For those interested in old cars.

[russ p]

Why would anyone want to race it,with all the mods to the shell it would probably need a new one anyway, so it would be better to start with a log book and a heritage shell

[Rugd1022]

Why would anyone want to race it,with all the mods to the shell it would probably need a new one anyway, so it would be better to start with a log book and a heritage shell

 

I've no idea Russ, but if it were mine it would be kept just as it was when it came out of Radford's workshop! It could be that the current owner isn't really aware of what a 'coachbuilt Mini' is or was.

[russ p]

If he isn't Nidge he must be a bit stupid as there is a massive hole in the back of the car surely he must question its origin.

He also could sell it and fund the purchase of a standard one

[vitalspark]

Intersting that the same period Discovery with LR designed and built Diesel engine and ZF autobox was more reliable than the L322 Diesel auto.

 

Just before the Ford Diesel V6 with rotating crank bearings.

 

 

I woudn't entirely agree with you there as I have owned both.

 

I don't know if you have direct experience of these units but I have heard many tales of woe from those who have only 'heard' about such things and not actually owned themselves.

 

I had the 5 cylinder TD5 engine replaced under warranty by LR at just under 4 years old and 35000 miles due to the head shifting on the block..a design fault and known on early models.

 

Car had been supplied and serviced by main dealers and with an extended warranty which was just as well.

 

After that the 5 cylinder unit was reliable enough but the transfer box continually leaked at the seal contaminating the handbrake drum on the transmission.

 

The air suspension was next to give issues and after couple of airbags admittedly easy to change at 15 mins in the path and under £100 the ACE hydraulics gave up when corroded pipes at the valve block failed.

 

Long story but resulted in coil conversion as many end up.

 

Throw in two electric sunroofs replaced under warranty due to leaks ..and yes it was a great car!

 

In comparison the L322 4.4 BMW petrol admittedly not diesel was reliable to a fault as was the rest of the car with only costs being age related and servicing.

 

The know weak spot on the L322 is the gearboxes which can be problematical and costly so an eye needs to be kept on them.

 

They are supposedly 'sealed for life' as far as transmission fluid is concerned but thats utter rubbish and a fluid change at 50k miles results in a super smooth box again that you had probably not noticed was going off a bit.

 

Sump change at same time because these things corrode and would mean fluids again which is costly plus the gearbox cooler pipes need checking for corrosion..I changed both as preventative measures.

 

They are both complex cars and need specialist servicing and preventative maintenance but on the whole the 322 was definitely better.

 

I owned the TD5 for 4 years and the L322 for 5 years so do have a fair bit of experience with them.

 

On the L322 diesel of the same age (2004) it was the same unit that was fitted to the BMW 530d which is a strong engine however turbo failure is not unknown and economy is poorer than the 5 cylinder LR unit so yes I would agree the homegrown unit as long as its post

 

2002 is the better choice..however the car thats built around it is definitely inferior and more problematical.

 

I still have LRs.. daughter has one and I have a Sport with a twin turbo SDV6 unit so glutton for punishment.

 

With the need for a strong tow vehicle I have had LRs since the early 3.5 V8s and spent more hours under them in the past than building models but thankfully they are not like that now plus I'm getting too old for it.

 

Happy motoring.

 

Dave.

Edited May 8, 2017 by vitalspark

[russ p]

Apparently when rover was part of the BMW group the engine with the least amount of warranty claims out of the whole BMW group was the rover 2.0 T series in the 220,420, 620 turbo and 820 plus a few discovery's

If rover had shrunk that to 1.6 and 1.8 instead of stretching the K series it may have still been around

Incidentally it also powered the fastest ever production rover the 220 turbo

Edited May 8, 2017 by russ p

[Rugd1022]

If he isn't Nidge he must be a bit stupid as there is a massive hole in the back of the car surely he must question its origin.

He also could sell it and fund the purchase of a standard one

 

Good point Russ and I agree, but even these days you'd be surprised, hence why some people are still fooled by fake Coopers and so on.

