The second Tay Bridge

[Bon Accord]

Whilst crossing the Tay Bridge Northbound for the umteenth time this year, the piers of the original bridge were in clear view due to low tide. This got me thinking; some years back I recall hearing that some of the spans of the original bridge were re-used in the new bridge (where suitable) and I wonder if anyone knows if that's true and which spans are those concerned?

The Southern approach has a fairly uniform structure, but the Northern end has various different sizes of girder section, so I would presume if the story is true then it'll be one of those on the Dundee side.

[Edwin_m]

I feel sure I've read that the girders were re-used except the high ones which were all brought down in the collapse.  But I can't cite a reference. 

 

Looking at it on Bing Maps, and ignoring the fact their picture-stitching software can't cope, it's pretty clear that each old pier lines up with a new one, and I suppose this makes sense to minimise the disruption to navigation and water flow.  Perhaps each old span was simply lifted across onto the adjacent new piers, and extra metalwork added to make up the double track structure? 

[Lochty no more]

Most of the girders from the first bridge were found to be sound and re-used in the second tay bridge ( except the high girders which were on the river bed ) see "The Tay Bridge Disaster" by John Perkins for photo`s.

P.S. the Leven railway sacked Bouch for incompetence 20 years before he built the Tay Bridge!

Lochty

[keefer]

i think bouch was also involved in the st. andrews railway, with economies in construction causing difficulties later.

ISTR track not up to the loadings required and the timber piles of the bridge at guardbridge starting to deteriorate, despite claims they would last indefinitely

(can't find my oakwood press book to check)

 

edit: a brief entry on wikipedia mentions track to poor spec and untreated timber for the bridge piles

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Andrews_Railway

 

wiki entry for bouch himself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Bouch - seems he might have been remembered as a great railway engineer but for his tendency for cost-cutting etc.(often at the expense of safety)

this link also mentions the re-use of the original tay bridge girders:

 

"The remains of the original Tay bridge were demolished and replaced by an entirely new design by William Henry Barlow and his son Crawford Barlow. Some of the wrought iron girders were re-used in the new double track bridge by cutting them in half and re-welding to form wider structures for the track. The brick and masonry piers from the old bridge were left as breakwaters for the new piers, which were monocoques of wrought iron and steel."

[jamie92208]

I can confirm that the original girders, apart from the high ones were reused but with better piers.   I attended a very good lecture a few years ago organised by the Open University engineering faculty bwhere someone had done a proper investigation of what caused the disaster using modern techniques and the incredibly detailed plate glass negatives of the bridge taken after the crash.  There were several points but he two pertinent ones were (IIRC)

a)  The construction of the piers was scimped due toe finacial constraints so many more of them used cast iron rather than brick and stone.

b)   The cast iron ones didn't have enough bracing and the wedges that helf them together kept falling out this weakened the piers which then collapsed under the load from the wind pressure on teh high girders witha  train inside them.  The only girders that fell were the high ones so the other ones were reused but on new and more substantial piers.

 

Jamie

[uax6]

I have (somewhere) the pan paperback of the tay bridge disaster. The spans were indeed re-used, and there are a couple of photos showing the re-building in progress, with the arrangement for slewing the girders across. Needless to say that they had to provide new ones as the original bridge was single and the replacement double tracked.

 

Was it 'parsons egg' that was used to fill (and disguise) the holes in the cast iron pillars that formed the main piers?

 

Andy G

[keefer]

apols for cross post with jamie92208 - was busy editing when he posted - oops!

 

interestingly, the wiki entry states bouch's design for the forth bridge had been accepted, but only got as far as the foundation stone before being cancelled in the aftermath of the disaster

[Orinoco]

There are some fascinating images of the first bridge here and here

[jamie92208]

apols for cross post with jamie92208 - was busy editing when he posted - oops!

