robmcg Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 ... I want Hornby to succeed as I believe the hobby without Hornby would be poorer for it but I cannot afford to be charitable and accept any spec at any price for any model. I wonder in what other hobby would we see this strange illogical defence of the indefensible, and also equally the unbridled and sometimes unkind commentary on a major manufacturers woes? One day maybe we will have a simple, constructive debate on the merits and pitfalls of a Hornby model, as modellers without one side of the debate choosing to castigate the other for being more discerning. I didn't mean to castigate anyone, as was explained by others. I now have two RR Duke models which have run excellently at all speeds straight from the box on DC , one also on DCC. They are smooth and fine on type 2 and three curves including curved set-track points. I have ordered a main-range R3191 version for weathering. I would be curious to know what proportion of Duke of Gloucester models are being returned for refunds or repair, given a 2 out of 2 success rate in my purchases so far, or 3 if you include the version reviewed in the link a couple of messages back. I am not doubting the possible limitations of the DoG in long-term wear, although I must say I think the Mazak used in many recent models may become an issue just as easily as any other aspect, like the bearings and rods, my point being that we just do not yet know how the DoG mechanism will stand up to heavy long term use, nor what the cost of a replacement chassis might be in a few years.. Thus my contribution to a reasoned, simple and constructive debate is that these models cost less than Britannias, run adequately well, and look good, and are fun to detail or modify to BR condition. Hornby's pricing of its upcoming BR version might encourage a bit of the latter. I write this because I want to counter the impression given by the last few pages of this thread is that the DoG is in fact a 'dog'.. How many contributors to this thread have bought one which was unfit for purpose? Or a retailer could not replace? A few? Many? Far from a scientific judgement on quality, the two I've owned/seen are fine, as are the two Stars I bought, and a 72XX and 42XX, albeit there are elements in design and construction which are questionable, e.g. some handrails, smokebox details, chassis-construction, and other 'economies'. (and I won't try to analyse the position Hornby is in, in simply getting models of any type built) Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Thus my contribution to a reasoned, simple and constructive debate is that these models cost less than Britannias, run adequately well, and look good, and are fun to detail or modify to BR condition. Hornby's pricing of its upcoming BR version might encourage a bit of the latter. I write this because I want to counter the impression given by the last few pages of this thread is that the DoG is in fact a 'dog'.. Rob They might well be cheaper and might be fun to modify but as I said long ago do not represent value for money to the modeller who is used to the offerings from Hornby in recent years. Unless you put a very low value on your time that is. Around £40 for bits and six hours work does seem like a good option to me. But then it could be just me, being brought up on the notion that the leading company in any field has to follow a policy of improve or go under. Hornby might well not go under but with offerings such as this they will certainly loose their title of No1 supplier of good quality model trains. Sad as again, as I said long ago, people are ultra critical of Hornby as deep down we love 'em to bits. Looking at the prices for the J15 and the K1 by the end of the year we could be seeing Hornby back on track and supplying quality models and the DoG being a regarded as a one off experiment. I just hope so. Bernard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted February 27, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 27, 2014 Rob....post 608...statistically,you have no chance whatever of establishing the numbers of returns Simply put,there IS a known problem,as I know from my own experience. Without prompting,Hattons immediately identified it as a pick up failure...which it turned out to be.....in other words,there had been other returns. Some purchasers will never remove them from the box.Some will be content to tolerate poor,hesitant running. Hornby? It is well documented here that they are as inscrutable as the Chinese and remain as in denial as the early "flat earth" fraternity.Fortress Margate will not be assailed,I'm afraid. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgmichel Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 In my view, it is irrelevant how many returns there are; What do we care? All we want is our problem fixed, quickly, efficiently, at no cost to us, and without questions that might imply it is the customer's fault. Hornby's customer service is pretty good, but it may not be perfect. Certainly, it is not the customer's prerogative to determine whether or not there is a quality control problem; that is up to Hornby. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted February 27, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 27, 2014 In my view, it is irrelevant how many returns there are; What do we care? All we want is our problem fixed, quickly, efficiently, at no cost to us, and without questions that might imply it is the customer's fault. Hornby's customer service is pretty good, but it may not be perfect. Certainly, it is not the customer's prerogative to determine whether or not there is a quality control problem; that is up to Hornby.Why do you seem to argue that the client group ( us ) cannot influence quality control ? That line gives Hornby a blank cheque to heap any old rubbish onto the market....as many might argue they already do.It also invalidates the constructive influence of this forum. Additionally,many members anecdotally will tell you that management simply refuse to acknowledge that there are problems.The problems with R3191 pickups were sorted thanks to two members of THIS forum,not Hornby. Contrast this with the problems Bachmann are sorting head on and upfront with their re-tooled Class 40. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Sidelines Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 In due course I will summarise where I am at with my upgraded DoG. However I feel that Hornby have a very lot to answer. There are inaccuracies with the model, there is faulty design, and then there is poor quality control. On top of all that there is in my opinion dishonesty. I am at the stage of fitting detail and the picture below shows the 'etched nameplates' that some of us paid extra to obtain with the Special Edition. To my way of thinking they look very plastic and printed and not even cut properly to shape. It is also interesting to read the instructions provided with the model which talk about the 5-pole motor (that we perhaps should also have been given). Does it remind anyone of British Leyland - we loved the brand, we bought the cars, but really they had lost the plot. Regards Ray Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted February 27, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 27, 2014 Thank you for that,Ray. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold toboldlygo Posted February 27, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 27, 2014 Does it remind anyone of British Leyland - we loved the brand, we bought the cars, but really they had lost the plot. Regards Ray Yes it does sadly remind me of BL and their distinct lack of QC and testing, used to be up to the owners. The spirit of Red Robbo lives on in a Chinese Factory!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Cram Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 If the model is faulty, return it and get a replacement/refund. Don't whinge about poor quality and then keep it. All that does is prove to Hornby QC doesn't matter as they are not getting hit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgmichel Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Does it remind anyone of British Leyland - we loved the brand, we bought the cars, but really they had lost the plot. Why did we buy the cars? Clearly bad vehicles, everyone knew it. I remember my Marina Coupe with some chagrin. Same with Hornby. It is only Hornby can fix the quality control issues. Unfortunately, It was difficult to return our cars, but locos are different. Just send the loco back. If Hornby finds them all back on their doorstep, then they lose money. If everyone keeps their loco, and just complains on here - then no returns no problem because Hornby sold their product, kept the money and customers were satisfied on their books. The usefulness of this forum is not that it influences Hornby, but that we all know we have a problem and we must send the locos back because it is not just an individual problem with our own loco. BTW: The nameplates look "unetched", I agree. Send it back. Its not as described. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted February 27, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 27, 2014 If the model is faulty, return it and get a replacement/refund. Don't whinge about poor quality and then keep it. All that does is prove to Hornby QC doesn't matter as they are not getting hit.Excuse me....Please do not use that term.There are more polite ways of expressing your feelings that.Civility costs nothing. If you have followed this thread,you may be aware of the skilful and strenuous efforts that have been made to rectify the problems detailed at some length above. Returning the model to the retailer would not have produced a replacement,as none are currently available.In any case,it would certainly not guarantee that the identical problem would not recur in a similar sample. Ray opted to modify his and Alex ( Lochnagar ) sorted mine. Their knowledge and skills are available for you to view on this topic thread,should you so wish.You might then gain some insight into the matter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgmichel Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Excuse me....Please do not use that term.There are more polite ways of expressing your feelings that.Civility costs nothing. Returning the model to the retailer would not have produced a replacement,as none are currently available.In any case,it would certainly not guarantee that the identical problem would not recur in a similar sample. What term is it that offends. "winge"? If so I am not sensitive to it. Seems like a find word to me. Returning a model can produce a few outcomes. No money, money, satisfactory replacement, unsatisfactory replacement, satisfactory repair, or unsatisfactory repair. The safest option depends on the reputation of the company. With some great companies, I would have a satisfactory replacement most of the time, and a satisfactory repair the rest of the time. You seldom will have your money back. Right now, as far as I can tell, Hornby will not tell you to send your product back if you complain about it, and they will claim that they have no returns. This contradictory approach is nothing but poor customer service. If you contact Hornby, you need a response that is proactive and meaningful. