Norm81 Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 As the period I'm aiming to cover is roughly 1980-1993 there's scope for me to include some DMU replacement services. I know in the late 80's failures were frequent including the transmission issues with the 142's etc. I've found the following eight pictures on flickr but unfortunately I can't ID the coaches, due to lack of knowledge and obscure views, so was wondering if anyone could help? http://www.flickr.com/photos/deltic_baggie/6076587405/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/66289212@N07/7761924208/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/66289212@N07/7973247496/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/34906043@N07/7113698675/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/43564631@N08/4326595195/ I'm particularly interested in these three as they're in my area: 31320 Newcastle C 2B21 270888 by dlc456, on Flickr 31252 Carlisle 22/07/1989 by Paul-Green, on Flickr 31252 Carlisle 22/07/1989 by Paul-Green, on Flickr Also interested in any pictures or information anyone might have, thanks in advance... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenser Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 (edited) First photo - 31320 , Mk1 TSO? SK? , Mk2 of some description , probably TSO vac brake Mk2?? Second photo: first coach Mk2 , not a brake , not sure if an all first or a TSO, though I think it has a yellow cantrail stripe (=all first) Third photo: 31 252 , Transpennine livery Mk1 - , looks like a brake First link : 31 320 Mk1 - all second (TSO or SK), Mk2 TSO , Mk2 Brake (probably BSO) Since first photo and first link show the same loco on the same day, the set is presumably the same.... Second link: Mk2 first - we can't see if its a BFK , or FK or FO as only the first half is visible Third link - 47 461 + 3 x Mk1 . Brake leading (BSK? BSO? - not a BCK though), followed by all second (SK? TSO?) Fourth Link - 47 in sector plus 2 x Mk1 BSK (or BSO?) at Barnstaple. Weird ! [edit - 2 x BSK] Fifth link - 47 373 + 3 x Mk1 . Formed TSO or SK, BSK or BSO, TSO or SK . (Notice a 3 coaches have solebars - Mk2s don't , no coach has a yellow stripe at cantrail, so no first class accomodation) Edited April 23, 2013 by Ravenser 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastwestdivide Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 BSK? BSO? - Mk1 BSKs had 4 compartments (4 big windows), while BSOs had 5 seating bays (5 big windows) 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kintbury jon Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 My thought would be that the second and third photo are of the same train. I'd like to suggest (looking at how far the BG is from the buffer stops) that it is a three coach formation of Transpennine stock, Mk 1 BG, ????, Mk 2FK (as in the second photo). I am going to guess that the middle vehicle would have been a mark 2 TSO. Though looking again, perhaps it was just two coaches?! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kintbury jon Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 The Middlesbrough - Carlisle service with the blue 31 (2nd link) would have had a Transpennine Mk 2 FK based on the fact that it was 1989 and Regional Railways livery had not yet been introduced. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm81 Posted April 23, 2013 Author Share Posted April 23, 2013 (edited) Many thanks for the quick and comprehensive responses! For the mk2 coaches, I am assuming they are either mk2a, b, or c, as mk2d windows are more mk3 style. I currently have 3x Bachmann blue/grey mk1, 2 SO's and one BSK, 3x airfix/Dapol blue/grey mk2d, 2 TSO's and one brake, 1x lima blue/grey mk1 full brake. Stupid questions - is there any external difference between an SO and a TSO? I have found this topic on the subject http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/58420-mk1-so-vs-tso/ so i guess i might get away with my bachy SO's rather than getting TSO's? Also I assume the mk2d's I have really aren't suitable as everything I've found so far is mk1-2c? Edited April 23, 2013 by sprinters1981 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kintbury jon Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 SO's had 2+1 seating and TSO's had 2+2 seating though from the outside they are visually the same. I reckon your SO's are in fact TSO's. Agreed that the 2d stock is probably not much use (though I bet a few photos will disprove this!) but the three Bachmann mark 1's sound like a good mini rake. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm81 Posted April 23, 2013 Author Share Posted April 23, 2013 Thanks again, I'd just found the answer and edited my previous post at the same time you posted but have been wrestling with the iPad keyboard! Will move on the 2d's as no doubt photos will exist but they'll be a rarer sight and get some mk2a-c's. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butler Henderson Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 Sprinter substitutions were also pretty common ignoring the 155 problems. There was a Sunday 1806 (IIRC) Nottingham - Sheffield which whilst shown in the timetables as being a Sprinter was, for a period at least, a 47 on a 4 coach rake and which usually tore the timetable apart requiring lengthy waits en route and a early arrival at Sheffield. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenser Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 Many thanks for the quick and comprehensive responses! For the mk2 coaches, I am assuming they are either mk2a, b, or c, as mk2d windows are more mk3 style. I currently have 3x Bachmann blue/grey mk1, 2 SO's and one BSK, 3x airfix/Dapol blue/grey mk2d, 2 TSO's and one brake, 1x lima blue/grey mk1 full brake. Stupid questions - is there any external difference between an SO and a TSO? I have found this topic on the subject http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/58420-mk1-so-vs-tso/ so i guess i might get away with my bachy SO's rather than getting TSO's? Also I assume the mk2d's I have really aren't suitable as everything I've found so far is mk1-2c? Mk2D - Mk2F are aircon coaches and have very different window shapes. All the Mk2s in the photos are non-aircon - I'd be extremely surprised to see aircon stock in DMU substitute sets. More critically here Mk1s were built with vacuum brakes , though some were later fitted with airbrakes. Early Mk2s were vac braked , though by Mk2b they were definitely airbraked (not sure about Mk1a). Therefore the chances are that mixtures of Mk1s and Mk2s must be early built Mk2s with vac brakes - what Bachmann call Mk2Z. Not a guarantee - air braked Mk2s could work with Mk1s converted to airbrakes. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenser Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 My thought would be that the second and third photo are of the same train. I'd like to suggest (looking at how far the BG is from the buffer stops) that it is a three coach formation of Transpennine stock, Mk 1 BG, ????, Mk 2FK (as in the second photo). I am going to guess that the middle vehicle would have been a mark 2 TSO. Though looking again, perhaps it was just two coaches?! Mk1 BG or Mk1 BSK? I'm not sure its a full brake, even though Transpennine had the only BGs in any version of Regional Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
graeme9022 Posted April 24, 2013 Share Posted April 24, 2013 Hello, a couple of the links from flickr are mine... I have a list of Heaton (and CL) LHCS rakes used in the north-east in 1989, and can supply on request. Although I haven't got record of the coaches in the rake behind the Class 31 - I was probably too busy doing that photo on the day - but I have lists of rakes observed covering that period. As one or two others have said, the 1989 rakes included formations of 2 x Mk2 FK + Mk1 BG... I say included, as this is how the services started from the Spring, but TP-liveried TSOs started to appear over the months... [http://www.flickr.com/photos/66289212@N07/7896081854/] Later on in 1989, the north-east services were using Carlisle (CL) based blue+grey Mk2s (the use of TP coaches stopped). 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm81 Posted April 24, 2013 Author Share Posted April 24, 2013 Mk1 BG or Mk1 BSK? I'm not sure its a full brake, even though Transpennine had the only BGs in any version of Regional I've decided it was a BG as that was all I could find on eBay, along with either an FK or SO/TSO (lima, £20 posted for the pair). Hello, a couple of the links from flickr are mine... I have a list of Heaton (and CL) LHCS rakes used in the north-east in 1989, and can supply on request. Although I haven't got record of the coaches in the rake behind the Class 31 - I was probably too busy doing that photo on the day - but I have lists of rakes observed covering that period. As one or two others have said, the 1989 rakes included formations of 2 x Mk2 FK + Mk1 BG... I say included, as this is how the services started from the Spring, but TP-liveried TSOs started to appear over the months... [http://www.flickr.com/photos/66289212@N07/7896081854/] Later on in 1989, the north-east services were using Carlisle (CL) based blue+grey Mk2s (the use of TP coaches stopped). Hello, I think I've got a lot of your photostream bookmarked for future ref, lots of good local pictures on there. If the list of Heaton LHCS rakes is easily sent and not going to be too much trouble I would certainly appreciate a copy. 2 x first class plus 1 x BG sounds an odd rake to me, no std class? Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
graeme9022 Posted April 24, 2013 Share Posted April 24, 2013 (edited) I've decided it was a BG as that was all I could find on eBay, along with either an FK or SO/TSO (lima, £20 posted for the pair). Hello, I think I've got a lot of your photostream bookmarked for future ref, lots of good local pictures on there. If the list of Heaton LHCS rakes is easily sent and not going to be too much trouble I would certainly appreciate a copy. 2 x first class plus 1 x BG sounds an odd rake to me, no std class? Thanks. Yes, the 2 x FK+1 BG was certainly an odd rake, with only 84 seats (probably insufficient at times), which were obviously charged as second class. Below are the rakes I observed... the rake numbers given below are my purely arbitrary numbers as I wrote them up at the time, though the letters are obviously the depot I believe they were from, whilst the consecutive numbers represent the order in which they appeared (in