 

interestingly, the wiki entry states bouch's design for the forth bridge had been accepted, but only got as far as the foundation stone before being cancelled in the aftermath of the disaster

No problem.  I've also got the Pan paperback called 'The High Girders' but the lecture that i went to was most interesting.  The professor of engineering had studied all the evidence given at the inquest and inquiries and even tracked down the various bsamples that had been tested by a firnm of consulting engineers in London.  He then meticulously examined a set of enourmous plate glass negatives that had very fine detail on them and was able to work out the failure mechanism for the piers that supported the High Girders.   I've got an OU video that features it at home but obvioulsy can't post it but the whole cross bracing was held together with wedges and bolts.  The ones in coppression were fine but the ones under tension started snapping.  Apparently the wedges used to fall out regularly during the 9  months that the bridge was in use.

 

As an aside I took an old member of our club to the lecture.  John Wall, now not very well has made a marvellous P4 model of The Diver, the loco that fell off the bridge and the  model runs on Burntisland 1883.  One of John's sons is prt of the team.  The profesor who gave the lecture was really taken with the model.

 

Jamie

[Bon Accord]

apols for cross post with jamie92208 - was busy editing when he posted - oops!

 

interestingly, the wiki entry states bouch's design for the forth bridge had been accepted, but only got as far as the foundation stone before being cancelled in the aftermath of the disaster

 

Thanks for the earlier post, looking at some of the photos of the old bridge it now seems quite clear that the approach girders were reused. Bouch's Forth Bridge got as far as building the first bridge pier, this still exists today underneath the middle span of the Forth Bridge and has a small lighthouse atop it, see here: http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1071/4730683169_fd5b000e5a_z.jpg

 

An overall view with the lighthouse visible

 

[keefer]

thanks for the info jamie - i might have a look and see if any OU stuff is available out there. i take it they don't have much to do with the BBC anymore, used to love a lot of the engineering programmes

 

nice pic from the 2nd link in orinoco's post: http://www.leisureandculturedundee.com/sites/default/files/b14.033_3.png

shows the original junction for the newport railway was actually out over the water! had seen it mentioned on RAILSCOT, but hadn't seen a pic of it till now

 

nice link bon accord - one has to wonder what might have happened if bouch's forth bridge had been built!

[Pete 75C]

My mother grew up in the shadow of the new Tay bridge - her mother's mother remembered the night of the disaster very well, and it was an often told story, no doubt embellished a little to scare the children on a stormy night! The original bridge piers were used as staging points and anchorages for constructing the replacement. My great grandmother would often go down to the shore to watch and wait for my great grandfather to return at the end of a long day as he was a semi-skilled steelworker on the new bridge. There was much talk of bad luck for the new bridge as it was thought none of the old steel should be used - a local superstition that persisted for decades.

Pete.

[BR60103]

Was it 'parsons egg' that was used to fill (and disguise) the holes in the cast iron pillars that formed the main piers?

 

Andy G

I think it was "Beaumont Egg" that they called it.  Someone more recently found that art castings are filled with a mix of wax and filings that is called "beaumontage".

 

The Scots Magazine had an article suggesting that one of the high girders had been dropped and not perfectly straightened out before being installed.

[DOCJACOB]

Not defending Bouch totally, but he was usually told to design/build a railway to a budget. He was thus rather popular as he was sustantially cheaper then other contractors.

 

Hence to elabourate earlier postings he argued that preservative was not needed for the timber on the wooden tresle bridge over the River Eden on the St Andrews railway.

 

I also think the the Leven Railway case the curves on the line were too sharp to allow passage of the bought locomotives.

 

I seem also to remember some involvement and agument over point interlocking and the Peebles railway. He argued it was a total anathama, never seen it on other railways and he completely poo poo'd it.

[MRDEEDIESEL]

Being from the area The Tay Bridge has always been of interest to me.Im sure i read that the outer south spans are from the original and inner spans were constructed to of course allow the double track to be built and obviously make the whole thing a more robust structure.