 

It kind of cuts both ways though with perceived knowledge when it comes to old Minis, I've lost count of the number of times I've been told my Mk2 S can't be a genuine Cooper because it doesn't have a white roof!

Edited May 8, 2017 by Rugd1022

[RJS1977]

Equally rare Peugeot 305 Estate in one of the photos.

 

And judging by its condition, they may well soon become rarer!

[Jol Wilkinson]

A good example of an everyday car failing to attract the "collectable classic" desirability. They were very good, practical, estate cars but like other family cars, few have survived.

[vitalspark]

 

 

The only reason for asking this is because I remembered that with my old 635CSi, it was discovered that the control arm bushes could be replaced by ones from the newer E32 750iL 

 

 

Now thats a Classic!..saw 635 CSIs for sale at Essen Techno Classica in April going for 6 figure sums.

[Horsetan]

Now thats a Classic!..saw 635 CSIs for sale at Essen Techno Classica in April going for 6 figure sums.

Yes, the auction market has gone a bit mad over the last few months, and this is filtering down into the private sales too. Good clean standard 635s are now regularly being offered for ten grand-plus.

 

Coys sold a 1986 M635CSi here a few weeks ago, a two-owner car which had only covered 15,300 miles since new (bit of a waste, really, as they were designed to be driven); it went for just over £100,000.

 

This is the one I used to have:

 

 

I owned and ran this one - VIN no.8185515, one of the first RHD cars to be built with the then new 4-speed ZF auto 'box at the tail end of 1982 - for 18 years. A lot of money was poured into its partial refurbishment in 2002, which permitted things like projector headlamps (the originals were never much good), brand new front wings (£400 + VAT per side at the time! You can buy GRP wings now which are indistinguishable from steel ones but which don't rust) and new bumper chrome.

 

Over the years I also converted the exterior lighting to all LED, and replaced the very expensive original metric wheels and tyres to imperial alloys cannibalised from an E34 M5 (8x17, with much cheaper 235/45/17 tyres). The life-expired standard suspension was replaced by Bilsteins and springs taken from the M635CSi, with half-a-degree negative camber, so it travelled about 20mm lower and a lot harder! I also replaced the steering wheel with one from the M6.

 

The chrome electric door mirrors were a pain because they were no longer produced, and I went through about five o/s mirrors from scrapped cars until I found one that actually worked properly.

 

What finally did for me was rust! The 6-Series bodyshells were built by Karmann and were not particularly well-rustproofed, so they can rot from the inside out. Virtually all of the surviving RHD cars have standard factory sunroofs which make them even more vulnerable because internal drainage tubes fail.

 

As happens to most of us, I sold the car not long before average values went up!

Edited May 9, 2017 by Horsetan

[Jol Wilkinson]

Ivan,

 

they were designed to make a large profit.

 

The driving bit is entirely coincidental, especially nowadays when driving a BMW is secondary to impressing people.

[Guest]

But why is he trying to feed it Guinness?

[vitalspark]

That is a stunning looking car and a credit to you.

 

I can't imagine wanting to part with it after the work carried out but when it cones to the tinworm a decision has to be made.

 

The good thing about such desirerable classics is that anything you spend on them will be realised in a sale.

 

Steel wings are more expensive but they will help retain value because purists will be knocking off £000s if you have flitted otherwise.

 

The big show at Essen in Germany with 21 halls indoors and more displays outside is Europes biggest possibly the worlds biggest and the cars going through auction are incredible with Gullwing mercs from the 50s fetching over a million quite common.

 

635CSIs were there too shoulder to shoulder with classic Porsches and Mercs and BMW who along with the other big German manufacturers have a hall of their own had an immaculate example in the usual Martini colours on show.

 

If you don't already there will come a time when you will wish you still had it!

 

Pint of Guinness is a nice touch too.

 

Dave.

[Horsetan]

Ivan,

 

they were designed to make a large profit....

