Oldest RTR British Outline model to pass muster today...?

[Ruffnut Thorston]

On 26/01/2014 at 18:27, andyman7 said:

Yes, it's wire that goes in the 'smoke pipe' in the earlier Seuthe smoke generators that can burn out or get lost. In the later Synchrosmoke generators it's an element (part no.X549) which although obsolete does turn up on ebay, albeit you will pay round £10 for one nowadays.

 

Seuthe still make smoke generators and I haven't got round to checking whether the necessary part for the older generators can be obtained or adapted from their current range. 

 

The Seuthe type smoke units are a brass "chimney" mounted on the front of the chassis and with a yellow wire from the bottom to the feed wire to the motor. This has an element inside. Inside the element is meant to be the "smoke pipe" which is a lot like a hypodermic needle, hollow and with a slant on the "bottom". The Smoke pipe can fall out if the loco is inverted (turned upside down).

 

The wire can get broken as it is a single core wire. It is difficult to re-attach to the unit.

 

These were used from 1961 until replaced by the Tri-ang Synchro-smoke system in 1964.

 

The SS smoke units consist of a metal box (silver.grey diecast) with a plunger driven from the main gear wheel. The element X.549 looks a lot like a small cartridge fuse. (Yes, available on Ebay...as are the instruction leaflets for the smoke units...) This is inside the box, and sits on some "wadding". The R.59S 3mt has a long lid extension, which clips onto a standard "small" Smoke unit.

 

The elements are a push fit between the back of the box and a contact at the front. The wire (usually red) from this contact can fall off at the solder joint. This goes to the motor feed as well.

 

 

[Il Grifone]

I always thought this feature an expensive waste of time. The smoke effect is at best pathetic and it increased the price of the locomotive by around £1 (or about £20 in today's devalued currency). I can remember being very annoyed at having to pay over £3 for a 3MT tank when I only needed the chassis (To motorise a Kitmaster prairie tank - why I didn't buy the Graham Farish version I don't know. That one was all complete and ready to go and was cheaper too. It would have been successful, whereas mine wasn't - the cylinders kept falling off).

[Nimbus]

I always thought this feature an expensive waste of time. The smoke effect is at best pathetic and it increased the price of the locomotive by around £1 (or about £20 in today's devalued currency). 

 

The price premium for the simple smoke unit was actually 10 bob exactly. The condensing vapour used to form an oily film over the loco body, and unfortunately, istr, stripped black paint off green locos' smokeboxes.

 

The Nim.

[aaron14xx]

The price premium for the simple smoke unit was actually 10 bob exactly. The condensing vapour used to form an oily film over the loco body, and unfortunately, istr, stripped black paint off green locos' smokeboxes.

 

The Nim.

[aaron14xx]

My green 3MT has the synchrosmoke unit fitted. There is an element inside which looks to be in good condition.

 

Plenty if oil, all wiring present, but it just does not want to heat the element.

 

If I place the wires from my controller and touch the metal ends of the element, a short occurs, which means there is electricity.

 

I had it working for snout 5 minutes the day I got it, then it stopped

 

I know that so etching with resistors helps.

 

All help appreciated.

[Jenny Emily]

I'd agree that the Hornby Dublo 8F still certainly holds its own. I also have a Hornby Dublo City of London that I occasionally allow out to be 'played' with, though I do want to ultimately get a new Hornby replacement. Other Hornby Dublo locomotives are a little past their prime, though the class 20 is quite good.

 

As for wagons, I think that the blue-spot fish van was a very good model; continuing in production through Wrenn and Dapol and still holding its own against the new Hornby offering. I also remember the Presflo cement/ICI salt wagons being really good too.

[Ruffnut Thorston]

My green 3MT has the synchrosmoke unit fitted. There is an element inside which looks to be in good condition.

 

Plenty if oil, all wiring present, but it just does not want to heat the element.

 

If I place the wires from my controller and touch the metal ends of the element, a short occurs, which means there is electricity.

 

I had it working for snout 5 minutes the day I got it, then it stopped

 

I know that so etching with resistors helps.

 

All help appreciated.

 

What sort of "oil" are you using?

 

The "proper" smoke oil is not a lubricating oil like 3-in-1...it is a very "light" formulation. Hornby had it as part R.521 I think. Hornby had a new plastic based smoke unit in the1990s that used the same oil.

 

Gaugemaster are Seuthe stockists, for more smoke oil.

 

I got a largish bottle of some American Smoke oil via Ebay.

 

I would take the element out, and clean the ends of the end caps (gently scrape with a sharp knife, or fine sandpaper.

 

Also clean the contact at the front (check the wire is well attached as well) and the casing where the back end of the element fits.

