Compatibility of system expansions.

[7013]

I was wondering about the various expansions available for systems, in particular Loco net and Express net. Is there any compatibility between the two? For instance assuming one could plug a Digitrax hand held into a Lenz command station would it work?

[Dagworth]

Loconet and XpressNet are mutually exclusive and neither's handsets will work on the other's system. There are a few devices that can translate the information on one system to make it readable by the other.

 

Andi

[GoingUnderground]

ESU are bringing out a converter called the L.Net to allow the connection of Loconet throttles to the ECoS. I gather it is in Beta test, but no date has been announced for it going on sale.

 

Uhlenbrock have a device that allows you to connect the Roco LokMaus to their Loconet bus. I don't know if this just works with the LokMaus or with other XpressNet devices.

 

I may be wrong, but I believe you can, in theory connect X-Bus and Xpress Net devices together as one is a development of the other, but I wouldn;t like to try it out myself. 

 

There is no certainty that devices from one manufacturer will work with devices made by another manufacturer even if they use the same data transfer protocol unless the manufacturers concerned say that they have tested the interoperability of the devices and they do work together.

 

You should never experiment with interconnection, even if the devices use the same types of connectors - the connectors may look the same, but the wires will probably be used for different purposes and you risk destroying both devices.

[Dagworth]

I may be wrong, but I believe you can, in theory connect X-Bus and Xpress Net devices together as one is a development of the other, but I wouldn;t like to try it out myself.

Different system architecture, quite well explained here http://www.trainbuddy.com/Reference/compareDCC.htm

One is a central intelligence and dumb slaves (XpressNet), the other is distributed intelligence.

 

Andi

[Nigelcliffe]

Also, don't assume that Uhlenbrock Loconet kit will talk to Digitrax. Some works fine, other items don't work outside an Uhlenbrock command station.

[GoingUnderground]

Different system architecture, quite well explained here http://www.trainbuddy.com/Reference/compareDCC.htm

One is a central intelligence and dumb slaves (XpressNet), the other is distributed intelligence.

 

Andi

 

Andi,

 

Many thanks for correcting my error.

[Phil S]

To clarify a possible confusion in an earlier reply: X-bus and Xpressnet are 2 generations of  protocol from Lenz, which are used by many others - They should NOT be confused with LocoNet.   As the link correctly described, Xpressnet is RS485 based, as was the older, slower, X-bus.   Loco-Net is an Ethernet-type bus

 

You may or may not find that X-bus controllers operating on 18V - probably making use of the same power rail used to drive the track output (a logical choice) ... however Expressnet devices changed to being 12V: ZTC-users who had their units upgraded will be aware of this change in Voltage on their mini-din connections with V4 software).

LENZ have published connection diagrams, and sell adapters for their differing connection types: 5-PIN DIN, 6-pin RG plugs.  Bachman EZ controller used 8-pin RG plugs, and ZTC chose to use 6-pin Mini-Din.

 

For compatibility, several manufacturers have produced adapters ONE WAY from X-bus devices to continue in use on Expressnet systems: LGB and Massoth (LGB's electronics manufacturer), for example: The adapter translates the old X-bus data, and retransmits it at the higher data rate on the new Expressnet bus.  This can only work one way - no reverse communication is possible, as the old protocol does not support as many commands as the Expressnet version.

 

With architectures like the Roco Amplifier, whatever Controller is plugged into the MASTER socket provides the intelligence and protocol used: If a Multimaus2, then it is Expressnet, and 4-digit addressing etc etc,but if a Rocomaus2 is plugged in AS MASTER, then only 2-digit addressing will  be supported:  of course, it can be plugged in as a Slave, and used for 2-digit addressing, when a Multimaus is plugged in as Master. A Rocomaus (X-bus) would need to be plugged via the protocol adapter (as a slave)!

 

With the newer MultiCentrale Pro (which came out with wireless connections built in, for the blue handsets), the 'Master' was built-in to the box, in the same way as Lenz have been doing with Central Units.... other  handsets are then just slaves.  There is now, aparently, a version without the wireless support.

 

Roco have now introduced the Z21 and z21 - the z21 is a cutdown version supplied in Starter Sets - and these both support, via a HUB, connection to Networked handsets (such as Android devices).  The FULL Z21 version ALSO INCLUDES backward compatibility by including Expressnet sockets for Multimaus (Red=wired) handests.

Z21 but not z21: LocoNet, CAN-Bus, the X-Bus port, the Sniffer-Bus, the programming end level and the programmable track port as well as the track current regulator.

[Which CAN bus protocol WILL be supported is to be advised later]

 

 

After Roco's parent company took over Fleischmann, who used Loconet, there was a need to support customers with both protocols! (see full Z21 info)

Simialrly, 'independant' manufacturers have included multi-protocols ... as have several mainstream european control centres by offering dcc simultaneously with other track protocols (NOT Zero-1 !, and the ZTC511 was only switchable between formats)

 

ESU was one of the first to offer the 'sniffer' method of 'upgrading': by monitoring the TRACK DCC output of ANY sysytem, and recoding into THEIR output -thus providing one-way compatibility from any existing system, allowing its handsets to continue to be used ... BUT AT THE LOSS of any feedback info eg point position.

[GoingUnderground]

I wonder how many people realise that the Z21 unit is not the same as the z21 unit? I didn't even know there was a z21 unit.

 

Can you upgrade a z21 to be a Z21?

 

As CAN Bus has been mentioned, the ECoSLink protocol is a CAN bus protocol, and used by the ESU ECoS and Maerklin Central Station 1 (CS1), but the only devices that work with it are the following ESU products: ECoSBoost, ECoSDetector, ECosDetector Standard, and, when it is launched the L.Net module. ESU's Navigator can be used as a booster with an ECoS or CS1 if connected via the ECoSLink ports, as can a Bachmann Dynamis ProBox system, but you cannot use the handsets as additional throttles if you are using the base stations as boosters. The Maerklin Mobile Station 60651 and 60652 handsets also use the ECoSLink protocol, but these are no longer available.

 

I believe that MERG CBus is also a CAN bus, but it is not compatible with the ECoSLInk bus, and I don't know if there are any converter/adapter units available.

[Nigelcliffe]

 

As CAN Bus has been mentioned, the ECoSLink protocol is a CAN bus protocol, and used by the ESU ECoS and Maerklin Central Station 1 (CS1), but the only devices that work with it are the following ESU products: .........

 

I believe that MERG CBus is also a CAN bus, but it is not compatible with the ECoSLInk bus, and I don't know if there are any converter/adapter units available.

 

There is also a CAN bus on Zimo command stations, and the OpenLCB proposal (different to MERG's, but also open source).    There has been some discussion on CAN inter-operation, and its not going to be easy.  Commercial makers don't publish their documentation, and the open-source system designers have pointed out that inter-working requires lots of things to standardised.

Last I saw, Roco were asking users which CAN to implement.  The open-source designers I saw commenting on the survey pointed out that two of the proposed CANs were fundamentally incompatible, so it would have to be one or the other.

 

So, I expect CAN to remain as another "stick to your chosen maker" set of problems.

 

- Nigel