Near-Enough O scale Sydney Trams?

[hartleymartin]

I've taken a look at the Bachmann On30 Tramcars, and the Lindberg California Cable Car kit and I reckon it might be possible to do a few fairly decent circa 1900 Sydney Trams with them.

The Lindberg Kit. Marketed as 1:25 for some reason, but it is actually a 1:48 scale kit which has been around for a long time and sold by several different companies over the years.

 

And the Bachmann On30 Enclosed Streetcar

 

 

 

Sydney C Class Tramcars (1896-1926):
4 or 5 are preserved and they vary from 6 to 9 windows in the sides. It may be possible to take the Bachmann On30 Tramcar and mount it onto a standard gauge chassis to produce a near-enough C class Tramcar:

 

 

 

 

Sydney D Class Tramcars (1899-1920s):

These were a 4-wheel "California" Style Tramcar, which were forerunners to the F Class
Colour Picture of a D class tramcar: http://www.flickr.com/photos/74004041@N06/7247728002/

 

 

Sydney F Class Tramcars (1900-1906):
"California" style once again. However, they were found to have insufficient capacity, so the were modified in 1906/7 into the L class.

 

... these were rebuilt into:
Sydney L Class Tramcars (Introduced 1906-1910, converted from F class. Withdrawn 1918-1930, converted to L/P class:

Even the G class (1899-1927) Tramcars look like they could be represented:

 

The later Sydney Trams (O, P and R classes) which were the more famous and ran until the closure of the Sydney Tram System in the 1960s were of a completely different "toast-rack" style and cannot be made from the kit parts that I have outlined above.

[deeslexia]

Could keep you busy for ages, so far beyond my skills though.

[hartleymartin]

The Sydney C class might be quite an easy conversion. I've measured the Bachmann model and the leading dimensions are very similar. Keeping in mind that the Bachmann model is marketed as 1/48, (although this might be somewhat loose as they were inteded as an accessory for Christmas displays), and I am putting a 7mm scale ruler up to it (literally, a good friend gave me one as a present some years ago)

The passenger compartment is about 10" too long and about 6" narrow. The doorway is about 3" tall, the wheelbase is 1.5" short and the model is overall about 1" to 2" too tall and about 5" short (these are scale inches)

 

Basic disassembly is fairly straight-forward. The side frames are plug-in attachments which pull straight off and the 0-4-0 motor bogie is held to the floor with two screws. It should be possible to mount this model onto another motor bogie, attach the side frames to this and with only minor modifications to the body, there is a near-enough Sydney C class tram. By no means a scale model, but repainted and with a few modifications, would be quite a respectable model.

 

The only major discrepancies are the walkways on the roof (the prototype ones are shorter and simpler) and the door/window arrangement on the ends. The end door and window are the opposite way around, no doubt because of the operations on the different sides of the street. There are also numerous detail differences with the end platforms with regards to the driver's position, etc. However, these would be barely perceptible. In any case, I doubt that there are too many people still around who would remember the Sydney C class as a passenger-carrying tram! (Yes, I am aware of No. 29 and 290 at Loftus) 

 

Of course, the other major change will be the conversion to standard gauge! There are lots of narrow-gauge conversions out there, but not that many from On30/O-16.5mm to O scale standard gauge!

*EDIT*

And a bit more exploratory surgery (ie pulling the darned thing apart) reveals that I might be able to keep the original mechanism if I can make up suitable replacement wheelsets that would simply drop-in. The only other major building area would be new side-frames.

[hartleymartin]

Passed my scale ruler over the San Francisco Cable Car kit today. It would make a convincing Sydney G Class Tram, but a little under-scale, particularly in the width. I've only been going off photographs of the G class and a few known dimensions for comparison.

 

The roof moulding from the kit comes out at 23'9" long. The G class was 38'6" long. So, it would appear that I will need 2x kits to make 1x G class Tram. As they usually operated in pairs, except for lines with turning facilities at each end, I'm going to need four kits (or make up some sort of turning facility)

 

On the upside, I did find photographic evidence that the C class trams did sometimes operate in pairs as well as the (to be expected) combination of tram + trailer.

[hartleymartin]

And so it looks like the main tram projects will be:

C Class from the Bachmann Enclosed Streetcar

 

Sydney C Class Tramcars (1896-1926):

 

 

G Class from the San Francisco Cable Car Kit

[hartleymartin]

A little bit of research has brought up information that the G class trams were powered with Brill 22e type trucks (bogies.) In fact this is a passing mention in a little book I bought a few years ago which is basically a photographic collection known as "Early Trams of Sydney" ISBN 0949675059. A little more research has found that O scale models of these are available from the UK. The Peckham 6'6" trucks would be near-enough for the longer C class and the D class trams (slightly different arrangement of the leaf springs.)

