Point Control - Hedging Your Bets

[AlanRogers]

I'm looking to add point motors to my small layout, which is currently wired for DCC. I'd ideally like to allow the points to be changed from either the controller or by using simple switches set into the front of the layout, in a more traditional style.

 

Is there a point control system which will allow this?

[richard brown]

which dcc system do you use

 

Richard

[AlanRogers]

I use a Digitrax Zephyr, so LocoNet.

[AndrewC]

Hi Alan, now retyping everything since you just posted your system make. I'd say your best bet and best bang for your buck is with the CML DAC20. It will control 8 points from both the Zephyr + attached throttle, and from push buttons on a panel. I've been using them lately as a substitute for the no longer available Digitrax DS54.

[shibushe]

Alan If your track is already laid, then you have a problem.

Most under board motors will need a hole for the actuator rod to locate in the tie bar.

There are of course top mounted motors available, and need to be diguised if possible.

All these are DCC Motors. Traintronics / Cobalt / Tortoise / ZTC/ 

ZTC are the only ones that I personaly dont like, They need a LARGE rectangular hole under the tie bar.

and have to be mounted on the point first, and the power tags soldered to the point..

But are easy to program in situ. All the rest a 5/8 hole is enough.

Traintronics need programing via the program socket.

Not sure how Cobalt or Tortoise do it.

I have 6 ZTC, & 15 Traintronics. all are controlled from the command station by entering its address

Also with Traintronics its a simple way of wiring in  colour lights which i have done.

Usefull if, as with my layout I can see if the lines clear or not. Saves me getting out of my chair.

I think ZTC are the only ones that need soldering.

[AndrewC]

Addendum:

 

If you've already put your track down then as shibushe says, you've got some remedial work to do to mount the point motors. Probably the easiest way but very much the most expensive, is to use Tortoise motors with their remote actuator cable and bracket accessory. This is great for motorising existing points as it only requires a 3mm hole to be drilled into the baseboard between the rails near the point's throw bar. Trouble is with the cost of the motor and the actuator you are looking at around £21 per point.  

[Dunsignalling]

I'm looking to add point motors to my small layout, which is currently wired for DCC. I'd ideally like to allow the points to be changed from either the controller or by using simple switches set into the front of the layout, in a more traditional style.

 

Is there a point control system which will allow this?

I have seen such motors in use and they were made by Traintronics. I gather they are designed with this in mind and don't need any modifications or extras to do so. I think they have a built-in DCC decoder so will presumably work off any DCC handset.

 

It shouldn't be too difficult to arrange with more conventional (older) types of motor because a DCC accessory decoder is effectively just a remote controlled switch.

 

There is probably a risk of damage to the decoder as the direct switching will introduce currents on its output side. However, there is almost certainly somebody on here who knows a way around that.

 

Good luck

 

John

[darren01]

HI

 

Have a look at these; http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/186/entry-8275-fitting-tous/ and this as well; http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/186/entry-8275-fitting-tous/

Hope this helps

Darren01

[10000]

NCE accessory decoders have the facility to add switches as well as operate via DCC system but you have to get the appropriate one for the type of motors you use.

I think the cobalt motors with the AD1 or AD4 decoders can also be operated by push button.

[pheaton]

I use a modretec lever frame with a single pole switch bank mounted below it to control my traintronics point motors, via a custom circuit, that i designed and had made, on printed circuit boards.

 

 

Excuse my iffy track work

 

 

 

the idea of the circuit board is to allow me to control 2 motors from one switch using the relay across a junction working in opposite directions. Works in practice and they are all now fitted to my layout  And then using the accessory switches on the tortoises they then operate my feathers

 

 

 

IMO points and signals really doesent work unless you have a touchscreen based controller with a layout on the screen or using point and click with a mouse you would still need to memorise the address of your point decoder and type it in. Plus also point motors with a built indecoders are expensive...although then again so are tortoises

 

However I switched to tortoises from conventional solenoid motors so I had gaping holes already drilled, as others have said if you have already laid your track drilling holes wont be easy......and you are likely to end up writing the point off doing it. I guess you could.....use a router from underneath if you can set the maximum depth on the tool, but that's going to be awkward......

 

Since I use a single pole switch I use this to operate the relay to reverse the polarity across both motors, im sure theres more simpler ways you could achieve the above though, I was just experimenting

 

Happy to show shots of the frame and the boards if anyone are interested

 

Thanks

Simon

[Nigelcliffe]

Hi Alan, now retyping everything since you just posted your system make. I'd say your best bet and best bang for your buck is with the CML DAC20. It will control 8 points from both the Zephyr + attached throttle, and from push buttons on a panel. I've been using them lately as a substitute for the no longer available Digitrax DS54.

 

I agree.   If you have a LocoNet based system (which includes Digitrax and Uhlenbrock), then make use of LocoNet.   CML products offer a lot of off-the-shelf options for control via DCC and local panels and computer screens - you can pick and mix any combination.   The Digitrax DS64 accessory decoder will also help in this arrangement, as will a few TeamDigital devices.  Another LocoNet option is the DIY and kit-built circuits from Hans De Loof.