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted February 27, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 27, 2014 What term is it that offends. "winge"? If so I am not sensitive to it. Seems like a find word to me. Returning a model can produce a few outcomes. No money, money, satisfactory replacement, unsatisfactory replacement, satisfactory repair, or unsatisfactory repair. The safest option depends on the reputation of the company. With some great companies, I would have a satisfactory replacement most of the time, and a satisfactory repair the rest of the time. You seldom will have your money back. Right now, as far as I can tell, Hornby will not tell you to send your product back if you complain about it, and they will claim that they have no returns. This contradictory approach is nothing but poor customer service. If you contact Hornby, you need a response that is proactive and meaningful. My posting was not directed to you,rgmichel,so no response was necessary...but yes,his response was inappropriate.In a perfect world,we know what to do with unsatisfactory products.I opted for an alternative.It is called " making the best of a bad job".Right now,no one seems to know when,or if ,promised products will arrive,or what condition they will be in when they eventually do. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgmichel Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 My posting was not directed to you,rgmichel,so no response was necessary...but yes,his response was inappropriate. In a perfect world,we know what to do with unsatisfactory products.I opted for an alternative.It is called " making the best of a bad job".Right now,no one seems to know when,or if ,promised products will arrive,or what condition they will be in when they eventually do. I am not comfortable with these types of criticisms of someone's words. My response was necessary because I disagree with the criticism. I think I will back out of this discussion, as it has lost its dispassionate tenor. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Why did we buy the cars? Clearly bad vehicles, everyone knew it. I remember my Marina Coupe with some chagrin. Same with Hornby. It is only Hornby can fix the quality control issues. Unfortunately, It was difficult to return our cars, but locos are different. Just send the loco back. If Hornby finds them all back on their doorstep, then they lose money. If everyone keeps their loco, and just complains on here - then no returns no problem because Hornby sold their product, kept the money and customers were satisfied on their books. The usefulness of this forum is not that it influences Hornby, but that we all know we have a problem and we must send the locos back because it is not just an individual problem with our own loco. BTW: The nameplates look "unetched", I agree. Send it back. Its not as described. I disagree re Leyland cars. They where not the best, but did what they were meant to do, and cheaply. I had a 73 Marina (bought in 74), no major problems, and traded it for a brand new 1800HL Princess, which I had for 7 years and 80 odd thousand miles. Yes, I had a few problems, (again nothing major) but so did my mates with Fords, Vauxhalls and Hillmans etc. (And don't forget you could fix most things yourself on most makes of car quickly and cheaply back then). Later I had a 86 Montego for 3 years, and the only problem with that was a new thermostat for a couple of quid. I currently have a 73 Rover P5B in my garage, passed its MOT last year, no advisories. As to Hornby models, well, it's the price that is the downer for me. The Railroad Black 5 / Patriot / 9F all bought in the last year for under £60 are very good value for money. A Duke with a lesser tech spec for £20 or so more is borderline value, a Railroad Crosti for over £110 is, for me, a "no-go". Incidentally, I have never had a Hornby product with quality control issues, maybe I'm lucky with cars and trains !!!!!!!!!! Brit15 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmcg Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Quite clearly experiences with the DoG are variable, from excellent to bad, the latter requiring replacement or repair. I also have had a large number of British cars from a 1935 Morris 8 to early 50s Hillmans and Humbers, Austins, Morrises Fords and eventually a number of 1950s Jaguars, so I am no stranger to cars which require a bit of maintenance or even full rebuilds, and I am sad that several contributors here have received faulty Duke of Gloucester models, with the option of delayed replacement or repair... Thankyou all who have identified some of the design shortcomings, I wonder if Hornby will take note and do a better job of pickup design/assembly? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted February 27, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 27, 2014 Ah,but Rob,did you ever have the experience of a Hillman Imp ? Makes the DoG problems pale into insignificance.....almost. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Sidelines Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Ah Ian That explains all Ah,but Rob,did you ever have the experience of a Hillman Imp ? Makes the DoG problems pale into insignificance.....almost. We had three Hillman Imps, probably on account of an excellent dealer in Brighouse! Regards Ray Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmcg Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Yes a brother had a 1964 Mk1 Hillman Imp around 1969, swing-arm axles and all. I used to wonder about the worried frown he wore. Still, every journey was a adventure. I thought it was quite neat and peppy little car. Looking back, the advertisements showing mum dad and two kids were slightly optimistic... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmcg Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 I do believe the typical modern 2014 era American family of four would be somewhat non-plussed at the prospect of using a 1964 Hillman Imp as an everyday car. ... but why? 75mph on the freeway... 45mpg... thread drift, I know, I know... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Hillman Imp my first ever car lasted one year -one shunt- three or four head gaskets- driveshaft donuts x2 - battery later er it went . I then bought for a Ford Cortina Mk1 GT which lasted 8 years bit like current Hornby 1 year if ur very lucky against current Bachmann a few years perhaps time will tell. Nothing is perfect but dont be held to ransom by Hornby if its TAT send it back or nothing will ever change. In fact it will get worse Hornby have no incentive to up their game if they still sell out. Hopefully Bachmann etc dont change or we will all be building kits . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
railroadbill Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Rob, at the risk of this turning into a what was the worst car ever thread, my best mate when we were still teenagers had a Hillman Imp, no, it was a Singer Chamois, and your posting of the Imp advert just fills me with feelings of sheer terror... Fortunately, he soon saw the error of his ways and bought a Triumph Herald like myself and out other friends who had the same type of car..er, did you say "swing axle suspension"?? Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmcg Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 my memories of the Imp owned by my brother are a bit vague but I recall a lot of positive camber on the front wheels not sure what the exact design was (I was about 18yrs old) There were some racing versions which gave Cooper S cars a fright... At least wheel camber is not so far a we know a problem for those who are repairing DoGs... it may be for authentic running disasters for certain Bulleids c1953 though... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
railroadbill Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 I had a Morris Marina for 11 years no, really, but it just kept going (after all sorts of troubles in the first year) and was very easy to maintain. So perhaps Hornby DoGs will keep going... (oh, that's DoG and not DOG, isn't it). Actually, this thread has made me put getting a DoG onto the back burner although I really like the prototype having had a couple of good preserved steam railtours behind it and therefore it's been on my "have a model of that one day" list. On the other hand, I've just got to get a Bachmann class 40 although as a young rail fan I didn't like the long pongs at all. Probably because they were displacing all those lovely steam engines begining with "A". Weird how age mellows you. But Hillman Imp ...arrgh! Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
railroadbill Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 my memories of the Imp owned by my brother are a bit vague but I recall a lot of positive camber on the front wheels not sure what the exact design was (I was about 18yrs old) There were some racing versions which gave Cooper S cars a fright... At least wheel camber is not so far a we know a problem for those who are repairing DoGs... it may be for authentic running disasters for certain Bulleids c1953 though... The all alloy engine was developed from a Coventry Climax engine also used in small racing cars (but can't remember what type). The engine was also used to drive portable water pumps for fire service use, being a light piece of kit. There was a twin carb version in some Imp variants (and I think a bigger bore version that was about 1 litre capacity). Remember the coupe version with even less room in the back (Sunbeam Stiletto) and the Husky estate where you put your luggage over the engine cover? Had no chance against the innovative mini, with superb handling and the reliable A series engine (the x04 of the car world). This does relate to model railways because I've got a model Imp and a mini on the layout. But then they're parked up and don't have to go anywhere.. Bill edited to include the words "Sunbeam Stiletto" - how could they have come up with that one, eh? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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