2 BIL to Blue BIL

[Colin parks]

Don't believe anyone who says P4 modellers do not bodge - we do - it is just that there are a few who will pretend they don't.  Let me say that if you agonise over the position of a toilet window and then decide not to ignore it, you have proved that you are fully the master of tight tolerances!

 

What Miss Prism says about P4 being irrelevant is of course perfectly true - good modelling is good modelling - but first-class stock looks even better on first-class track, as Simon has demonstrated at SMH.

 

As I have said before, if you do decide to dip your toes in, you will find lots of friends willing to help. And this talk of a collaboration sounds interesting...

 

Looking forward to the 4Sub in the meantime,

 

Best wishes,

 

Howard.

Ah well Howard, if I'm still allowed to do some bodging, I might consider a move to P4.  However, your track-work doesn't look bodged and nor does Simon's! 

 

The 4 SUB will be following shortly.  As with  the more recent models, it will have some provision for a change of gauge. 

 

All the best,

 

Colin

 

Colin

[Colin parks]

No i don't model in P4 being a long time NG modeller but i do really enjoy seeing good modelling in all scales and find it very inspiring as i have with your modelling, but what i have noticed with you is your attention to dimensions and détails, it was for this reason that P4 seems a logical move, but obviously a big step to make.

Hi Tigermoth,

 

You are right in saying that I am rather fastidious in terms of getting things as right as possible.  The most rewarding part of all these projects is to find the information or be given it to create something that looks, as far as possible, 'how it was'.  The fascination with scratch-building coaches from plastic has been with me since my early teens (only realised some 35 years later). It is this aspect which interests me more than the track on which the models run. However, having looked at some P4 layouts, I can see the shortcomings of my layout in terms of realistic appearance. 

 

Will have to have a think!

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[Colin parks]

Moving to P4 seems something of an irrelevance to Colin's work in my view, although no doubt he would find it a walk in the park. Moving from blue to green might be a far greater challenge...

Hi Miss Prism,

 

Thanks for your comments.  I'm not sure P4 is as easy as chopping up plastic sheet - at least for me!  As for green liveried stock, I do fancy doing the 4 SUB in late BR green, as some units carried this livery into the 1970's. So there!

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[Guest oldlugger]

A collaboration with Colin would be terrific of course; if ever we (my wife and I) move back to the UK, especially to Wales... who knows? With two of us at the work bench all kinds of possibilities would be possible... er, something like a prototypical southern region inner London suburban station with a flying junction and private industrial sidings!

 

All the best

Simon

Edited August 26, 2013 by oldlugger

[SRman]

Watch out Colin; Simon has *plans* already!!  

[Miss Prism]

I'm not sure P4 is as easy as chopping up plastic sheet - at least for me!

 

It's probably fair to say chopping up plastic sheet is marginally more therapeutic.

[Colin parks]

A collaboration with Colin would be terrific of course; if ever we (my wife and I) move back to the UK, especially to Wales... who knows? With two of us at the work bench all kinds of possibilities would be possible... er, something like a prototypical southern region inner London suburban station with a flying junction and private industrial sidings!

 

All the best

Simon

Gosh Simon!

 

How many 4 SUBs will we need for that?!

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[Colin parks]

As a postscript to the construction of the 2BIL, a view of the toilet windows seemed appropriate.  The finish is not perfect I admit!

 

 

Having had a bit of 'build-fatigue' towards the end, the original Hornby toilet windows remain in place and white and the 'obscured glass' replacements have not been fitted as at first intended.

 

 

Colin

[Ceptic]

Headcodes in.

 

IMG_6956.JPG

 

Recognise those numerals Frank?! The actual printed numbers are on ordinary 80gsm paper, just to get an idea of the appearance. The stencil code looks just right to me. the paper can be removed if experiments with matt photo paper produces a sharper, denser black. But for now, it looks fine.

 

One way of printing to 4mm scale: Using Microsoft, the downloaded file from here http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/73227-sr-brs-emu-route-numbers/page-2&do=findComment&comment=1124171 was printed onto 6" x 4" glossy photo paper (selecting 4 images to the page), then copied at 40% reduction on an Epson multi-function printer.

 

With many thanks to Ceptic,

 

Colin

 

Thanks for the plug and re-sizing tip Colin.   Is that the photo-paper version of the headcode in post # 294's pic. ?

I might alter the stencils' art(?)work webbing thickness to cater for the over-thickness when reduced to scale...Needs some experimentation !

 

Your mods / improvements to this model have, certainly, produced another 'Good looker', although I am surprised at how many inaccuracies it's shown up on the Hornby effort.

They do seem to be finding it difficult to throw off their rush-job, toy-like approach (those battleship rivets !) to some models (Emus in particular).

