RMweb Gold colin penfold Posted September 1, 2013 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted September 1, 2013 Interesting to watch the readings on the owl today, the surfaces are drying out nicely with the help of the dehumidifier. It switched off this morning due to the water container being full, so I left it off for a bit and the reading was slowly but surely drifting back upwards. I am assuming this is because there is still a lot of damp to come out of walls and floor before we reach a level that's sustainable without the DH. He's back on now doing his thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold colin penfold Posted September 4, 2013 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted September 4, 2013 The dehumidifier is removing about 7 litres of water every 24 hours at the moment. The humidity reading today when I went to empty the tank was 46% at 22degrees celcius. The extractors arrived today so I will be fitting them at the weekend to hopefully improve the ventilation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold colin penfold Posted September 10, 2013 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted September 10, 2013 Coming on nicely! 42% today at 21.5c. Better still, the stone floor is visibly drying. Had heavy rain the last 2 days and no visible ingress. With the extractors running the air is much nicer to breathe. Hopefully the plumber is coming soon to install the radiator. Getting excited now, may have to start the layout planning thread soon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold colin penfold Posted September 16, 2013 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted September 16, 2013 Colin, you'll have to be wary of removing the moisture from the surrounding footings through the cellar brickwork, and therefore bring about some movement in the walls. What is your surrounding earthwork like? Is the cellar the same area as the house above? Steve steve this is spooky as I was considering that very question. The cellar is the same footprint as my kitcen and is properly underground on all 4 sides. I'm thinking I might leave the DH off for a few days but keep the extractor fans running and see what level the humidity settles at. I would hate to cause myself problems by over drying it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom J Posted September 16, 2013 Share Posted September 16, 2013 Colin, I am engaged in a similar task at the moment, on a Grade II listed house of 1830s build. I got to the basement just in time for our house. Previous owners had laid a double layer of DPC sheet, onto which they had poured a very badly mixed concrete floor of about 3-4" depth. They had then run the DPC up the walls, battening these out and covering them with plasterboard, and had done the same over the top of the lath and plaster ceilings. The basement looked very nice superficially, but these interventions caused the breathing of the house to be totally stifled, and the moisture which was no longer being evaporated started to soak the walls from the bottom up, as the moisture from under the floor rose by capillary action. By the time I got to the house, this was causing damp in the upper ground floor walls, but more to the point had started to rot some of the joists and their bearers. Having ripped out all the dry lining, cleaned up the brickwork, installed passive vents and replaced some of the floor above, I am now engaged in the back-breaking task of lifting the floor. Pouring it in is one thing, bringing it out up a steep staircase in rubble bags is quite another! I am shifting about two cubic yards a week at the moment, which is not bad for a househusband looking after a 7 month old baby, I reckon! On the up side, we are uncovering what appears to be a complete, original, quarry-tiled floor. We have no idea just how dry the LGF will become, but are reliably informed that the drying out we are already seeing may take years rather than months to run its' course. We will make a call on what standard we aim to achieve down there much later in the restoration... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Nth Degree Posted September 16, 2013 Share Posted September 16, 2013 Thanks for pointing me to this thread, just read through it. Looks like you have quite a job on your hands as there'll be quite a lot of cumulative water down there, and quite a bit of it will be in the form of salts packed into the old plaster. Just looking from the pic you've posted your property looks to be 16th/17thC so there'll be no cavity in the brickwork, which is a shame. Are there buildings with cellars either side of you? That would be ideal as their cellars would act as a cavity barrier, you'll then just have to worry about the front and back walls and the floor. Do you know what you local water table is like? It's probably a good idea to switch off the DH for a while and see how things go – 60% humidity is about the max you should aim for but it may take a week or so to balance out. A cheaper method of dehumidifying is to use salt (road salt is perfectly fine and will be more absorbing than the mineral salt in the plaster so will draw it out, and it's cheap if you buy it in 10Kg+ bags), cat litter (clay-based) or charcoal – but not the barbecue stuff as that's impregnated with chemicals. I can tell you from experience that this process can take several months to neutralise, sometimes longer. I've know people to give up after a couple years and resort to bitumen lining with a sump pump. I hope you get this sorted sooner though as I'd like to know what you're going to do with the layout! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold colin penfold Posted September 16, 2013 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted September 16, 2013 The layout planning will go on regardless I have started the process of reinhabiting the cellar in parallel to creating a new utility room and study in what used to be the kitchen above. I have a few months work at my rate of progress before my weekends are free for layout building anyway. As it is, the humidity was 80% when I broke through and the damp smelt awful. I think the nature of the surrounding earth is not too bad and the cellar is historically dry. We have had some heavy rain in Norfolk since I have been going down there daily and there has been no actual water ingress. The extra bit beyond the dividing wall is the bit nearest the surface and that will only contain non-scenic loops. I have just been down there and after the DH has been off for nearly 24 hours we are at 46% humidity at 21%. The smell's not bad at all and the surfaces (walls and floor) are now pretty dry. Tom, I too had some luck with the floor in the cellar, its some lovely old flagstones which apart from two holes is intact, as are the stone shelves in the smaller area which I believe were used for storage of flour when the property was a shop (hence my optimism that the cellar wants to be dry, it just needs me to be kind to it after 13 years of being unsympathetically sealed up. As an aside the people we bought the house from, who sealed it up, were so disinterested in the cellar they didn't even tell us of its existence. It was our surveyor who told me it was there, in the same breath as saying it shouldn't be sealed. I immediately took up the quarry tiling that had been concreted over the "hole" and replaced it with a timber false floor that could be lifted periodically to check down there, and breathed a bit more than the concrete. It's been longer than I hoped to finally open it up properly, but it has meant some fundamental and expensive changes to the ground floor layout of the house. I really appreciate the helpful comments people have given me, and it's interesting that there seems to be quite a little band of us in the cellar brigade! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold colin penfold Posted September 18, 2013 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted September 18, 2013 Three days of the DH being left off, the humidity has gradually risen to 55% at 19' Waiting to see where it goes from here, resisting the temptation to put the DH back on. plumber coming tomorrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold colin penfold Posted October 12, 2013 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 12, 2013 Plumber has fitted the radiator but problems with the system are preventing it from heating up. Hopefully getting sorted Tuesday. Meanwhile I tried leaving the DH off for a few days but the humidity rose beyond 60%. I have now got it running for 2-3 hours a day and thats maintaining the levels in mid 50s. I think the bulk of the dampness is from the floor as the wall plaster is still pretty hard and the floor is not fully drying. That gives me hope that I can use it for the layout by keeping things off the floor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N15class Posted October 12, 2013 Share Posted October 12, 2013 If the celler is damp. the best thing to do is render the walls and floor. and cover with a product called Vandex. this is used for tanking water tanks etc. then re render and finish the floor. You can then insulate and board over this is you need to. But ground is a great insulator. This will stop the humidity. Then add a circulating fan I would of thought you would need at least an eight inch diameter hole. You unfortunatly cant drill holes for hanging things, unless you go through an awkward process of sealing them. But then again the layout can be free standing as can any furnature. It will have initial costs but be far cheaper than keep pumping electricy or heating at it. We had a basement to or garage with only a little heater and the door for ventilation, this was in a room six metres square. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold colin penfold Posted October 12, 2013 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 12, 2013 A small victory was had tonight in colin vs cellar steps. Two weeks ago with club hammer and cold chisel up front we were unable to break through and a late strike on my left hand left me defeated. However, I signed mr angel grindar from the spanish side FC amazon and we won the second leg 4-1 The steps are now back how they should be and all the brickwork my predecessor put in to raise the floor is gone. Very satisfied. About to enjoy dinner and a beer followed by writing the next instalment of the layout planning thread whilst lovely wife watches the dreaded x factor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bezzy Oppo Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 I noticed in your layout thread you have a dividing wall? It's not that big a job to have a steel spec'd and 'inserted'. OK so a couple of wall pillar supports and padstones will be needed but think of the space! Honestly as you're going to all this trouble it's not much further to open the space right up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold colin penfold Posted October 20, 2013 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 20, 2013 I noticed in your layout thread you have a dividing wall? It's not that big a job to have a steel spec'd and 'inserted'. OK so a couple of wall pillar supports and padstones will be needed but think of the space! Honestly as you're going to all this trouble it's not much further to open the space right up. thanks for the thoughts, and in a way you are right. However I have decided to leave the wall in place and tunnel through it. My reasons for this are not incurring the wrath of my conservation officer, and the fact that the end of the room beyond the wall is a slightly less pleasant environment. The wall in effect insulates me and the smaller area between will be non scenic return loops. I don't feel particularly restricted by the wall where it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold colin penfold Posted November 3, 2013 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted November 3, 2013 settling down nicely in there The dehumidifier is off now, radiator