 

http://www.terryrusselltrams.co.uk/motors.htm

[Ravenser]

The G class is going to be a bit of a heroic kit bash - you'd certainly need two of the San Francisco kits to extend the open sections, mounted to a new chassis . And NSW Tramcar Hanbook Vol 1 says they were permanently coupled in pairs , back to back... 

 

Best of luck!

 

I have had a San Franscisco kit sat in the cupboard for several decades , but I think I will keep it in original form... Getting my head round how I would motorise the HO whitemetal R class kit I somehow managed to pick up here will be quite hard enough ....

[hartleymartin]

In HO scale, I imagine that this would be quite a challenge! With the 33" wheels and a short wheelbases, bogies would be the most difficult. You're probably going to have to invade some of the body space with an SEM black bug fitted with the 8-spoke 9.6mm diameter wheels and have an idler axle. The other bogie would be just for power-pick up. A single-axle drive should do for a single tram, even if it is whitemetal.

[hartleymartin]

If I'm a bit flexible with scale, the San Francisco Cable Car will build up into a G class tram. I have bought four such kits all together in order to do this. I did read somewhere that G class trams did operate at times singly, but only on lines with turning facilities or balloon loops at the terminals.

 

The passenger compartment from the SFCC is almost the same size as for a G class. I will most definitely need two roofs for the length. There will be a certain amount of scratch-building with the cross-bench seats. That won't be the problem. I'm not looking forward to having to paint so many figurines! Perhaps only a few, representing an off-peak time.

 

The whole thing would be a bit under-scale so, I'm thinking of approximating it with an overall scale of 1:45. I think I would call them "O gauge trams" rather than "O scale" as they would all operate on a common gauge, but depending on the hack job, would vary in scale size.

 

I believe that it is indeed a very old kit. I've got one with a copyright for the box cover art for 1967, and I think another I've purchased is from 1959!

[Ravenser]

In HO scale, I imagine that this would be quite a challenge! With the 33" wheels and a short wheelbases, bogies would be the most difficult. You're probably going to have to invade some of the body space with an SEM black bug fitted with the 8-spoke 9.6mm diameter wheels and have an idler axle. The other bogie would be just for power-pick up. A single-axle drive should do for a single tram, even if it is whitemetal.

The kit comes supplied with a very substantial solid whitemetal floorpan. As it's a drop centre car, this left me very much scratching my head in terms of motorisation. Not that I'm complaining too much - finding a kit for a Sydney car in Britain is quite a result, after all 

[alfsboy]

Bull Ant may well make a suitable underfloor mech .They are used to repower old Sydam interurbans and trams and solve a lot of problems  like the Pacific Electric flat  cars .Wish they had been around when I had a pile of old  Sydam as an unwanted payment of a debt  dumped on me .

[hartleymartin]

At the moment I've got to deal with another question: Track and wheel standards. Terry Russel has recommended the Tram and Light Railway standards for O scale tram track which has a 30.3mm back-to-back measurement and finer flangeways than GOG Fine standard.

 

This creates a real conundrum for me, as I would like to go with a standard, but I have a pile of 24" radius Atlas 2-rail points from the 1970s which I had intended to use for the tram layout. I suppose I could modify them for the wider B2B measurement... I also have some code 100 special grooved tram rail which would be compatible with this standard. However, the BRMSB standard wheels used are no longer available and made to order for Terry Russel.

 

85 pounds is a lot of money to spend on a power bogie, and I don't want to be hacking one apart to change the wheels at a later date. There is also the possibility that I may want to run these models on a garden railway (via battery power) Ah the quandry of standards!

[hartleymartin]

A bit of fettling has revealed that 1/8" axles from slaters goods wagons can be made to fit the chassis block and the final plastic gear mounted to this axle. I only have 36" split-spoke wheels at the moment, but some 2'6" wagon wheels (7136) from slaters will fit the bill nicely.

 

However, this has also revealed that the body being 6 scale inches too narrow is going to be a problem. There is no room for the truck side-frames. To this end, I have set about widening the body. This has entailed removing the integrally-moulded end platforms. I have figured out that the least difficult way of widening the body is to cut out the doors, add the width and make the new doors wider to fit the gap.

 

That's not going to be too hard. The difficult bit will be widening the roof. I've decided to try adding 2mm of styrene either side of the clerestory.

 

So much for take one Bachmann streetcar and mount to a standard-gauge chassis...