 

Thanks for sharing and showing how it's done. 

 

All the best,

 

Frank.

[Judge Dread]

Colin and Ceptic, I must first compliment you both on your particular work with the stencils for the Blue 2-BIL project. By chance I came across whilst having a tidy up (dust resettlement programme) a double set of commercial brass etched plates. The fact that numbers 1 and 8 are missing in both sets points me towards the building of "Chessington (Chalk Lane) for the Hull MRS in about 1997.

I just cannot remember where I got them, "Branchlines" is favourite but I just cannot be sure.

If you could make use of them, PM me with your address and I will gladly send them on.

 

[Colin parks]

Thanks for the plug and re-sizing tip Colin.   Is that the photo-paper version of the headcode in post # 294's pic. ?

I might alter the stencils' art(?)work webbing thickness to cater for the over-thickness when reduced to scale...Needs some experimentation !

 

Your mods / improvements to this model have, certainly, produced another 'Good looker', although I am surprised at how many inaccuracies it's shown up on the Hornby effort.

They do seem to be finding it difficult to throw off their rush-job, toy-like approach (those battleship rivets !) to some models (Emus in particular).

 

Thanks for sharing and showing how it's done. 

 

All the best,

 

Frank.

Hi Frank,

 

The head code has not been changed.  The only thing that could be improved is the density of the black printing - the numerals might be sharper with matt photo paper.  There is not a lot of room for manoeuvre on the Hornby 2 BIL head code boxes, as there is a moulded-on clip at the top of the panel, which requires the home-printed numerals to be notched to fit.  Having said that, it isn't hard to do and the result is as you see in post #294, taken at 6" distance and post #287 at 3".  Pretty good I'd say! 

 

As for those 'rivets',  there are absolutely none on a 2 BIL body - Godfrey Glyn has kindly sent me photos which prove that to be so.  Even the fixings on the cab roof domes are screws - although they are the same size as the Hornby 'rivets' to be fair.  The real 2 BILs had body sheeting held in place with what I would call no. 12 'raised-head' wood screws with a slotted head (they could be 10 gauge screws with larger heads but the appearnace is the same).  The 'production' 2 BILs had Alpax aluminium fixed window frames held in place by screws in counter-sunk holes which are hardly visible on the real thing (i.e. in pictures of unit 2090 in Godfrey's photos). 

 

As for what had to be changed  and why will probably never be explained, I am no longer interested.   Onwards to the 4 SUB !

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[Colin parks]

Colin and Ceptic, I must first compliment you both on your particular work with the stencils for the Blue 2-BIL project. By chance I came across whilst having a tidy up (dust resettlement programme) a double set of commercial brass etched plates. The fact that numbers 1 and 8 are missing in both sets points me towards the building of "Chessington (Chalk Lane) for the Hull MRS in about 1997.

I just cannot remember where I got them, "Branchlines" is favourite but I just cannot be sure.

Stencil.JPG

If you could make use of them, PM me with your address and I will gladly send them on.

Hi JD,

 

Those etched numerals are very neatly done.  I had some which have half-etched numbers that have to have the white painted in on the black background - not easy!  It looks like yours are etched-through and  to be placed on a white backing. 

 

I shall PM you as they might come in useful for the 4 SUB, as '42' is a common code for the Seaford branch. (I have yet to build the model but hey,  why not start with the numbers!).

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[HAB]

JD, the headcode stencils look very much like the Roxey ones:-

 

http://www.roxeymouldings.co.uk/product/405/4emu24-headcode-number-stencils/

 

 

Colin, the finished job looks great and it is surprising just how much better it looks than the starting point.  Just shows that detail matters - certainly when it is excellently executed

 

Well done and good luck with the 4Sub - a quite different kettle of fish!

 

 

At risk of us all banging on about them, a good view of the "Rivets" in this pic...

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/12a_kingmoor_klickr/6262178156/in/photostream/

 

 

Best wishes,

 

Howard

Edited August 28, 2013 by HAB

[Colin parks]

JD, the headcode stencils look very much like the Roxey ones:-

 

http://www.roxeymouldings.co.uk/product/405/4emu24-headcode-number-stencils/

 

 

Colin, the finished job looks great and it is surprising just how much better it looks than the starting point.  Just shows that detail matters - certainly when it is excellently executed

 

Well done and good luck with the 4Sub - a quite different kettle of fish!

 

 

At risk of us all banging on about them, a good view of the "Rivets" in this pic...

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/12a_kingmoor_klickr/6262178156/in/photostream/

 

 

Best wishes,

 

Howard

Thanks for the links Howard.

 

Those Roxey etches do look the same as the ones in Judge Dread's pic.  Many thanks also for your comments on the work.  As I have said on my layout topic, the total time taken has been about 80 hours, so it was just as well the outcome was satisfactory.  

