Rick_Skateboard Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 Hello All. Here is a picture of 26034 shunting an engineers train at Kyle of Lochalsh in July 1983. The train appears to be made up of a BR 20T brake van, a bogie bolster (possibly LMS of BR built?) and a couple of OCAs and OBAs. My question is, would this train have been worked unfitted? The OBA/OCAs must be air braked, but I struggle to believe that the bogie bolster or the brake van would be air braked or even through piped. Perhaps it was worked with the air braked wagons behind the loco as a fitted head? Kyle Of Lochalsh. by curly42, on Flickr Any info on these workings would be great as I have an increasing number of older type engineers wagons in my model fleet, but I am eyeballing the nice air braked wagons Bachmann do now! Cheers. Rick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMS2968 Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 Judging by the side lamp on the brake, at least the rear part of the train was unfitted. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 Depends partly on the period you wish to represent. Many engineers' wagons were built without continuous brakes. only some having them retro-fitted subsequently. David Larkin's book on departmental rolling stock will be very helpful. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 30, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 30, 2013 It also depends when the ScR went over to fully fitted - possibly not by that date? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick_Skateboard Posted July 30, 2013 Author Share Posted July 30, 2013 Thanks guys. I didn't realise the brake van lamps were an indication that the train was partially fitted. Now I think about it, is it fair to say that if the train was fully fitted it probably wouldn't have a brake van at all? I should have specified, this is the period I want to model - 1980s/90s Scotland. Rick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhall Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 Thanks guys. I didn't realise the brake van lamps were an indication that the train was partially fitted. Now I think about it, is it fair to say that if the train was fully fitted it probably wouldn't have a brake van at all? I should have specified, this is the period I want to model - 1980s/90s Scotland. Rick I think what LMS2968 meant was that the presence of a tail lamp at the near end of the brakevan might indicate that the train had arrived at KofL with the loco on the other end, and the OBA/OCA as a fitted head, and that the loco had just run round and shunted its train into that siding. J Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold griffgriff Posted July 30, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 30, 2013 ... and is it an engineers train? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 30, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 30, 2013 ... and is it an engineers train? The formation suggests that it might be - the opens are clearly marshalled like that for a reason (or a very remarkable coincidence) and a wagon loaded with rails adjacent to some recent relaying work suggest a probable link. Was freight still running to Kyle at that date? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick_Skateboard Posted July 30, 2013 Author Share Posted July 30, 2013 I'm pretty sure it is an engineers train, and I'm pretty sure revenue freight had stopped at Kyle by then. The same train is pictured earlier in its journey, near Stromeferry, in the Oakwood Press book 'Rails to Kyle of Lochalsh'. In the picture the air braked open wagons appear to have sleepers in them. Here's another picture of a similar train on the Far North lines, 37114 with an OCA full of sleepers. BR Class 37 37114 with engineers' train, Dingwall, 5th. September 1988. by Crewcastrian, on Flickr http://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/5648827372/ A similar (possibly the same?) train at Dingwall. Rick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 Does the picture earlier in the journey have the brake van on the rear? And is it possible to read the three-letter TOPS code on the brake van in either picture? If the final letter of the TOPS code is A or B then air brakes are fitted but may not be in use. However most brake vans with any air brake equipment at all were just piped. If the piped or unfitted van as the last vehicle then the train must be running partially fitted or unfitted. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 The Bogie Bolster looks almost as though it could be a Gane A (ex-GWR-designed 60' rail carrier); these weren't fitted, so my money would be the train having worked to Kyle as a partially-fitted working. If it were simply to run round, with the the bolster betwixt loco and opens, then it would be unfitted. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastwestdivide Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Just to add, I think the "OCA" wagons in the first photo are in fact SPA plate wagons (sides not so high), although examples of both types were allocated to the engineers around then. It's also possible (perhaps unlikely) that the two lots of wagons arrived on different services, one vac and one air braked, and we're just seeing them being shunted around for work on the centre road. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Just to add, I think the "OCA" wagons in the first photo are in fact SPA plate wagons (sides not so high), although examples of both types were allocated to the engineers around then. It's also possible (perhaps unlikely) that the two lots of wagons arrived on different services, one vac and one air braked, and we're just seeing them being shunted around for work on the centre road. You're correct: ex-SPA (Pike) and ex-OBA (Bass) wagons. The OCAS were almost brand-new when the photo was taken, so not many had gone over to Departmental use. I did see one at Tyneside Central Freight Depot in early 1984, though it was carrying bricks for Butterley- I think I used it to accompany an article in Modeller. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Boyd Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Rick, side lamps were carried on brake vans of unfitted/partially fitted trains as an indication to footplate crews that the train was complete and in certain instances as an indication to trains traveling in the same direction what line the train was on. Side lamps had forward and backward facing lenses, the forward facing lenses displayed a white light and the rear facing lenses either a red or white light(depending on what line the train was on), a red shade in a removable slide could be slid behind either lens. Fitted trains only needed to carry a single tail lamp, any division of the train would have course be indicated by a brake application when the train divided. Mick. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irishswissernie Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 I'm pretty sure it is an engineers train, and I'm pretty sure revenue freight had stopped at Kyle by then. The same train is pictured earlier in its journey, near Stromeferry, in the Oakwood Press book 'Rails to Kyle of Lochalsh'. In BR Class 37 37114 with engineers' train, Dingwall, 5th. September 1988. by Crewcastrian, on Flickr http://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/5648827372/ A similar (possibly the same?) train at Dingwall. It wasn't the same train, in my view the wagons are in the bay which had been lifted in the 1988 shot. I think I took this ca 1984. Freight was still running to Kyle in June 1982, mainly coal (there are several views on my Flickr Dingwall & Skye Set) I think it finished later that year with the demise of vacumn braked services. Ernie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
philwaglab Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 From 1977 onwards all coal traffic from South Wales to Scottish railheads had to be vac fitted.Any unfitted wagons for Scotland despatched from South Wales collieries would be re routed to an alternative destination. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vince minto Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 one small point the 26 is only vac braked on the train.they were only dual braked after the boiler was removed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMS2968 Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 I've only just seen Post 6, so no, that isn't exactly what I meant. If the train were fully fitted, the brake could be anywhere in the formation, but if not it must go at the rear. The reference to the side lamps was this: a fully fitted goods train would, like all others carry a tail lamp on the rear vehicle, but nothing else. The presence of the side lamp indicates the brake was at the rear of the train because an unfitted or partially fitted train would, in addition to the tail lamp, carry two side lamps. There are all sorts of rules about what happens to the lamps if the train were to be put inside or running on a four-track section, but both side lamps would still be there. Generally, if a train were an unfitted one, the driver would occasionally look back to make sure that the train was still complete; if the rear, unfitted part had broken away, that's the only way he had of knowing. But if he had a long train composed of many vans, particularly at the rear, and especially at night, he would be unable to distinguish the unmarked brake from the rest of the train. The side lamps protruded just enough to be visible from the loco, and so told the driver that the brake was still there and his train was still intact. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesysmith Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 As to the above comment, when I enlarge the photo, I can see a yellow and white air pipe, and a vac pipe, but no red pipe. IIRC the white is engine control pipe, the yellow is loco brakes, meaning this loco is vac braked only and even with the SPA/OBA in the train it would have run as a unfitted freight. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phill Dyson (onslaught832) Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 The freshly ballasted track at the side of the train may be a clue that it's an engineers train? Lol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swindon 123 Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 The last time I have evidence of working an unfitted/partially fitted engineers train was in August 1987. They where getting rare by then, but the daily pick up from Hereford to STJ could end up being partially fitted on a lot of occasions as it would often be used to convey unfitted or vac fitted engineers wagons along with air braked stuff. Shortly after in 1988 there was an influx of vacuum fitted tipplers into engineers use, in the Hereford area, as spoil wagons along with vacuum fitted grampus as more redundant air brake wagons where transferred to engineers use and unfitted grampus and the like where eliminated. I certainly can't find any photos that I took of unfitted wagons after 1987, and I would have taken shots if I had seen them. Paul J. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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