Not sure about that, Jol. The E24 was BMW's flagship car at the time, but in terms of each one built and sold between 1976 and 1989, I don't think BMW made much money because they spent fortunes making it state of the art. They even had to save money by using the contemporary 5-Series floorpan (E12, and then E28) as a base.

 

Where they earned the money was in servicing. This and the contemporary E23 7-Series saloon were never made the subject of publicly accessible workshop manuals partly because BMW didn't want any old Tom, Dick or Jolyon doing DIY on an expensive complex car. Mine cost £23,000 when sold to its first owner in 1983. Publishers like Haynes also didn't think it worth the trouble to produce home mechanic books and, given that only about 86,000 cars were ever built over a 14-year production cycle, you can see why. The same goes for its successor, the E31 8-Series which was immeasurably more complex and which only saw about 27,000 cars built; not exactly a commercial success, but flagship cars rarely are.

 

I had to pay a small fortune for a specially-produced "Mobile Tradition" workshop CD-ROM, and this is the only manual ever made available for the E24. It was a mine of information.

 

That is a stunning looking car and a credit to you.

 

I can't imagine wanting to part with it after the work carried out but when it cones to the tinworm a decision has to be made.

I also had a custom-made stainless steel exhaust fitted in the last few years that I had the car. It resonated so strongly at low revs that I could set off other people's car alarms just by passing.

 

By 2014, the MoT failure list was as long as my forearm and all of it was rust-related. I sold it to another enthusiast and bought a Brassmasters LMS "Princess" kit instead.

 

Would I have another E24? Probably not. Remember I had 18 years with mine. I know what the principal weak points - and there are many - of the car are, and I've done a fair bit of mostly electrical and trim repair. Perceived values are now in silly territory, joining spare parts prices which have always been silly, so I really couldn't afford it now.

 

The good thing about such desireable classics is that anything you spend on them will be realised in a sale.

Not always. BMW parts have always been very expensive and, for old cars such as the E24, you have to wait for the next batch of parts to be made available before you can spend the money. Also, it assumes that you can keep the car long enough for the values to rise. Mine was sold about two years before the market for E24s of any stripe started to get very silly indeed.

 

Steel wings are more expensive but they will help retain value because purists will be knocking off £000s if you have fitted otherwise.

In the case of the E24, I'd have to disagree. A steel wing panel from BMW (and they are only available from BMW) is now £650 + VAT, and you still have to try to rustproof it. Compare that with £395 for a GRP wing from Xmoor Cars, which is absolutely indistinguishable from the real thing and which doesn't corrode. The panel bolts onto the same mounting holes on the inner wing and weighs a fraction of the original, which means less weight up front and an improvement in handling.

 

Edited May 9, 2017 by Horsetan

[Joseph_Pestell]

A good example of an everyday car failing to attract the "collectable classic" desirability. They were very good, practical, estate cars but like other family cars, few have survived.

My cousin had a 305 Estate when he was running a taxi business. Amazing car which just went on and on.......

[Joseph_Pestell]

Ivan,

 

they were designed to make a large profit.

 

The driving bit is entirely coincidental, especially nowadays when driving a BMW is secondary to impressing people.

BMW who visited us last weekend did not impress me very much. Got his car completely bogged down in our newly laid gravel driveway and even managed to remove some of the scalpings layer below the gravel. Had to pull him out with my 15-year-old Maverick.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Why stop at steel wings? I agree that replacing steel with GRP is bound to affect resale value.

 

But a friend of mine had an Alfetta GTV (he may still have it) which had a complete replacement GRP body. Simply magnificent and valuable in its own right as a rarity.

[keefr2]

Why would anyone want to race it,with all the mods to the shell it would probably need a new one anyway, so it would be better to start with a log book and a heritage shell

 

Depends what he paid for it. We got our 1275GT complete with all the basic rally equipment needed for it (even if the bodger who owned it before had no idea how to fit it properly!) & a 100+ bhp Steve Harris (ex-Downton) 1293 engine on a 45DCOE Weber. After the welding that would be needed on most 38 year old Mini's, replacing some time expired parts & purchasing the rest of the bits needed for a historic stage rally car, we still had change out of £4000. A heritage Clubman shell was £6000 + VAT at the time & needs a fair bit of modification to bring it back to 70's GT spec....