 

The 4 SUB will present quite a different set of challenges, although building  the Tin HAL has given me some experience of what lies ahead. 

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[Judge Dread]

JD, the headcode stencils look very much like the Roxey ones:-

 

http://www.roxeymouldings.co.uk/product/405/4emu24-headcode-number-stencils/

 

 

Colin, the finished job looks great and it is surprising just how much better it looks than the starting point.  Just shows that detail matters - certainly when it is excellently executed

 

Well done and good luck with the 4Sub - a quite different kettle of fish!

 

 

At risk of us all banging on about them, a good view of the "Rivets" in this pic...

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/12a_kingmoor_klickr/6262178156/in/photostream/

 

 

Best wishes,

 

Howard

Yes indeed, that was the memory nudge I needed.

[Ceptic]

JD, the headcode stencils look very much like the Roxey ones:-

 

http://www.roxeymouldings.co.uk/product/405/4emu24-headcode-number-stencils/

 

 

Colin, the finished job looks great and it is surprising just how much better it looks than the starting point.  Just shows that detail matters - certainly when it is excellently executed

 

Well done and good luck with the 4Sub - a quite different kettle of fish!

 

 

At risk of us all banging on about them, a good view of the "Rivets" in this pic...

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/12a_kingmoor_klickr/6262178156/in/photostream/

 

 

Best wishes,

 

Howard

 

I agree,...a Roxey Mouldings' accessory*,...Always there when you need them. A Purveyor of expert, scale, reproductions of odd-ball models, including Southern electrics.

 

* I've got a couple of these etches tucked away,...somewhere ?...ready to fit Hornby's 2-BILs...but, they're never there,... when I need them.

 

Cheers,

 

Frank.

[Ceptic]

Colin and Ceptic, I must first compliment you both on your particular work with the stencils for the Blue 2-BIL project. By chance I came across whilst having a tidy up (dust resettlement programme) a double set of commercial brass etched plates. The fact that numbers 1 and 8 are missing in both sets points me towards the building of "Chessington (Chalk Lane) for the Hull MRS in about 1997.

I just cannot remember where I got them, "Branchlines" is favourite but I just cannot be sure.

Stencil.JPG

If you could make use of them, PM me with your address and I will gladly send them on.

 

Many thanks JD. for your offer.

 

Preferably, Colin can put these to better use, than I.

 

I'm pretty sure that those are from Roxey Mouldings, IIRC.

I know I've got, at least, a couple of these etches, somewhere ?. I was hoping to feature them on this topic....but. failed...

 

They're also included in their 2-NOL & 3-SUB Kits, both in 4mm. & 7mm. scale.

 

http://www.roxeymouldings.co.uk/category/17/4mm-scale-sr-electric-units-/

 

http://www.roxeymouldings.co.uk/category/61/7mm-scale-sr-electric-units/

 

Thanks again,  

 

All the best,

 

Frank.

[SRman]

Colin and Ceptic, I must first compliment you both on your particular work with the stencils for the Blue 2-BIL project. By chance I came across whilst having a tidy up (dust resettlement programme) a double set of commercial brass etched plates. The fact that numbers 1 and 8 are missing in both sets points me towards the building of "Chessington (Chalk Lane) for the Hull MRS in about 1997.

I just cannot remember where I got them, "Branchlines" is favourite but I just cannot be sure.

Stencil.JPG

If you could make use of them, PM me with your address and I will gladly send them on.

 

Most likely Roxey Mouldings but could also be Blacksmith Models. I have some Roxey ones and they need to be cut down in overall size slightly to fit.

 

They also did some letter headcode stencils.

[dasatcopthorne]

Hi Nigel,

 

The next EMU will be  4 SUB 4377.  You will soon be able to find the topic in the Kitbuilding & Scratchbuilding sub-forum (no pun intended!) - after my nerves have recovered from this project.

 

All the best,

 

Colin

 

Colin.

 

Got loads of 4Sub photos and measurements but never photographed 4377.

 

When I first set out the unit numbers in my little log book, I gave 4377 its own sub-catagory so there must be something different about this unit. Could just be the seating/compartment layout or something more detailed but I don't now know why.

 

 

Dave

[dasatcopthorne]

Colin.

 

Sorry, meant to say what a fabulous job you've done on the Bil.

 

Dave

[dasatcopthorne]

Colin.

 

Got loads of 4Sub photos and measurements but never photographed 4377.

 

When I first set out the unit numbers in my little log book, I gave 4377 its own sub-catagory so there must be something different about this unit. Could just be the seating/compartment layout or something more detailed but I don't now know why.

 

 

Dave

 

Found the following Colin.