 

However, if anyone wants to try for 3'0" to 3'6" gauge versions (could be running on 21mm, 22.22mm or 24.5mm gauge track) no body widening will be necessary.

[hartleymartin]

Cut the sides of the roof off using a hobby knife and then glued 1.5mm styrene square section into the resulting gaps. Roof is now 7'3" wide, just shy of the 7'5" of the prototype. I might make this difference up by adding 0.5mm styrene strips to the outside of the roof. the curved ends have 1.5mm styrene glued in aswell, but these will need to be filed down, filled with putty and sanded to shape. Not as painful as I thought it would be.

 

It looks like wider doors to make up the width will be the easiest option for widening the body. I looked at moving the window to the opposite side, but decided that it would take too much work to do it to a satisfactory standard. I'll live with the discrepancy.

[hartleymartin]

How to standard-gauge a Bachmann On30 Enclosed Street car power truck.

Required components:

 

1.) Power Truck from Bachmann On30 Enclosed Street Car

2.) Axles from a slater's wagon or coach wheelset.

3.) Wheels of appropriate diameter. (I just re-used the Bachmann wheels)

 

1.) Remove power truck from the body.
To do this you will have to remove the cosmetic side-frames (pull straight down, they are a friction/clip fit) then undo two screws. They are the furthermost at each end of the chassis block and are recessed. The power truck will then lift straight off.

 

2.) Disassemble the power truck.

The motor is held on with four screws and there is a plastic keeper plate held on with two screws. You will also have to remove the two intermediate gears which sit on bright/stainless steel pins. Use a nail or piece of wire to poke these out from the side.

 

3.) Enlarge Axle holes/bearings.
ave one of the slater's axles ready. You will need to take a small round needle file and a small flat need file to enlarge the axle holes. Just a few light passes with the file at a time. You do not want a small amount of play (or extremely slight "slop"). Test-fit the axle regularly. Also test-fit with the keeper plate in place. I rub some graphite from a pencil or artist's graphite stick onto these bears to act as a dry lubricant.

 

4.) Remove wheels and gears from Bachmann drive axles.

I am sure that there is a proper way of doing this with some sort of gear or wheel-puller. I used a pair of small pliers to grip the axles and my bare hands to pull the wheels off the axles.  I then used the pliers to grip the axle, perpendicular to the gears and tapped it down on the table surface to remove the gear. Crude, but it worked.

 

5.) Fit gears to Slaters axles.

To fit these gears onto the axles, a little work is required. I used a tiny round needle file. The gear is a friction fit or press-fit onto the axle. If the hole isn't big enough the gear will split when you try to fit it to the axle. If it is too big it won't grip the axle properly. In the latter case you may need to resort to super-glue to get it to grip.

 

6.) Fit wheels to Slaters axles.

Here, you may opt to purchase suitable wheels from Slaters. No 7136, 2'6" diameter. These have 8-spokes. Check your prototype as to whether or not they had disc wheels. In the case of these wheels, one could simple fill the spokes with putty. I re-used the Bachmann wheels. The holes in the Bachmann wheels are slightly too big. If you have a lathe, you could fill the axles holes and then drill new ones. I don't, so I put drops of super-glue into the holes in order to coat the surfaces and hopefully decrease the diameter of the hole. Initially, I placed these wheels onto the new axles, but found that the back-to-back was too wide (about 30.5mm.) If you are using Tram and Light Railway standards, this isn't so much of a problem. Just a couple of light passes with a file on the black wheel bushings will suffice. I am using a slight variation on GOG Fine standard for railways, since I am primarily a railway modeller. I used a file to file the bushings flat with the backs of the wheels and then used super-glue to attach them to the axles. This gives a back-to-back measurement of about 29.5mm. However, the wheels are not perfect on the axles using this method, so it varies slightly.

 

7.) Adjust pick-ups.

Take the existing pick-up wipers and bend them to touch the backs of the wheels. I also rubbed 2B graphite on the treads and backs of the wheels. This will help with pick-up and prevent oxidisation over the long term. I recommend using HB or 2B on the treads of the wheels and 6B or 9B on the backs. The harder graphite is still a little waxy and won't affect adhesion too much. The softer 6B and 9B graphite is very greasy and will help minimise friction caused by the pick up wipers.

Optional: Track-Brake

Some Tramcars had a "track brake", which was effectively a shoe made of wood which would grip the track surface or the road surface to provide emergency braking on especially steep tramway lines. I am yet to try this myself, but this can be used to disguise a set of extra pick-up wipers, which are working directly from the track surface. I would use Phospher-bronze as this is a somewhat greasy/slippery metal, but would also recommend a generous use of graphite on the surfaces. Pick-up and adhesion may be improved by adding weight to the model, but there isn't a lot of room for it, and I am uncertain about the extra strain that this may place on plastic gears.

