designs of B-Set in many regards. Hence, I'm happy to operate them with application of Rule No 1 on my hypothetical Branch service. Only the knowledgeable might question the accuracy, something equally applicable in a different regard were I to deploy very ancient / dated /clunky RTR models of a B-Set in their place with all their deficiencies drawing the wrong sort of attention to them.

 

I appreciate your inputs.

Edited April 11, 2022 by BWsTrains

[Hal Nail]

1 hour ago, BWsTrains said:

 

 

Thanks for the feedback. Some useful info re branding on Branch Lines which is helpful.

 

The Collett Brake thirds make a very fine Pair, near enough (for me) to certain designs of B-Set in many regards. Hence, I'm happy to operate them with application of Rule No 1 on my hypothetical Branch service. Only the knowledgeable might question the accuracy, something equally applicable in a different regard were I to deploy very ancient / dated /clunky RTR models of a B-Set in their place with all their deficiencies drawing the wrong sort of attention to them.

 

I appreciate your inputs.

Sorry! Wasn't questioning your choice - just thought I'd mention it to clarify.

 

The GWR did actually build two pairs of E135 brake composites for branch use which were closer to the Hornby brake 3rds than the Airfix E140, with recessed glazing, curly grab rails, a flush guards door and I think 57' (although I don't have my books handy the check the length). The main differences between these and the Hornby's were no end windows and the spacing for the 1st class compartment (which is barely noticeable).

 

These ran on the Looe branch and I seem to recall one was possibly at Kingsbridge for a time as well, so something pretty close to the Hornby brakes were in use as a pair in the Exeter area.

Edited April 11, 2022 by Hal Nail

[melmerby]

E135 were 57' BE and were numbered 6640/1/2/3

Built 1929, lasted until 1960/1

[BWsTrains]

11 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

Sorry!  Wasn't questioning your choice - just thought I'd mention it to clarify.

 

The GWR did actually build two pairs of E135 brake composites for branch use which were closer to the Hornby brake 3rds than the Airfix E140, with recessed glazing, curly grab rails, a flush guards door and I think 57' (although I don't have my books handy the check the length). The main differences between these and the Hornby's were no end windows and the spacing for the 1st class compartment (which is barely noticeable).

 

These ran on the Looe branch and I seem to recall one was possibly at Kingsbridge for a time as well, so something pretty close to the Hornby brakes were in use as a pair in the Exeter area.

 

No problem at all, I greatly appreciate yours and others' guidance since I know relatively little about the topic.

I've only just discovered the info on GWR.org about the great diversity of B-Set type coaches produced over a 30+ year period. A fascinating little corner of GWR history.

 

It seems odd to me that such a common pairing found on modellers layouts is so poorly represented by RTR releases. I'd also not appreciated the difference between them and the 4 car suburban sets. From the GWR source I see the E135 sets mentioned by Keith are included there.

 

From what's been said about the E135 sets, my own pairing will make a passable proxy in my setting so thanks to everyone for your guidance.

 

Colin

[melmerby]

The main visible difference in appearance of the various Bow end B set Brake compos is the arrangement of 1st/3rd compartments and guards compartment and hence window spacing and also number of windows in the guards compartment.

 

Such as these:

The E129 (for Bristol Division) is a 57' arranged 3rd-3rd-3rd-3rd-1st-3rd-3rd-Guard, giving it 8 first class seats & 60 third class seats.

The E135 is 57' arranged 3rd-3rd-3rd-1st-3rd-3rd-Guard, totalling 8 first class seats and 50 third class seats (one less 3rd class compartment - the extra space being added to the guards compartment)

The E140 is 60' arranged 3rd-3rd-3rd-3rd-1st-3rd-Guard, again 8 first & 50 3rd class.

 

The E145 are similar to E140 but not identical

 

N.B. the sizes are often quoted over bow end so a 57' underframe is 58' 2", a 60' underframe is 61' 2"

 

 

[Hal Nail]

8 hours ago, melmerby said:

The E135 is 57' arranged 3rd-3rd-3rd-1st-3rd-3rd-Guard, totalling 8 first class seats and 50 third class seats (one less 3rd class compartment - the extra space being added to the guards compartment)

 

The E145 are similar to E140 but not identical

The Hornby brake 3rd is 6 compartment so the difference to the E135 is in the spacing either side of the 1st class (and a fraction less luggage). Noticeable - but in context, the nearest compromise I figured.

 

Switching tack, I know the E145 had 9' plate bogies rather than 7' and perhaps, therefore, different truss rods (?) but were the bodies the same as the E140? This is a conversion I have toyed with in 7mm just for variety, since I already have spare bogies.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Hal Nail

[BWsTrains]

On 26/05/2021 at 06:15, KeithMacdonald said:

Is this a picture of a Suburban B Set?

 

http://highworthhistoricalsociety.org.uk/galleries/nggallery/photograph-galleries/railway-photographs/page/3#gallery/48772dccbe5d1937fdf2f09c10cc1c61/1049

 

It might be one of the last Swindon Workers's trains on the Highworth Branch.

 

Photo 1049 referred to shows some non- bogie 4 or 6 wheel Coaches in the branch siding at Swindon so may be an incorrect reference.

 

However another photo from the same resource shows a three coach set at the Highworth terminus, the one nearest the loco bearing "Highworth" branding on its end so is presumably part of a B-Set:

 

Link: Passenger 3 coach Set at Highworth

 

Any ideas on the identity of three coaches shown?

Another photo in the set shows two of the three in use; the Passenger Brake and an 8 compartment (all Third?) but no 2nd Brake Coach. Looks like these were not always used in one triple.

 

http://highworthhistoricalsociety.org.uk/galleries/nggallery/photograph-galleries/railway-photographs/page/3#gallery/950cf0934d0853e36fda06297c49f09b/1053

 

BTW nice shots of a single catch point on the entrance to the loop and another between the Cattle Dock and the end of the platform on the running line.

 

There are a large number of fine GWR historical photos of the branchline spanning many years in this resource so well worth browsing through on a rainy day.

 

Colin

 

 

 

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by BWsTrains