Which class 43s had guards' compartments?

[sub39h]

Hi guys,

 

I am trying to acquire a Hornby I/C Swallow HST pack which I want renaming and renumbering to ECML numbers. I note that in the Swallow pack one of the cars has a window for a guards' compartment and one doesn't. I just wanted to make sure that I picked suitable running numbers for the power cars. One will be renumbered 43051 "Duke and Duchess of York" and from photos it seems as though this one had the extra window. I wanted the other numbered 43072 and make a Master Cutler set but again info online reveals that 43072 should have a window too. 

 

The link http://www.therailwaycentre.com/Pages%20Loco/Recognition%20loco/Illus_43A%20HST.html indicates that cars after 43152 were no longer built with guards' windows. I wanted to confirm that it is indeed correct that all running numbers greater than 43152 did not have guards' windows. I am aware of (and have participated in) another thread which gives details of all the ECML HST running numbers so I just need to know whether the above info is correct.

 

Many thanks 

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Yes, 43002 - 43152 (plus the prototypes 43000/1) originally had the additional side windows (and a rear window on the end of the vehicle), whilst 43153 - 43198 lacked these.

 

Later refurbishment of HST power cars has seen earlier members that had the windows, have these side/rear windows removed.

Edited April 28, 2013 by Western Sunset

[sub39h]

Perfect. Thank you.

 

When you say later refurbishments, I take it you mean after privatisation when fleets were life-extended? So they all were in original form in I/C Swallow livery?

Edited April 28, 2013 by sub39h

[Peter Kazmierczak]

I've got some pictures of the Master Cutler in I/C Swallow livery somewhere. I'll try to dig them out.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Both 43051 and 43072 retained the side guard's compartment windows in I/C Swallow livery.

[sub39h]

So some power cars lost them when they were painted in I/C Swallow? Those pictures would be very helpful, thanks. I only have a couple of photos led by 43072 and with 43051 trailing. The impression I got from the description of the photos (taken by a railway worker in Sheffield) was that it was always these cars that pulled the Master Cutler? But this seems unlikely as BR had already made the decision that it was unfeasible to permanently couple two power cars permanently? 

[Peter Kazmierczak]

I know the intention was to try to keep the same set together - the MC was formed slightly differently from the rest of the MML sets with more 1st class accommodation.

These two power cars certainly worked the train in its first days (possibly weeks?) of service. Obviously with maintenance, the power cars and trailers would soon be split from each other.

 

Just looking at some of my notes from the period, the power cars and trailers were repainted in I/C Swallow during April 1987. The Press Run for the Master Cutler was on Wed 6th May 1987 with the train formed (from south to north):

 

43051,41097,41098,41117,40619*,42191,42192,42193,44061,43072

 

The * indicates the kitchen end of the vehicle.

Edited April 28, 2013 by Western Sunset

[sub39h]

so it was running with a TRSB rather than a TRFB? I wasn't aware that any of those were in Swallow livery 

 

Edit: it seems I can't read properly. Never mind! 

Edited April 28, 2013 by sub39h

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Think it was a TRFM - certainly had 2+1 1st class seating.

[sub39h]

i don't really fully understand the differences between the Mk3 Kitchen/Buffet cars. here is a prime example - what is the difference between a TRFB and a TRFM then? and what are TRUKs? Did TRSBs exist after the Swallow livery was introduced? 

[Flood]

As first built in 1976 HST sets had one TRSB and TRUK. Both these coaches have four passenger windows on each side.

Within a couple of years it was realised that two catering cars were no longer needed and in order to serve both "at seat" breakfasts and dinners plus have buffet facilities a new design of coach was introduced from 1978, this was the TRUB. The TRUB only had three passenger windows each side.

The Western Region sets were reorganised as either TRSB or TRUB with all the TRUKs going to the Eastern and Scottish Region. From about 1983/4 enough TRUB had been built to withdraw all but three TRUK, one for the Tees - Tyne Pullman, one for the Yorkshire Pullman and one spare. One TRUK was converted to an executive lounge (40513), four others went to Royal Train vehicles and ten others remaining of the twenty built (except 40519 and 40520) were converted into loco hauled RFM stock to replace Mk1 buffets.

From 1985 the TRUB stock was made first class and reclassifed TRFB and in 1987 40619 was reclassified from a TRFB to a TRFM for the Master Cutler. I don't know of any external changes so it basically still looked the same as the others.

The TRSB stock continued to be used on the Western Region and NE/SW services but from about 1985 some of the Western Region TRSBs were given first class seats and, in the Platform 5 books, classified as TRB.

From 1987 up to privatisation in 1996 there were therefore still TRFB, TRFM, TRSB (certainly on NE/SW, possibly some on the Western) and TRB stock in use. The last TRUK stock was only used as spares once the Mk4 sets had been delivered. As Swallow livery was introduced from mid 1987 then the vast majority of the stock (if not all) would have had this livery though some may have still been in the original executive livery.

After 1996 I'm not up to speed at all!

 

 

Edit to confirm some original points plus the following:

By 1992 all the Western Region TRSB stock had become TRB but TRSB stock was still used on NE/SW services.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Flood

[Glorious NSE]

So some power cars lost them when they were painted in I/C Swallow?

 

**Mostly** it was a post-privatisation change - Western Region allocated ones lost theirs earlier as the 'van' space was used for ATP gear - that happenned circa 1990 according to here: http://www.traintesting.com/GWML%20ATP.htm - note the shot of the installation inside the van including the blocked window.