If i can direct you all to Dundee City Councils wonderful Photopolis website you will see in great detail the construction of the 2nd Tay Bridge and the men who built it.This really is a treasure trove of photographs of the dismantling of the original and the building of the 2nd that i felt must it must be shared.It also throws up queries about the 2nd bridge such as when was the large girder arch which is now covered by Esplanade Station  removed?

Hopefully if anyone knows as i was led to believe that in all its years The Tay Bridge has only closed a few times and to remove a girder of that size must have required some sort of closure or is it still there hidden??

If you click

http://photopolis.dundeecity.gov.uk/catalog/49 you will see dozens of amazing detailed photos of both Tay Bridges

 

regards DD

[Pete 75C]

Excellent collection of pictures - I'd only ever seen one or two photographs of the bridge under construction. Many thanks for the link. Pete.

[uax6]

They are an excellent set of photos, just a shame thatmany are dups, and some are backwards. But having said that, they do exist and we can all enjoy them.

 

Those men were brave lads, especailly those <under> the girders while they were being jacked up, far braver than me... (is there any cheese about?)

 

Andy G

[Chameleon]

I have a copy of the original plans for Bouch's Forth bridge. They are about 8 feet long! It was to be a suspension bridge with 4 towers, two mounted together in the middle. The two tracks would run on parallel and separate decks.

Engineers who have studied them reckon a high wind could have set up resonance that would shake the whole thing to bits.

Probably safe to say it wouldn't still be around today or at least have been replaced by something more substantial.

[JohnR]

An interesting aside is that Bouch also designed the bridge over the South Esk estuary in Montrose, which allegedly had to be rebuilt to a different design after it bent and twisted.

 

The question is why did the replacement bridge not get built as double track, like the Tay Bridge?

[pete_mcfarlane]

I have a copy of the original plans for Bouch's Forth bridge. They are about 8 feet long! It was to be a suspension bridge with 4 towers, two mounted together in the middle. The two tracks would run on parallel and separate decks.

Engineers who have studied them reckon a high wind could have set up resonance that would shake the whole thing to bits.

 

Wasn't one of the criticisms of the first Tay Bridge that the structural calculations were based on guesswork about the maximum wind speed? These turned out to be far lower than reality.

[MJC-31A]

I have the book "Beautiful Railway Bridge of the Silvery Tay - reinvestigating the Tay Bridge disaster of 1879". It is written by Dr Peter Lewis a senior lecturer in Engineering at the Open University. So I assume that this is probably the same chap as gave the lecture that Jamie92208 attended. The books is just under 200 pages and as one would expect well written and includes contemporary photographs, detailed original drawings of the failing joints and all cross referenced to the witness statements etc from the Public Enquiry.

 

It is both a good read and also an ideal reference book, not only for the disaster but to working parctices at the time. 

[Strathyre]

Can't remember where I read this but apparently the viaduct over the North Calder Water in Airdrie on the Moffat Mills branch was built from parts reclaimed from the first Tay Bridge - really must try to remember the  source of that...

[bluebottle]

An evocative picture of a remnant from the first Tay bridge ...

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tom-swailes/3156658074/

 

[MRDEEDIESEL]

Hi all,

It was while researching another aspect of my city that i came across this website.

Brilliant photos showing the construction,completion,the aftermath of the disaster and the demolition of the 1st Tay Bridge plus more spectacular photos of the construction of its sturdy replacement.There are links to further info/arcticles too.

Amazing Images of both Tay Bridges.

regards.

Mr DD.

 

http://www.leisureandculturedundee.com/library/taybridge

[jeff mcghie]

the aftermath of the disaster and the demolition of the 1st Tay Bridge plus more spectacular photos of the construction of its sturdy replacement.

 

<Pedant mode>

 

Surely the 1st Tay Bridge is in Perth?

 

</pedant mode off>