 

 

Both CML and Hans De Loof circuits will need a computer for initial setup of the devices, though subsequent running does not need any computer.  So budget for a computer to loconet interface such as Digitrax PR3 or RR Cirkits LocoBuffer.

 

 

- Nigel

[Ron Ron Ron]

If you have a LocoNet based system (which includes Digitrax and Uhlenbrock), then make use of LocoNet.   CML products offer a lot of off-the-shelf options for control via DCC and local panels and computer screens - you can pick and mix any combination.........

 

One particular CML module, the DTM30 Super Tower Master, will allow a "traditional" hardware panel, or bank of switches/buttons/levers to be used for DCC switching of points and setting routes.

The module operates as a throttle on the LocoNet bus, therefore limiting the wires running from the panel to just a single throttle lead connection to LocoNet.

Using such a module eliminates the need to run any other wires from the panel to the layout.

You retain the option to operate from both handsets and the panel and it's compatible with computer screen operation too, if required.

 

 

 

 

 

.

[Ron Ron Ron]

IMO points and signals really doesent work unless you have a touchscreen based controller with a layout on the screen or using point and click with a mouse you would still need to memorise the address of your point decoder and type it in.

That isn't the case Simon.

In the case of Glass screen solutions, touchscreen or via a mouse, there is no need to type in an address to operate a point or route (except during the initial setting up).

 

.....and as for being limited to the Glass screen option, that's also not the case.

A hardware panel, bank of switches, individual switches (or buttons) or lever frame assembly (Modratec too if you wish) is also an option for a few DCC systems.

 

It's a myth to suggest that DCC operation of points and routes is limited to either punching an address into a handset, or to computer based operations. It simply isn't true.

 

 

Regards

Ron

.

[pheaton]

Ron,

 

Fair point, i stand corrected  i knew some touchscreen options like railmaster vastly simplied points operation under DCC.

 

Would there be an advantage wiring your points for use with DCC and using a bank of switches to control them as opposed to analogue control?

 

Thanks

 

Simon

[Nigelcliffe]

Ron,

 

Fair point, i stand corrected  i knew some touchscreen options like railmaster vastly simplied points operation under DCC.

 

Would there be an advantage wiring your points for use with DCC and using a bank of switches to control them as opposed to analogue control?

 

 

 

There is a cost equation - doing it with DCC requires some sort of decoder, and also some sort of encoder (such as the DTM30) to attach the switches.  But the wiring between the two is vastly simpler with DCC;  if you've already got a LocoNet based system there is no significant extra wire, you just attach another device onto the LocoNet.   But, network solutions will cost more money in most cases (the exceptions being ones where doing it with analogue is so complicated that nobody does it!).

 

There is the operation equation - if you're only having one panel of switches, then there is no difference in operation of the two systems.  But, using an advanced system (such as LocoNet) means that control can be on multiple panels in multiple places.  Each reflects what is happening on the other without requiring any extra wiring.   So, you could have two panels on a layout with over-lapping capabilities, plus control on a DCC handset, plus control on a computer screen, without requiring any additional electrics,  all fully coordinated with each other, all updating regardless of who made a change. 

 

There is the hassle of change equation - clearly if you change a physical panel's layout you have to move a switch.  But, with analogue, you also have to extract wires from a loom, move them to new locations, or add new wires to the loom (or design stuff with spare wires, spare connector pins, etc.. for the future changes).  With the advanced digital system, the changes are only in the local physical panel and very close to the track changes after any accessory device.   You don't have to wire between the two, that is a configuration (software setting) change made to the system. 

 

 

The balance of advantage and disadvantages depend on the individual.   There is NO SINGLE RIGHT WAY to do things.  What works well for one person may not be right for the next person or the next layout. 

 

 

- Nigel

[AlanRogers]

So budget for a computer to loconet interface such as Digitrax PR3 or RR Cirkits LocoBuffer.

 

Thanks Nigel. I already have a SPROG2 with which I successfully set up five locomotive decoders, so should be able to do an accessory decoder.

 

To everyone else, thanks for the discussion. It's very informative and I didn't realise that my options were so many. Some are overkill but others worth exploring.

[AndrewC]

Alan, that's one of the great things about the hobby. You can go from simple to over the top and anywhere in between. The same holds true for just about every aspect. You can have RTR stock on set track with ScaleScene buildings, dc control and a single pair of wires. You can also have scratch built fine scale models with MERG home built DCC decoders, hand built track, buildings, and full computer control to the nth degree.

[roundhouse]

We now use touch screens on a few layouts all connected to the Digitrax loconet.

 

see this link.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/50172-banbury-in-n-scale/?p=1053475

 

 

 

It save a huge amount of wiring. I originally wired part of the layout (when the used with Santa Barbara)  for DC just incase I didn't get to install enough decoders in the locos..

 Using DCC meant that the fiddleyard could be used on more than one layout as there was no wired control panel. The touch screens mimic each other and the turnout numbers are on screen just incase anyone wants to use the Digitrax throttles or wirelees control. It also helps with any fault finding if a turnout plays up.