Optional: Fitting DCC

 

The power truck will need to be modified if you wish to fit DCC, but this is no different, electrically speaking, than fitting an un-modified power truck.

[hartleymartin]

Working on a set of windows for a Sydney D Class Tram...

 

I have read David Jenkinson's "Carriage Modelling Made Easy." His method for cutting out windows in styrene sheet definite works, but I think I'm going to go cross-eyes trying it! In this day and age, I wonder if anyone could be bothered, when it is possible to do a CAD drawing and get the parts laser-cut to a much finer standard than anything hand-tools could produce...

 

1 window down... 9 to go.

[hartleymartin]

I think my problems were caused by using a worn out (ie blunt) knife blade. I replaced the blade and the new one cuts through the same thickness of styrene in 4 cuts when the old blade took 10.

 

The C class and D class trams are now roughly at the same stage. The enclosed compartment and clerestory rooves are largely finished. Now to sort out the end platforms, power trucks, chassis and platforms.

 

I'm thinking of using some 1.6mm brass sheet as the main support for the body - especially the D class, which is nearly 30 scale feet long, and is probably at risk of twisting if I don't use something more solid for the floor.

[hartleymartin]

MODIFYING ATLAS 24" POINTS

I have a few of the 24" radius Atlas 2-rail points that date from the 1970s/1980s when the original Atlas F9 and 0-6-0 diesel shunter were produced. I acquired them quite cheaply but found that they didn't agree with finescale wheels.

 

1.) Point Blades.

 

Finescale wheels often managed to split the point blades when set for the curved track. The curved blade could do with filing down to a finer point.  I also rubbed the area which the blades slide on with some graphite (I think from a 2B pencil, although 6B or 9 B would have been better). I cut the tie-bar down the middle and glued some 1.5mm square styrene section to reduce the blade throw closer to finescale standards. 1mm styrene was glued underneath to reinforce the joint. A dab of matt black paint and the change is almost invisible.

 

2.) Point frog or "V Crossing

 

Finescale wheels drop into the frog. I found that two modifications fixed this problem. The first was to glue 1.5mm square styrene into the bottom of the frog. Finescale wheels still dip slightly, but the flanges are then supported as they run through. The second modification was to glue strips of 1mm thick styrene to the wing rails to reduce the flangeways to 1.5mm. (leave the check-rails alone) This makes for smoother running as the extra bit of styrene supports the tread of the wheel for longer and reduces the gap. Again, matt black paint makes the changes less apparent.

 

3.) Check-rail at the point blades.

 

I found that there persisted the problem with wheels splitting the point blades. The worst was a whitemetal 0-4-0 barclay. This thing is so heavy that it will re-set throw peco-points when running from a trailing direction. The solution was a short check-rail leading up to the point blades in the facing direction. The flangeway is somewhere around the 1.2mm to 1.4mm width. This pulls the wheelsets over so that the flanges on the opposite wheels don't hit the very tip of the point blades and ensures that they don't split the points. I formed mine from 2mm brass angle glued to the top of a styrene block.

 

 

These Atlas points are being prepared for us on a small tramway layout inspired by the HO scale "Victoria Street" layout.

 

One other major modification was to reduce the track centres by cutting down the rail on the curved road. As it stood the centres were a scale 14'6" apart. I've managed to cut this down to 13'0", although prototypical tramways were often only 10'0" I cannot really get this dimension down much further (not without a dremmel cutting disc anyway) and I think the little bit of extra gap will allow me to use the old style centre-mounted poles. It would also allow me to run railway vehicles!

[hartleymartin]

I am left pondering what to do about the C class tram, but the D class tram is progressing. I made the floor for it and fitted it to a power truck. The floor is 1mm thick styrene sheet with 4mm x 1mm styrene trips around the edges and then various sections of styrene to reinforce it. The floor surface is about 1mm higher than scale, but nothing could be done about this, as this was determined by the height of the power truck, and I didn't particularly feel like taking a file to the cast chassis block to lower it by 1mm. The wheels are slightly under-size as it is, and I am happy to have a near-enough rather than a strict scale model. The wheelbase is 4.5mm shorter than scale, but I think once the side trams and all are in place no-one will notice. The D class trams were 28' long and ran on a 6'6" wheelbase. The C class were variously between 23' and 26' long and on a 6'0" wheelbase. It is amazing to think that long vehicles like this travelled on such short power trucks, but I suppose that it was a smoother ride than a horse-drawn wagon or stage-coach on an unpaved road!