some cases, I have stated the date I saw them). Suggest you check a 1989 spotters' book to confirm coach types and liveries... most HT rakes are TP livery (though I think some of the BGs were blue+grey at times), all CL rakes were blue+grey. HT1 13527 13463 92204 (17/04/1989) HT2 13527 13532 84010 (29/04/1989) HT3 5160 5283 5387 5311 92117 (06/05/1989) HT4 5387 5311 92117 (15/05/1989) HT5 13463 5160 92250 (08/06/1989) HT6 13527 13519 92089 HT7 5463 13532 80805 CL8 9462 5413 5288 (07/08/1989) HT9 5323 13445 92338 HT10 13519 13445 92338 HT11 4366 4785 84210 Mk1 blue+grey rake HT12 5347 5379 92089 HT13 13527 13445 92089 HT14 13445 13527 92248 (26/08/1989) HT15 13445 13527 80805 (31/08/1989) HT16 13445 13527 92351 (02/09/1989) HT17 4366 4785 84388 (06/09/1989) Mk1 blue+grey rake HT18 5379 13519 92351 (06/10/1989) HT19 5343 13519 92351 (09/10/1989) CL21 5288 5413 9462 (07/11/1989). Also, on 25/11/1989 worked 0630 Newcastle-Seaham and 0726 Seaham-Newcastle behind 31434 CL22 5363 5383 92115 (08/11/1989) CL23 5363 5144 92115 (11/11/1989) CL24 5182 5483 92369 (18/11/1989) CL25 5288 5144 92142 (05/12/1989) CL26 5288 5144 92369 (28/12/1989) CL27 5144 5383 92246 (30/12/1989) CL28 5182 5483 92317 (03/02/1990) CL29 5282 5383 84388 (10/02/1990) CL30 5189 5352 5374 92221 (14/07/1990 - 31217 hauling 1500 Middlesbrough-Newcastle, the last loco-hauled I ever saw). Edited April 24, 2013 by graeme9022 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdaveadams1 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Thanks for that list Graeme, absolutely superb! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium CloggyDog Posted February 10, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 10, 2014 I recall a glorious fortnight in Aug 1989 when poor Sprinter availability resulted in the Crewe - Derby services being almost entirely worked by pairs of Class 20s on load 3 (mix of Mk1 (including at least 1 BG) and early Mk2s, One particular day saw 6 pairs of 20s working! And similarly, the Derby - Buxton trains were also in the hands of Class 20s (this time, top & tail) on load 3 rakes, including some NSE-livered stock. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vince minto Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 hi a few photos of the 13-15 newcastle- middlesbro,which then worked the middlesbro-carlisle,and then the 18-55 carlisle newcastle used to travel on this a far bit 31256 newcastle 16-7-84 31320 newcastle 8-6-84 37136 newcastle 29-6-84 37253 newcastle 22-8-84 83 to 86 was always a scratch set of mk1's.anything could turn up from full first class to a couple of coaches thats not counting the various type two's dragging units around it helped that my local was at the end of the platform at blaydon 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrails Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 I'm interested too! On the Western, the Pacer Gearbox crisis led to many 2,3,4 coach often with Premier 50 traction, here is a Tinsley 47 https://www.flickr.com/photos/34906043@N07/7113698675/ Then, a similar crisis afflicted the North East and is quite well documented above. Newcastle-Carlisle, To Sunderland coast to Middlesborough and the Berwick stoppeds turned up all sorts, including many 47, 31, 37, and rarely 25044, 25/3, 26 dragging a dead DMU, 45s Sheffield to Leeds, Barnsley and Penistone services, had dead DMU drag 1987-8 31s,37,45,47, and earlier on one occassion a failure by a 20 to Penistone, and the legendary push up the hill by a 76(allegedly)! For one day only it was trialled the Whitvy, 31282 and 31285 running into trouble with no room to run round at Battersby, it didnt continue! However, it is the York connections of DMU replacers in 1984 would like to know about. Am sure saw many 31/1s and 31/4s at York. Certainly have 31101 and 31102 as being on these, but nobody to pictures of 31s at this time! When the Class 123/124s were withdrawn in May 1984 4 York coaches and a 31/4 did the Manc Picadilly- Sheffield. https://www.flickr.com/photos/72123072@N04/8217872516/ Did they also run a service to York? Here we have one Manc to York via Rotherham https://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/4603494370/ The others I recall were old, short sets to Scunthorpe or Cleethorpes or Lincoln. Does anyone have any info? Here is a Sheffield to Scarboro from the same new timetable. https://www.flickr.com/photos/sydpix/5287662360/in/photolist-94fDNq-2iNFyG7-7MBk6D-26N3SsG-9rV48c-2jbZPvH-HcXpkk-SUjsvP-2isV4Ma-7BJgZN-2irC6Zr-21GRcHm-xB4udU-2hHhQXX-mv1QGa-PGLLGo-22MkVf8-2hsp8Pk-Qq8tAT-rfUZdf-NJhavq-NUGqBm-22MkWmg-PVDJtV-VWPJKS-2hsvdGp-22Ry7up-dNntVP-KYNQwE-ob32b7-YuKFKF-PGLLfG-sz7m3S-81N7uA-21JgT8k-RGiaAG-NUGqpY-cv6P71-2iw5Ny4-e9yKvC-PrMLVW-X1pw2o-26N3SeW-qX6wTt-VZyBnB-q6HAoP-NGetwH-2hszsUd-97Jbad-2hswL6A Be interested on more info... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrails Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 Here is the Battersby disaster! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrails Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 A Lincoln-Derby-Matlock unti in 1990 was replaced by a pair of 20s, here running arounf a larger, 5 coach set 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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