 

I do recall reading about a hatchback rally Mini somewhere, & the owner said a major advantage with it was the ability to easily carry two spare wheels. With an alloy tank, twin fuel pumps etc in the boot of a standard car it's difficult to get one in if you're running 13 inch wheels, & next to impossible to get one inside the back of the car between roll cage, door bars, bolted down seats, full harness belts et al....!!

 

Keith

[Horsetan]

My cousin had a 305 Estate when he was running a taxi business. Amazing car which just went on and on.......

 

The diesels were particularly long-lived and very frugal. Not turbocharged, though.

 

Why stop at steel wings? I agree that replacing steel with GRP is bound to affect resale value.

 

I think this is less important if you see your car as something to be driven rather than as a pseudo-investment. In the case of the E24, the wings are particularly prone to rot (the car is famous for it!) and I still say that having GRP wings is sensible.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Ivan,

 

the manufacturer only makes money from replacement parts, the dealers from servicing.

 

I spent almost all my working life in the motor industry and increasingly the supply of "pattern parts" became big business, especially for for higher volume production cars. I always found it remarkable what would be copied. Panels, that require a large investment in tooling were popular, but smaller trim items weren't. Pattern panels were also often of poor quality, requiring a certain amount of reworking to get them to fit, obviating any initial savings.

 

Certain continental manufacturers were also very keen on protecting their image through policing. as best they could, the supply of copy parts. It wasn't unusual to find items that even included the manufacturers logos, etc. to make them look original. However, the law seemed very "foggy" on such issues, probably to help keep the legal profession in employment.

 

Jol

[Rugd1022]

A couple of great period film clips here from the 'AP' archive, sadly there's no sound though...

 

Peter Sellers and Britt Ekland at the Radford Works / dealership in King Street, Hammersmith in October '65, the hatchback was his birthday present to her. My nan worked in Edward Edwards department store opposite and remembered it very well...

 

 

Another early Radford Mini with it's own carrying service...!

 

 

I could watch this sort of thing all day...

[Horsetan]

.....I spent almost all my working life in the motor industry and increasingly the supply of "pattern parts" became big business, especially for for higher volume production cars. I always found it remarkable what would be copied. Panels, that require a large investment in tooling were popular, but smaller trim items weren't. Pattern panels were also often of poor quality, requiring a certain amount of reworking to get them to fit, obviating any initial savings.

 

Pattern parts have always been variable - I am aware of "kwalitee" problems coming out of Turkey and China, for example. The n/s wing panel on my current Bora TDi is a pattern one - I believe it came out of China, and was supplied ready-sprayed in the correct colour, and yes, I did have problems fitting it because the flitch plate was distorted, but I got there in the end!

 

There were never any pattern body panels for the E24, so this didn't apply, and not much in the way of trim. The Xmoor GRP panels I mentioned were a fairly recent innovation and, if they had been available back in 2002, I would have bought these in preference to the original steel panels.

 

Incidentally, OEM producers of a good many spares for the car were Febi, Meyle and Lemforder - those were the ones I generally used. Meyle E32 heavy-duty steering control arm bushes were a very good, long-lasting upgrade - much better than the E24 originals.

[New Haven Neil]

Tell me about BMW parts - having had 3 BMW bikes.  Still looking for the gold plating.  Still, they don't often do wrong but the price of replacement discs (there weren't aftermarket ones available then - are now) was terrifying.  IIRC almost £300 for one, something like 25 years ago.  The current (1993) one doesn't seem to wear discs the way the older ones did. 

 

A replacement seat for my new Honda was obviously on a copied seat base, with the brand logo ground off!  Much more comfortable than Mr H's attempt though.

[vitalspark]

Clever stuff but things have moved on a bit now..mind you at £1.2m..!

 

 

D.

[vitalspark]

Outside our local Vintage bus garage..

 

 

..and inside

 

 

Dave.