 

My thoughts are turning towards how to get some extra weight into this model. The body is entirely styrene and weighs very little. It will need more weight if it is going to be able to pass through the sprung points that I am using (see previous posting). At the moment I think a combination of white-metal figurines on the seats and perhaps lead weights in compartments under the internal seats. This will keep most of the weight directly over the cast metal chassis block and prevent the ends from sagging (although this sagging is quite prototypical for these trams in later years!)

 

Then there's the power truck side-frames the end platforms and open seating area to finish. Not having photos of the original unenclosed motorman's (driver's) positions, I'm using a fair bit of guess-work. Murphy's law dictates that the necessary photos will come to light AFTER I've either spent hours making something or made irreversible changes to the model!

[hartleymartin]

At the moment the D class is mostly white styrene from either flat evergreen sheet (mostly 1mm thick) 1mm square strips, and the power truck and trolley pole off a Bachmann On30 Enclosed Streetcar.

 

There is a 1/45 Osaka Tram kit available on ebay at the moment which has the correct Brill 21e side-frames, but looking at the price, it's probably going to be cheaper asking Terry Russel for one of his unpowered trucks unassembled. I'm not sure that I particularly want to attempt scratch-building that part.

[hartleymartin]

Today I received some 1:35 scale tram overhead wire supports from MiniArt (item 35523, available on ebay) If the pole is cut down by 25mm it looks about right for 7mm scale tramways. Each box contains four sprues which can make a couple of different designs of pole.

 

The era I am aiming for is circa 1900-1910. The decorative poles were removed in 1908 and replaced with plan span wire poles (ie timber poles)

[hartleymartin]

The G class is going to be a bit of a heroic kit bash - you'd certainly need two of the San Francisco kits to extend the open sections, mounted to a new chassis . And NSW Tramcar Hanbook Vol 1 says they were permanently coupled in pairs , back to back... 

 

Best of luck!

 

I have had a San Franscisco kit sat in the cupboard for several decades , but I think I will keep it in original form... Getting my head round how I would motorise the HO whitemetal R class kit I somehow managed to pick up here will be quite hard enough ....

 

Looks Like I have to purchase a few more San Francisco Cable Car kits then! I used quite a few components from two such kits to build my Sydney D Class tram. I did design my own tram layout to take the G class trams.

 

Looking closer at the G class, I am keen to find better photos as I would like to know just how visible the Brill trucks were with those footboards. If they are not particularly visible, I might get away with a scratch-built approximation in plastikard. Terry Russel's tram trucks are very attractive, but the prospect of spending over 200 pounds to build the G class tram is daunting to say the least. That would buy me quite a few other things in O scale that I would want a whole lot more!

[Ravenser]

Looks Like I have to purchase a few more San Francisco Cable Car kits then! I used quite a few components from two such kits to build my Sydney D Class tram. I did design my own tram layout to take the G class trams.

 

Looking closer at the G class, I am keen to find better photos as I would like to know just how visible the Brill trucks were with those footboards. If they are not particularly visible, I might get away with a scratch-built approximation in plastikard. Terry Russel's tram trucks are very attractive, but the prospect of spending over 200 pounds to build the G class tram is daunting to say the least. That would buy me quite a few other things in O scale that I would want a whole lot more!

 

 

Any chance of a photo of the D class tram? It sounds an interesting job

 

Whereabouts are you setting the layout? (presumably somewhere on the Main Sydney system, as N Sydney never saw G class cars , and I'm not sure Manly or Enfield ever saw Cs and Ds) 

 

It would presumably be a total scratchbuild job , but both E class coupled sets and J class single cars would be in period, and with closed bodies,  weight and mechanisms could be concealed (just assume it's been raining and the passengers have closed the doors...) . A drawing for the J class could probably be derived by taking the drawing for the K class and duplicating the closed section to replace the open section .The Sydney drawings in Terry Russell's list are clearly redrawn from the ones in the little tram class booklets that the tramway museum at Loftus used to sell and possibly still do - there was a booklet covering the K class so a drawing exists

 

(K class cars are pretty high up my list of "things I don't want to scratchbuild in 4mm/HO". If I ever get round to building my R class kit, and a little layout based on Wynard for it to run on - nice compact boxed diorama - I'd need more cars and I reckon a coupled E class set might just be possible. Scratchbuilding a pair of Os is not... )     

[hartleymartin]

At this stage, a totally freelanced diorama is the plan.

[298]

Gunze Sangyo did a series of four plastic 1/45 scale Japanese 4 wheel trams that might be suitable, they have been out of production for a long time, but might be available secondhand from the usual auction sites.