 

They were painted in Swallow, but the change wouldn't have neccesarily happenned at the same time as the repaint into Swallow if that makes sense?

 

(IE - Some may have been in Swallow first, then lost their guards windows later - the driving force for losing the window was the ATP fitment and not the repaint...)

 

Presumably the ones on other regions losing them post-privatisation is due to other gear being added as well...?

[sub39h]

thank you both for that very helpful information. 

 

My intended layout is going to feature a fictional North London terminus that serves both the ECML and Midland Main Line (so basically a "King's Cross-St Pancras. station) based around the early 90s. I am going to have a couple of loco-hauled Mk3 services for variety but this is going to be a quirk of "my" railway and I won't otherwise feature any WCML services so I should be ok with my windowed power cars. 

 

are there any 00 models of the TRSB and TRUK out there? because I have Lima restaurant cars in Exec and Swallow but both of them have 3 windows. 

Edited April 29, 2013 by sub39h

[Flood]

re there any 00 models of the TRSB and TRUK out there? because I have Lima restaurant cars in Exec and Swallow but both of them have 3 windows. 

Nope sorry. Hornby and Lima have only ever made a TRUB/TRFB and the Jouef model was a Mk3a RUB (also 3 passenger windows) but with incorrect roof vents.

 

The Mk3 style buffet in the Hornby Wrexham & Shropshire sets has four passenger windows but is a loco hauled RFM. I don't know how accurate it is as I have never seen one in the flesh to be able to compare it to an arrangement drawing.

 

Seeing as you will be modelling St. Pancras/Kings Cross in the early 1990s all the sets would have been Eastern Region based so as long as you don't want a Pullman set they were all Power Car, TF, TF, TRFB, TS, TS, TS, TS, TGS, Power Car anyway.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Flood

[sub39h]

it's more the need for an RFM for one of my loco hauled services. i have one of these :http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Lima-OO-BR-Mk3-Buffet-Coach-Intercity-Livery-/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/3V4AAMXQ6BRRZBr~/$T2eC16dHJF8E9nnC8HWWBRZBr-yRZw~~60_35.JPG

 

but it looks like that's a HST car because it only has 3 windows

[Flood]

it's more the need for an RFM for one of my loco hauled services. i have one of these :http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Lima-OO-BR-Mk3-Buffet-Coach-Intercity-Livery-/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/3V4AAMXQ6BRRZBr~/$T2eC16dHJF8E9nnC8HWWBRZBr-yRZw~~60_35.JPG

 

but it looks like that's a HST car because it only has 3 windows

Quite correct. The only option apart from converting left is the Wrexham & Shropshire one which is not only rare but also in blue and grey. Very few options at all.

[sub39h]

seems odd to me that Hornby would have specially moulded an RFM just for W&S livery? maybe we'll see a Chiltern Mainline one in the future and i'll just have to repaint that

 

or I suppose I could go for Hurst models kit, but as with everything else on their website it's not in stock. do they even trade anymore? of the half a dozen things I need seriously nothing is in stock. 

Edited April 29, 2013 by sub39h

[giz]

The Hornby RFM has been available in W&S blue/grey and Virgin Pretendolino liveries (http://www.railexpress.co.uk/news/rfm-joins-Hornby-range-but-lima-origins-are-obvious).

I've a feeling that they also announced it in W&S silver but it never appeared. The W&S ones were extensively modified by that time anyway.

It was also due out in de-branded Virgin livery but has been delayed. http://www.ehattons.com/51166/Hornby_R4545_Mk3_Ex_Virgin_Buffet_Weathered_Withdrawn_from_2012_range/StockDetail.aspx

Edited April 30, 2013 by giz

[sub39h]

aha, that Virgin one would be perfect for a respray, and saves me faffing about with Hurst parts. plus from the photos it looks like it is based on the Lima mould so would be ideal to match all my current Mk3s which are Lima

 

thanks very much for the link

Edited April 29, 2013 by sub39h

[Removed a/c]

They couldn't even get the dining car for the Royal train right !! 

[deltic79]

In their 2012 range they listed a 4 windowed blue/grey Mk.3 buffet, numbered as a TRSB. But this was postponed and now cancelled.

 

Whether their retooled Lima Mk.3 RFM would have been correct for a TRSB I'm not sure. It might have been similar I guess.

[Removed a/c]

So is this incorrect then?

 

http://www.newrailwaymodellers.co.uk/images/Hornby-2012/coaches/mk3_br_buffet_western_region.jpg

[phil-b259]

So is this incorrect then?

 

http://www.newrailwaymodellers.co.uk/images/Hornby-2012/coaches/mk3_br_buffet_western_region.jpg

 

Given the image shows the coach fitted with the orange central door locking lights, the description (a BR Mk3 Western region buffet) doesn't sound right

[Coach bogie]

Yes, 43002 - 43152 (plus the prototypes 43000/1) originally had the additional side windows (and a rear window on the end of the vehicle), whilst 43153 - 43198 lacked these.

 

Later refurbishment of HST power cars has seen earlier members that had the windows, have these side/rear windows removed.

Rear window on the prototypes, complete with wiper blade, was for the driving position as they were fitted with auxiliary driving controls at the corridor end

 

http://www.traintesting.com/images/power_car_drg.jpg

 

Mike Wiltshire

[ess1uk]

interesting stuff.

growing up in Kettering i saw the Master Cutler set most days, very smart it looked in the then new IC livery.