 

If you have a volt meter, you could check that power is reaching the front contact of the unit. It is possible that the connection to the motor feed could come loose.

[aaron14xx]

What sort of "oil" are you using?

 

The "proper" smoke oil is not a lubricating oil like 3-in-1...it is a very "light" formulation. Hornby had it as part R.521 I think. Hornby had a new plastic based smoke unit in the1990s that used the same oil.

 

Gaugemaster are Seuthe stockists, for more smoke oil.

 

I got a largish bottle of some American Smoke oil via Ebay.

 

I would take the element out, and clean the ends of the end caps (gently scrape with a sharp knife, or fine sandpaper.

 

Also clean the contact at the front (check the wire is well attached as well) and the casing where the back end of the element fits.

 

If you have a volt meter, you could check that power is reaching the front contact of the unit. It is possible that the connection to the motor feed could come loose.

[Il Grifone]

The price premium for the simple smoke unit was actually 10 bob exactly. The condensing vapour used to form an oily film over the loco body, and unfortunately, istr, stripped black paint off green locos' smokeboxes.

 

The Nim.

 

I remembered £1 at the time, but I'll check. However,  even 10/- was too much. It  made the 3MT cost as much as the far superior Dublo 4MT.

 

I acquired a Tri-ang Britannia not so long ago, which gave a few desultory puffs, when I tried her, and then gave up. I don't know if the feature still works or has lost the pipe, as I disconnected it immediately. There were signs of internal damage to the body from the heat and oil and yes the oil does take the paint off. She currently decorates a shelf in the living room. Ever so often SWMBO makes remarks along the the line of 'junk' which I fail to understand! ??????

 

EDIT

 

I've found a price of 17/6d for the smoke unit as a spare, but am still looking for the locomotive price.

[Nimbus]

Jenny Emily, on 28 Jan 2014 - 18:16, said:

 

As for wagons, I think that the blue-spot fish van was a very good model; continuing in production through Wrenn and Dapol and still holding its own against the new Hornby offering. I also remember the Presflo cement/ICI salt wagons being really good too.

The Blue Spot van is one of my favourites too, though I suspect it is too wide. Mention should also be made of the Hornby-Dublo SR CCT. I bought mine secondhand in spring 1967 from a lad on the train I took to school. Accustomed to Tri-ang standards, I couldn't stop looking at it, and marvelling at the finesse of the detailing. A plus to my daily commute was a spell waiting in Welwyn Garden City, on the homeward leg, alongside what was then a busy goods yard, where I could compare what I was spending my pocket money on, directly with the real thing.

 

The Nim.

[Il Grifone]

The Blue Spot van is one of my favourites too, though I suspect it is too wide.

 

omis.

 

The Nim.

 

I thought so too, but I think it's only around a millimetre. It's made worse by the strapping being too thick.

[hartleymartin]

We must remember that the older models, particularly in the Tri-ang range were intended primarily as toys rather than finescale models. That said, some were better representations of their prototype than others. I do know that quite often they looked to use existing components, particularly running mechanisms to put models to keep costs down. This is why several models have the same mechanism, although they might be a few scale inches out here and there. It was good in that it gave us new models that were not overly-expensive, but compromises were always going to be made.

 

I think that the Mainline J72 was a pretty darned good model for it's time. I have a later Bachmann example in my collection. The chassis below the footplate is a bit too chunky for the prototype, but I am sure that I can make some improvements to it down the line.

[aaron14xx]

What sort of "oil" are you using?

 

The "proper" smoke oil is not a lubricating oil like 3-in-1...it is a very "light" formulation. Hornby had it as part R.521 I think. Hornby had a new plastic based smoke unit in the1990s that used the same oil.

 

Gaugemaster are Seuthe stockists, for more smoke oil.

 

I got a largish bottle of some American Smoke oil via Ebay.

 

I would take the element out, and clean the ends of the end caps (gently scrape with a sharp knife, or fine sandpaper.

 

Also clean the contact at the front (check the wire is well attached as well) and the casing where the back end of the element fits.

 

If you have a volt meter, you could check that power is reaching the front contact of the unit. It is possible that the connection to the motor feed could come loose.

I've filed the end caps of the element slightly so that bright shiny metal is showing, filed the contact (and fitted new wiring) and I also filed the inside of the unit housing, and the bottom to allow as much current through. 

 

As for the smoke that I'm using, I've recently made up a mix of baby oil and methylated spirits (40% metho 60% baby oil), and it gives of massive amounts of smoke, as proven when I tested it by placing some of the mix on a cotton ball and applying my old soldering iron. A video can be supplied if wanted at all.

 

Currently I've got the loco running in front of me as I type, albeit without a body or valve gear, still no sign of the element heating up though.

 

If you require any photos of the model at all, please don't hesitate to ask, after all, it's either this unit works, or I'm having to pay out $35AUD (being in Australia, of course) for a new unit or repairs.

 

Hope all this information helps you,

 

Regards,

 

Aaron

 

*EDIT* 

 

All info above was added in the edit.

[Ruffnut Thorston]

I remembered £1 at the time, but I'll check. However,  even 10/- was too much. It  made the 3MT cost as much as the far superior Dublo 4MT.

 

I acquired a Tri-ang Britannia not so long ago, which gave a few desultory puffs, when I tried her, and then gave up. I don't know if the feature still works or has lost the pipe, as I disconnected it immediately. There were signs of internal damage to the body from the heat and oil and yes the oil does take the paint off. She currently decorates a shelf in the living room. Ever so often SWMBO makes remarks along the the line of 'junk' which I fail to understand! ??????

 

EDIT

 

I've found a price of 17/6d for the smoke unit as a spare, but am still looking for the locomotive price.

 

Hi.

 

I have had a look at the Loco prices from 1962 (Seuthe Type) and 1965/6 (Synchrosmaoke)

 

I don't have the details to hand...but it is interesting to note that after 1966, Tri-ang Retail Price Lists only list the Smoke Fitted Locos....

 

From memory, I was a bit shocked to find that the "extra" price varied wildly with the "Seuthe" type. (There are a lot of comparisons available in the 1962 Retail price List.)

 

With the SS units, the only comparisons available are the  R.259 Britannia and the R.150 B12 (I think.)

 

In 1965 the R.259 S Britannia cost a couple of pennies short of 20 Shillings (£1) extra.

 

In 1965 the Extra had dropped to around the10 Shillings mark.

 

I'll dig out the notes tomorrow, hopefully!

[Il Grifone]

Hi.

 

I have had a look at the Loco prices from 1962 (Seuthe Type) and 1965/6 (Synchrosmaoke)

 

I don't have the details to hand...but it is interesting to note that after 1966, Tri-ang Retail Price Lists only list the Smoke Fitted Locos....

 

From memory, I was a bit shocked to find that the "extra" price varied wildly with the "Seuthe" type. (There are a lot of comparisons available in the 1962 Retail price List.)

 

With the SS units, the only comparisons available are the  R.259 Britannia and the R.150 B12 (I think.)

 

In 1965 the R.259 S Britannia cost a couple of pennies short of 20 Shillings (£1) extra.

 

In 1965 the Extra had dropped to around the10 Shillings mark.

 

I'll dig out the notes tomorrow, hopefully!

 

It's hard to compare prices as the the smoke unit fitted version was the only one available. Tri-ang's habit of price lists separate from the catalogues doesn't help either. I do remember a general sharp increase in prices following the demise of Meccano Ltd. however.

[Edthefolkie]

Nice to see a picture of the Triang L1 - one of my Christmas presents in 1962 I think. Seeing the photos, and the remarks about smoke units, reminded me of a bad move I once made.

 

50 years ago I was a member of our school's Model Railway Club, and we were asked to put on a display for the school's 450th anniversary open day. We set up part of our 00 end to end layout, which luckily had (I think) Streamline track so we could demonstrate various locos, including my nearly new L1. This went down very well. So well in fact that I got a bit carried away.

 

I thought the smoke from the L1 wasn't impressing the punters enough. How could I get the smoke unit really cooking? I took the body off the L1, removed the positive lead to the X04 motor, replaced the body and filled the smoke unit. I then turned the H & M controller up to "full". Within 10 seconds a very satisfactory cloud of fragrant smoke poured from the L1's chimney. When the smoke oil ran out I refilled the unit and tried again. To my horror the black paint evaporated from the chimney, revealing Triang Brunswick Green. Then the base of the chimney started melting! Never has a controller been turned off so fast.

 

Well, I was only 16. Real excitement like Bob Dylan and coffee bars came later!

[Il Grifone]

Tri-ang models all go like the proverbial s*** house door (without 'Magnadhesion' they won't pull anything*, but that's another argument) so I assume the smoke unit was designed with the thought that it would never be run on full voltage (without oil, my Britannia's was glowing red hot, so was speedily disconnected!). At least spare bodies were available - at around a relatively modest 5/- IIRC. My brother's clockwork diesel shunter was converted to a steam saddle tank this way.

 

*Most will only manage three Dublo coaches on the level. (Tri-ang open axlebox coaches are lighter, though no more free running, so they'll pull more of these). Strangely my B12 is quite happy with five or six - nearly as good as a Dublo loco (I have had ten behind a Duchess though... - the ringfield diesels are almost unstoppable!)

[Nimbus]

Most will only manage three Dublo coaches on the level. (Tri-ang open axlebox coaches are lighter, though no more free running, so they'll pull more of these). Strangely my B12 is quite happy with five or six - nearly as good as a Dublo loco (I have had ten behind a Duchess though... - the ringfield diesels are almost unstoppable!)

 

Meccano did stage a stunt with a couple of Metro-Vicks pulling a trolley-mounted typical 12":1ft schoolboy of the period to make this exact point!

 

The Nim.

[Guest spet0114]

Meccano did stage a stunt with a couple of Metro-Vicks pulling a trolley-mounted typical 12":1ft schoolboy of the period to make this exact point!

 

The Nim.

 

Wasn't it a Deltic?

[Il Grifone]

I'll have to look it up, but I think it was a Deltic pulling the boy and then three pulling an older girl.

 

This was to launch the Deltic (later described as a Class 5 to distinguish from the correctly liveried versions), but could just as well have been the later Co-Bo as they share a mechanism.

 

EDIT

 

Early 1960 the boy weighed 3st. and the girl 8st.

[Guest spet0114]

According to Michael Foster's book (p.61) there were three demonstrations :

 

1 'Co-Co' pulling 2st 7lb + 1/2 st

 

2 'Co-Co's pulling 4.5 st

 

3 'Co-Co's pulling 8 st

 

The article was published in the March 61 issue of MRN, in an article about the 1961 Trade Fair.

 

Cheers
Adrian

[Ruffnut Thorston]

Tri-ang Railways “Normal” and Seuthe Smoke fitted locos 1962 Price List

 

R.59 BR 3mt 2-6-2 Tank Loco   53/3   Smoke 68/5  15/2 Extra

 

R.258 Maroon Princess Royal   54/7   Smoke 70/5   15/10 Extra

R.34 Tender 6/8

 

R.259 Britannia   56/9   Smoke 76/-   19/3 Extra

R.35 Tender 7/7

 

R.350 S.R. L1 4-4-0    42/7   Smoke 60/3   17/8 Extra

R.36 Tender 7/7

 

R.354 Lord of the Isles GWR Single   42/7   Smoke 60/3   17/8 Extra

R.37 Tender 7/7

 

R.356 Battle of Britain   53/3   Smoke 68/5   15/2 Extra

R.38 Tender 7/7

 

R.54 T.C. Pacific   58/3   Smoke 70/5   12/2 Extra

R.32 Tender 7/7

[Ruffnut Thorston]

Tri-ang Hornby Synchrosmoke Locos. Price List 1964.

 

R.150 B12 4-6-0   39/6   Smoke 47/-   10/6 Extra

R.39 Tender 5/6

 

R.259 Britannia   56/-   Smoke 75/-   19/- Extra

R.35 Tender 7/6

 

Price List 1965.

 

R.150 B12 4-6-0   39/6   Smoke 40/6   10/- Extra

R.39 Tender 5/6

 

R.259 Britannia   62/-   Smoke 75/-   13/- Extra

R.35 Tender 7/6

 

Price lists 1966 on only list smoke fitted examples.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

We must remember that the older models, particularly in the Tri-ang range were intended primarily as toys rather than finescale models. That said, some were better representations of their prototype than others...I think that the Mainline J72 was a pretty darned good model for it's time...

What I have in use from circa 1960 RTR are wagons. Already mentioned, the Triang bogie brick wagon body was a true scale model only marred by the heat printing. Suitably worked on and repainted on kit diamond frame bogies it looks well today. Likewise some of the H-D wagons which are useful in offering vehicles otherwise requiring kit building. The H-D grain hoppers though only have until the Bachmann replacements come along, then they can be disposed of. 

 

The Trix pacifics were easily the best for appearance of any of the 50s and 60s era steam loco productions, and we didn't see anything to surpass these until Mainline and Airfix got going. I feel that's a fair assessment by the evidence of what remains in production and is purchased in sufficient quantity to have the manufacturers maintain it in their range. Nothing from Triang or the much vaunted H-D from that period is still offered as premium product, yet the Trix A4 and Mainline J72  body shells are the basis of Bachmann's current models, likewise Hornby have the N2, 61xx and a fair slew of wagon types all originating with Airfix.

 

The next significant step up was the Replica B1, a model which for appearance is still decent; again the body shell now on its third mechanism variant looks to be capable of holding its place in the Bachmann range. Only been exceeded by the introductions of Bachmann and Hornby from 1999 on.