 

yes it has taken some time to learn how to use JMRI, turnout feedback etc. but its definitely been worth it for me and our operators. All those who have operated the layout have welcomed the touch screens.

 

As Andrew C says you can take it to the nth degree if you wish such as block detection automatic signalling and even fully automated layout but that does involve more wiring.

[AlanRogers]

Thanks Ian. It's seeing layouts like Smrzovka and Banbury at shows that's prompting me to even look at this, and so my heir and apprentice gets to understand the method of point operation better.

 

However, touch screens et al are a way over the horizon as yet. Let's try to keep in mind that the layout we're talking about here is this one, with my own rolling stock!

[roundhouse]

Alan

 

Ah yes see what you mean. The screen would be almost as big as the layout!

 

Smrzovka is still old school DC cab control but one day....

 

Ian

[Nigelcliffe]

Thanks Nigel. I already have a SPROG2 with which I successfully set up five locomotive decoders, so should be able to do an accessory decoder.

 

To everyone else, thanks for the discussion. It's very informative and I didn't realise that my options were so many. Some are overkill but others worth exploring.

 

Alan -  the Sprog and the other devices are not quite the same thing.    The Sprog is a very good programmer device,  I have two of them, and I'd use it to program my locos in preference to anything else I own.   But, it is NOT a LocoNet device, so it cannot talk to LocoNet.  

 

This is really important.   The capabilities of the LocoNet devices discussed above is huge - primarily everything knows what is happening elsewhere -  but they communicate over a six-wire network and only other LocoNet devices can communicate with that network.   To setup any operational parameters in a LocoNet device which is anything but the simplest of devices will require a computer to perform the setup, and that means a computer to LocoNet interface is required.  

 

 

Your Sprog will be able to setup accessory decoders, and there are accessory decoders which let you add push-buttons to activate them in addition to operating from DCC commands.  BUT, those decoders cannot communicate their status back to your command station, so your command station (and anything else you own, other panels, etc.) will be unaware that someone has manually operated the accessory output.  For some people this isn't an issue, but if your control becomes more advanced it gets difficult if a panel or handset isn't automatically updated with the changes made elsewhere on the layout.   That's where layout control buses come into play, and LocoNet is one of those, it's what you already own in the Zephyr and it is one of the better supported layout control bus systems available.   So, my advice is to go with LocoNet based hardware from now rather than saving a few pennies and then finding the limitations cause problems later.

 

 

- Nigel

[roundhouse]

A Loco Buffer USB interface is what we use between the Digitrax Loconet and the PC. They are about £50 and do not require a separate power supply.

 

A Digitrax PR3  can also be used  both as stand alone programmer and also as an interface but you have to select this option when changing from one to the other operation.

 

s Nigel says the Sprog is very good for programming using JMRI and we use that with our stand alone test track that we take with us to shows.

 

Ian

[RAF96]

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/26693-wiring-point-motors-for-dc-andor-dcc-operation/

 

I use a dual dcc and manual points operating system. Just needs a couple of cheap car relays per point motor to link the two systems.

[Phil S]

The assumption seems to have been made that you're probably using Peco pointwork, in the comments about adding motors 8-). 'Other Makes are Available' 8-)

In 00/H0 I use Rocoline with Trackbed, which, as with Marklin C /. Trix C / Roco GEOline placed the point motor WITHIN the trackbed, and requires no holes through baseboards ... it even allows  analogue or digital control of the motors without additional accessory decoders .... greatly simplifying wiring  (they can even be powered from the track - although that has a disadvantage with live-fog mode on the points, if a train overruns the points 8-(.

 

However, back to 'separate' accessory decoders: the LENZ LS150 offers 6 outputs, of ac pulses upto 10seconds, using any numbering (not necessarilly sequential), from a separate 16Vac supply (so as not to draw current fom the track - for those using heavy inefficent type point motors [- it WILL operate peco motors apparently -  but for Zero-1 I used to wire them in series so as to reduce their operating current]). The LENZ LS150 can be operated by LOCAL PUSHBUTTONS  as well as by DCC from a suitable remote..(I use Roco Multimaus handsets which can be used for locos and accessories, single-handed) - so do not  NEED to be be tied to a central control panel,

Of course, some will observe that the LS150 has no feedback (unlike the ESU/Bachmann SwitchPilot or Veissmann Slow Motion 4550 or Lenz 100) ... but I use audible feedback for my point operation - especially with LGB in the garden - where it is essential to hear that the point was able to make an unobstructed movement due to twigs and Catkins falling onto the track during operation - not usually a problem indoors !! 8-)

 

Some other accessory decoders (such as the LGB point decoders) power themselves fom the track/dcc bus, and therefore do not need a separate power bus .. making for simpler wiring; one model of Hornby Accessory decoder having inbuilt CDU so that simply track/dcc bus powering is not a problem with certain solenoid motors.

 

'Glass Screens' can be used as Touch-input devices, or simply as repeater displays around the layout (I also use MERG steady-state-decoder-kits to replace Zero-1 Micromimic Display modules) ... in parallel to either Central Control Panel arrangements and/or handheld roving contol.