 

Quote;

 

From;  The 4 Sub Story. Southern Electric Group

In general, interior design has been covered in earlier sections describing the

`4 Sub's' as built. Here various details and modifications, many of a minor nature. are considered at greater length.

The most important experimental vehicle from the earlier batches of ` 4 Sub' units was trailer 10463 of 4377. Several of its features were incorporated into the open coaches of the production batches, in particular non-subdivision of the interior and armrests at the inner ends of the seating units. Few of the experi­

ments tried out on various other coaches proved a success, and were usually removed at the first opportunity. Perhaps this shows the soundness of the basic design.

 

 

 

From;   Southern Region Multiple-unit Trains.  Southern Electric Group

 

The next batch of units entered service in 1947/48 in reverse numerical order, starting at 4377 and working back to 4355. Accommodation reverted to all ­compartment, except for one trailer in 4377 which was a saloon without any intermediate partitions. This vehicle, 10463, which is still in service, had advertising panels between the tops of the seat backs and the luggage racks, a feature that was not repeated. 4377 had a total seating capacity of 402. 4364­4376 had the same formation and seating capacity as 4111-20, but 4355-63 had no "composite" trailer and thus had an increased seating capacity of 432.

 

Withdrawn April 1976.

 

 

 

Hope this helps but you probably already knew, that's why you chose 4377.

 

Dave

[Colin parks]

Found the following Colin.

 

Quote;

 

From;  The 4 Sub Story. Southern Electric Group

In general, interior design has been covered in earlier sections describing the

`4 Sub's' as built. Here various details and modifications, many of a minor nature. are considered at greater length.

The most important experimental vehicle from the earlier batches of ` 4 Sub' units was trailer 10463 of 4377. Several of its features were incorporated into the open coaches of the production batches, in particular non-subdivision of the interior and armrests at the inner ends of the seating units. Few of the experi­

ments tried out on various other coaches proved a success, and were usually removed at the first opportunity. Perhaps this shows the soundness of the basic design.

 

 

 

From;   Southern Region Multiple-unit Trains.  Southern Electric Group

 

The next batch of units entered service in 1947/48 in reverse numerical order, starting at 4377 and working back to 4355. Accommodation reverted to all ­compartment, except for one trailer in 4377 which was a saloon without any intermediate partitions. This vehicle, 10463, which is still in service, had advertising panels between the tops of the seat backs and the luggage racks, a feature that was not repeated. 4377 had a total seating capacity of 402. 4364­4376 had the same formation and seating capacity as 4111-20, but 4355-63 had no "composite" trailer and thus had an increased seating capacity of 432.

 

Withdrawn April 1976.

 

  

 

Hope this helps but you probably already knew, that's why you chose 4377.

 

Dave

Hi Dave,

 

Thanks for all your information re. 4 SUB 4377. I had chosen that particular unit due to its non-standard features. However, I would like to finish the forthcoming model in late BR green, and have found an example still in (very shabby) green as late as 1970

http://www.flickr.com/photos/22281745@N05/6390121701/in/photolist-aJF3y6-dQ42h5-fhpHJ2-9gWo4F-dTurMS-9apVs5-9eTG9e-9dw4E4-9arK23-aomDiL-bUGojC-aiC8fV-efcTeS-92UwLu-9dAzMa-92aDSn-8JAWzS-9nWuyB-9eXy7J-cjanes-eoaXib-fhpHKZ-9tNAGE I have been in contact with Natalie, who has seemingly endless records on these matters. It looks like 4377 would have been re-painted before the 70's, so I might go for 4630 instead - unless a 70's picture of a 4 SUB (with a TC) still running in green turns up.

 

I shall get around to starting a topic soon!

 

All the best,

 

Colin

 

Colin

[4630]

It looks like 4377 would have been re-painted before the 70's, so I might go for 4630 instead - unless a 70's picture of a 4 SUB (with a TC) still running in green turns up.I shall get around to starting a topic soon!All the best,ColinColin

A very good choice of number Colin IMHO!

 

It was the last unit I needed to 'clear' the Subs in the early 1970s when I collected numbers and as I always had a soft spot for the Subs it was a natural choice when selecting a name to use on this forum.

[Colin parks]

A very good choice of number Colin IMHO!

 

It was the last unit I needed to 'clear' the Subs in the early 1970s when I collected numbers and as I always had a soft spot for the Subs it was a natural choice when selecting a name to use on this forum.

Hi Russ,

 

The coincidence has not occurred to me until you pointed it out! 4360 did run in green until 1970, but did not have a trailer composite - I now found out. So perhaps your 'exclusive rights' to the unit number will remain.

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[Colin parks]

4 SUB topic set up here

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/75582-4-sub-provisionally-4377-or-4630/&do=findComment&comment=1143886

 

Colin