Colour of numbers on loco bufferbeams

[Miss Prism]

Does Great Western Way edition 2 say these are gold, yellow, or pale yellow? (With shaded black.)

[buffalo]

It says:

"They were painted in gold also shaded vermillion and black and were six inches high, applied by transfer between the coupling hook and the right hand buffer shank viewed from the track." (GWW P46)

 

Nick

[gwrrob]

Here's the sheet available from Fox transfers for them

 

http://www.fox-transfers.co.uk/image_display.cgi?image=11O8yw.UWS0Kk.jpg

[Miss Prism]

Do you find the "gold" and the "shaded vermilion" credible?

[buffalo]

Do you find the "gold" and the "shaded vermilion" credible?

As is often the case, when you look more closely at what is written in GWW, the picture becomes less certain. On p35, in what is meant to be a general introduction to the period 1906-1947, a paragraph beginning "Figures (transfers):"  says "...yellow with black shading...". However, I think this should be treated with care as the previous paragraph "Lettering (transfers):" only describes the post WW2 styles, so the same may apply here. This would not be the only part of this chapter where the author(s) have drifted away from their current topic.

 

In the more detailed sections that follow, there is mention of the GREAT WESTERN lettering on tank and tender sides "...in yellow shaded black and vermillion..." in 1921 and "In 1923...the lettering was in gold..." The later shirtbutton was also a gold transfer. What I haven't yet found is any clear description of the shading for pre WW1 lettering.

 

In the absence of other details, I'm inclined to think that the transfers for buffer beam numbers may have used the same colours as the side lettering, so may have varied through time.

 

Nick

[JohnBS]

Miss Prism,

The best source for GWR livery issues in my opinion is Ian Rathbone's site - much more detailed and much more authoritative than Great Western Way ed 2. See link:

http://www.ianrathbonemodelpainting.co.uk/gwr-locomotive-liveries-1923-39.php

He describes buffer beam numbers as in yellow, shaded. My hunch is that he is right - never seen any indication that the numbers were in gold.

John

[buffalo]

The best source for GWR livery issues in my opinion is Ian Rathbone's site - much more detailed and much more authoritative than Great Western Way ed 2...

Ian Rathbone's site is indeed a delight to browse through. He is one of that very small number of highly talented folk who can manage to make orange lines look as though they are only an eighth of an inch wide on a small scale model. His coverage of lining details on that page is superb and is the only one that I'm aware of that actually goes beyond the information contained the 1954 Swindon drawing No 97520^A as reproduced in Russell and used extensively to inform the GWW coverage.

 

It is, however, much less detailed in most other respects and I would not call it authoritative. Indeed, he pitches it as a model painting guide rather than as a definitive description of prototype practice. His prototype photos appear to be mostly preserved examples and his sole quoted source is Bob Meanley, CME at Tyseley Works. No doubt these are high quality sources, but I would expect something much more grounded in the contemporary sources before using a term like authoritative. GWW on the other hand provides extensive references to its sources, including many contemporary memos and other documents.

...He describes buffer beam numbers as in yellow, shaded. My hunch is that he is right - never seen any indication that the numbers were in gold.

Yes, but he says nothing about the colour of the shading. Equally, he says nothing about the colouring of the lettering on tanks and tenders, but it is quite clear from his gallery photos that he uses the same gold, black and vermillion lettering as the rest of us. That he doesn't mention something is hardly evidence of its non-existence!

 

Nick

[Miss Prism]

John, yes, I am acquainted with Ian Rathbone's excellent site, and it was his use of "pale yellow" that partly prompted my OP. I suppose, in colour terms, there isn't much of a difference between 'pale yellow' and 'gold', and I've noticed in a description of loco liveries in The Locomotive an author is somewhat loose with his colour descriptions, confusing orange for yellow, so I'm not sure whether we should put too much store on what are often dilettante descriptions. Having said that, it is possible that the pre-WWI application was different, and I guess we'll never really know. It really doesn't help that GWW is inconsistent.

 

Here's Nunney's pale yellow and Lode Star's deeper yellow.

[Miss Prism]

On reflection, I think the use of the term 'gold' was probably an attempt to describe a dull yellow colour rather than a metallic gilt, and it's interesting the term continued in GWR coach lining practice until BR days. Here's a version of it from Pete Speller, one of Didcot's coach-painting gurus: