Oldest RTR British Outline model to pass muster today...?

[andyman7]

Browsing the forum I happened on a thread regarding building a 'Princess Coronation' which amongst other things grumbled about the 'new' Hornby Princess tool being 25 years old and of insufficient quality to be worth upgrading.

 

This made me think, because my instinct is that the Hornby one is still a 'new' model, but indeed the basic tools date back 29 years to 1984. At the time it was considered a timely release, as the only previous RTR Princess had been the Triang model made from 1950-1974. Yes, the 'new' model has now been produced for longer than the original Triang one!

 

Anyhow, on a more general level it made me wonder if old tooling per se is a bad thing, and I thought it would be interesting to open up the question to forum members about what you consider to be the oldest RTR tooling that produced a satisfactory model. The kind of thing I'm thinking of is that, for example, the HD Deltic was by any assessment terrible as a scale model, but the English Electric Type 1 (class 20) wasn't at all bad. Of course, in the 50s, 60s and 70s it was very hit and miss, and 'scale' models often bore only a passing resemblance to their subjects (Trix Warship anyone?) but other models looked much more the part (the 1960 Triang Britannia still looks OK to me).

 

Moving on to more modern times, Jim S-W would rather use the 32 year old Hornby 86 bodyshell as a basis for his P4 models as the shape is considered better than that of the Heljan one. Other modellers prefer the basic shape of the 36 year old Hornby 25 to the 13 year old Bachmann one. So, what would you choose?

[Peter Kazmierczak]

The shape and subtle details on the Tri-ang EM2 were very good when it first appeared over 50 years ago now. I think that has stood the test of time well.

Peter

[APOLLO]

My 1960's Hornby Dublo "City of London" (2 Rail) still flies around with 12 on. A bit faded and battered now (as the real ones where towards the end), but still struts her stuff in style. I also have 2 1970.s Wrenn (ex H Dublo) EE Type 1's which look & run superb.

 

Will my new Hornby / Baccy locos last as long, look so good in around 50 years time ?

 

Brit15

[298]

I think the oldest tool still used is for the Triang Cattle Wagon, now part of the Thomas Range. I have a few HO scale Roco tank wagons, produced with a level of detail that has only recently been surpassed by OO manufacturers. I've seen adverts for them in magazines from the late 1960's.

[Ruffnut Thorston]

Yes, the Tri-ang Cattle Wagon was first released C1956, with a cast metal chassis and the old MkIIb "Open Loop" couplings. It was also the S.R. Sheep Wagon!

 

In the scenery side, the Hornby Trackside Accessories Pack has the Lineside Huts, Mileposts, Gradient Posts, and Whistle Boards from the mid to late 1950s, and the Telegrapgh Poes and Loading Gauge from C1962...

 

The EM2 is a good model. made 1960-1972

 

 

The Brush A1A A1A (Class 31) is another good model from 1964. Think "Freightmaster" Train Set.

 

 

(This is the 1972 issue.)

 

 

The Tri-ang B12 is another quite reasonable model from the early 1960s, and was even made in China!

 

 

The Tri-ang DMU was a 1950s model that was also released in the 1970s... (This is a re-painted example...)

 

 

 

Hornby Dublo "Super Detail" wagons, as also made by Wrenn and Dapol....

 

 

 

Hornby Dublo /Wrenn R1 0-6-0...

 

 

 

Hornby Dublo /Wrenn 8f 2-8-0...

 

 

 

Tri-ang 3MT 2-6-2. Think Bachmann...

 

 

 

Tri-ang 3f 0-6-0 Tank "Jinty"..

 

 

Tri-ang 3f 0-6-0 Tender loco..again think Bachmann...

 

 

 

[PhilJ W]

I know its slightly of topic as they are not R-T-R but the Airfix/Dapol rolling stock was introduced in 1959 and most belie their age.

[bennyboy]

The Hornby Dublo 08 shunter was a pretty decent model which doesn't look too bad even today. That's especially true when you consider that it had outside frames, which the Triang-Hornby model didn't have until only a few years ago when they introduced their retooled version.

[Phil Bullock]

The Mainline Warship body from the 70s has to win plaudits. Isnt it essentially the same shell appears on Bachmann Warships still on sale now?

 

Shame the real thing didn't last as long!

 

Phil

[Il Grifone]

I must agree with the above, but probably the oldest decent model is the Dublo A4 from 1938. Ignoring the undersize wheels (which don't show under the 'skirts' anyway) the body shape captured the real thing better than several later attempts.

 

Then there's the Dublo 4MT tank which is quite reasonably to scale (though not over detailed) and the Dublo Castle, which was a standard for 'superdetailing' for many years.

 

Some of the Dublo wagons have not been bettered to this day (with the exception of the 10 ft wheelbase cast underframes, though the later type is not too bad).

 

Then there's the Tri-ang L1 (perhaps not the tender), Lord or the Isles (still available).

 

The Tri-ang LMS cattle wagon is well over length (a pity as it is quite well detailed), but the contemporary GWR horse box was quite good (ignoring the raised plank groves and the underframe). The Trackmaster origin open wagon is also a fair representation of a P.O. mineral wagon. Their SR utility van is another reasonable piece of rolling stock (apart from the planking again) and also still available (Possibly now ex-catalogue?)

 

The Farish Pullmans are also good models (Materials and rolling qualities excepted!)

 

Still earlier (1929 IIRC) (and larger!) Hornby No.2 Specials were probably the first reasonably priced R-T-R to actually look like their prototypes.

 

And from abroad, Rivarossi produced some excellent models (again some are still available - the US range)

[andyman7]

I think there are several classics there. The EM2 has always been a favourite of mine, and the Triang B12 has had an incredibly long and illustrious career. Although a little sparse below the frames, the later China made ones with their full lining look really great (even in fictitious colours such as British Railways express passenger blue).

I'm glad to see the Mainline Warship mentioned - although a comparative youngster at 'only' 33 years old it is indeed the basis of the current Bachmann offering and stands up remarkably well against superdetail stablemates. 

[Dagworth]

The Lima 87 first appeared in 1979 http://www.mremag.com/news/article/Hornby-ex-lima-class-87s/11797 which at 34 years old must make it one of the oldest locomotive toolings in the Hornby stable that is still a current release.

I've heard it expressed that the Tri-Ang English Electric type 3 (Class 37 to us) is a better overall shape than pretty much all its successors - apart from the bogies of course, likewise the Hornby 47 and the Tri-Ang Brush type 2.

 

Andi

[Jack]

The kind of thing I'm thinking of is that, for example, the HD Deltic was by any assessment terrible as a scale model

 

To be fair to Hornby Dublo, they did release the model before BR had finished the first prototype!!  Apparently thats why it was so bad, BR changed part of the external design after Hornby had measured up for the model ...

[Carl. H.]

 

Some of the Dublo wagons have not been bettered to this day (with the exception of the 10 ft wheelbase cast underframes, though the later type is not too bad).

 

 

 

And some these are still available today through Dapol.  When it comes to the Hornby 37 and 47, the proportions of the bodies are the only good thing. The Lima equivalents were much better overall and still look good today considering both are knocking on close to 30 years old. The first lima 37 was released in 1984, the 47 in 1986 - I think. Another good model from the Lima stable was the PAA grainflow wagon; excellent shape and superb detail, that was released in 1983.

 

Carl

[coachmann]

The Hornby Dublo 8F 2-8-0 did it for me. Okay, so it went through a phase of an elephantine Ringfield motor sticking out the back of the cab, but I remember a pal converting an 8F not just to 2-rail but to the hallowed S4 scale. The Dublo 3-rail 'Castle' wasnt bad either. This model benefited from lost-wax slidebars, new boiler fittings, Romford wheels and a full respray and I was involved in quite a few on a commercial basis with Westward Models in the very early 1970s.

[Il Grifone]

IIRC a converted Dublo 8F was used in early Protofour advertising. Really her main fault lies in the overscale rivets.

[coachmann]

I totally agree about the rivets, but one cannot over emphasise the impact this model had on 4mm scale modelling on its introduction. I was around 16 at the time and was making my way from work to Manchester Victoria and stopped by a crowd of people surrounding Bassett Lowkes shop window. Eventually I got close enough to the glass to see what all the fuss was about....The new 8F. It wasnt green or an express locos, it was a common and garden freight locos which, as can be imagined, went down well in LMS territory. At around £4 it was well out of reach of my pocket at that time.

[Il Grifone]

I can remember a similar crowd for the Castle the year before (strangely the rivets are heavy on this one too, but don't seem as obvious - at least to me - perhaps it's the lining?). I settled for the Bo-Bo diesel for Xmas 1958 and had to wait several years for my 8F (half price clearance! )

[andyman7]

The HD 8F manages to look the part, even if it lacks some of the subtlety of later models. I can imagine the impact it would have made in the 1950s. 

Mention of Lima reminds me that of all the manufacturers in the 70s and 80s they had the crispest mouldings - although their Mk1s were somewhat spartan and suffered severely on the glazing front, the door shut lines and hinges were beautifully crisp. 

[hmrspaul]

One of the best wagon models, which I don't think has been mentioned, was the Tri-ang LNER bogie brick.

 

Paul

[Il Grifone]

One of the best wagon models, which I don't think has been mentioned, was the Tri-ang LNER bogie brick.

 

Paul

Indeed an excellent model and new bogies make all the difference - the Tri-ang ones are rather poor. The brick load suffers from raised grooves (not too much of a problem today, as they are hard to find collectables). It's probable that it stopped an upgrade of the Dublo (and Trix) tinplate versions.

[Robert Shrives]

Simples!

Triang TT DMU and class 31, DMU had splitframe chassis on motor bogie. 31 had wire hadrails and nearly flush glazing.  

On my TT display layout I have a modern Hornby green 31 to show changes - and this has a buggered chassis block! So yes these older models certainly outlive the modern one.  

Steam wise the TT steam locos were good and last batches of Castle and Brit had spoked see through drivers which N gauge modellers have just go in UK.

Robert   

[SRman]

I would vote for the Hornby Dublo 8F, although many of the other models mentioned also have merits. I have a soft spot for the Triang B12 (my very first 'big' engine!) and the EM2, which I still have in my display cabinet, although it would run if I put it on the track.

 

The rivets and boiler bands on the 8F do appear rather over-exaggerated and too rounded at the edges but I have seen an 8F body stripped of the thick enamel and the details actually appeared to be very sharply defined and not quite as bad as the painted examples would suggest.

[Joe MCMLXI]

I also vote for the H/D 8F, in fact 1 run three on my layout now, 2 H/D, 1 Wrenn, all have been weathered and renumbered and I quite happily run them with the latest Bachmann Robinson 04 2-8-0 and Hornby Thompson 01 2-8-0's... The older models have great traction as a bonus.

joe

[andyman7]

The HD 8F seems to be the front runner but a fair few Triang items are getting repeat mentions. I'm glad to see the Trix/Liliput E3001 mentioned, a very fine moulding and in 4mm scale too. It's a shame we've never had the chance to see one with a modern RTR finish.

[PatB]

What about the first Airfix r-t-r (31, Mk2 coaches) and Mainline (J72) offerings which came out ~1976?  Memory tells me that they were a significant step forward from what had gone before but I was nine at the time and so may not have had the necessary critical faculties .