working and I have restricted the extractor fans to run a couple of hours a day pending having them wired in permanently when they will run a) if the lights are on and b) if humidity reaches 60% Humidity is generally between 50 - 60% and temp about 20c, no nasty smells it's becoming a decent environment. The layout feels nearer and nearer , it's really spurring me on to do the DIY at ground floor level to complete the revised layout which includes permanent access to the cellar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N15class Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 settling down nicely in there The dehumidifier is off now, radiator working and I have restricted the extractor fans to run a couple of hours a day pending having them wired in permanently when they will run a) if the lights are on and B) if humidity reaches 60% Humidity is generally between 50 - 60% and temp about 20c, no nasty smells it's becoming a decent environment. The layout feels nearer and nearer , it's really spurring me on to do the DIY at ground floor level to complete the revised layout which includes permanent access to the cellar Your humidiy is still high. You will need to leave any material you want to use in there for at least a fortnight to get used to the dampness. Timber and sheets are are dried to a much lower moister reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold colin penfold Posted November 25, 2013 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted November 25, 2013 The cellar is settling down nicely now and stable at about 20c and 45% humidity. Feeling confident that I can start modelling down there as soon as the ground floor works are done (by Christmas I hope) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold colin penfold Posted September 8, 2014 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted September 8, 2014 Having repaired the floor in the cellar, the walls and ceiling have been given a coat of paint by my lovely wife. I have now installed the units from the old kitchen to provide under-baseboard storage. I bought an off-cut of carpet from a local store for £20 and am now ready to occupy the space properly. Happy that the humidity is manageable using fans and the dehumidifier, and with the carpet down it's starting to feel like a real room. Still need to organise an electrician to connect a supply to the consumer unit but happy to work off extension leads for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted June 20, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 20, 2015 How's it looking now mate? I won't mention it at Luffboro! P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold colin penfold Posted June 20, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted June 20, 2015 its looking a bit messy just now because I've abandoned baseboard construction due to the broken arm. It is pretty comfortable to use though, I have carpets and extractor fans, still use the dehumidifier a bit but achieve acceptable humidity levels. Easier in the winter because the central heating is on. A couple of pics over on the layout planning thread if you are interested http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/76149-layout-design-case-study/page-10&do=findComment&comment=1847486 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Sidelines Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 Hi Colin sorry to hear about the arm. Full of admiration for your project. Parts of our house is on the first edition OS map and we have an ongoing issue where the old lime mortar wall joins up with a modern cavity wall. The planners demanded that we kept the old wall to qualify as a renovation but you do wonder at their logic. With my geotechnical engineer's hat on do you know where the water table is relative to your cellar floor? If the water is above the floor level you might need to consider some external drainage / ground water lowering. What happens to rain water? Are there plenty of working gulleys and perhaps there is a concrete apron around the building to reduce local ingress and channel water away from the cellar? There are lot of patented boards with bentonite clay sandwiches which can be used to reduce moisture ingress. Good luck Regards Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold colin penfold Posted June 20, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted June 20, 2015 The water table is well clear, in the old days the cellar was used for storage and bagging of flour for the shop. We are grade 2 listed and our conservation officer was adamant we should not go for tanking. Any slight problem with damp seems to be through the flagstone floor but as I say, it's manageable through heating and ventilation along with moderate use of a dehumidifier. As I said earlier, it's a reasonably comfortable room - certainly better than any shed, garage or loft and I feel very lucky to have the space to play in. Thanks for asking and taking an interest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold colin penfold Posted June 20, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted June 20, 2015 Chers Ray, I should maybe also have said there's a well at the rear of the property which I think performs a drainage function. They knew a bit more than we credit them with 400 years ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Sidelines Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 Thanks Colin, 400 years is a long time for conditions to remain 'constant'. It was predicted in New Scientist in the 1990s that the sky would be come gradually more cloudy and that rainfall would increase for I think temperate zones like ours. Certainly the local area here received the highest rainfall in December since records began - about 150 years ago. Some of that rainfall will be adding to the ground water. But as you say - you have a well. As long as it doesn't turn into a spring. Regards Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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