4 SUB Unit 4377, Bulleid 2 HAP upgrade - plus all matters third rail.

[Tigermoth]

Yes, I didn't mean any criticism of your opinion Tigermoth. That car makes me green with envy though!

 

Verdantly yours,

 

Colin

I know, me too.  Another thing that needs mentioning is a lot dépends on the colour of the undercoat, which will show through, this will effect the final shade. There is also the fact that photos and slides change over time and again when scaling down the colour this has to change slightly to be right, all these things make finding exactly the right shade difficult. I must have looked at that photo at least twenty times and to me it does feel right, a very difficult subject to resolve.

Edited October 12, 2013 by Tigermoth

[Colin parks]

Today I have been mostly doing handles. More accurately, I should say doing them again, as the first handles on the MU fittings were made of bent wire and looked like - bent wire!

 

This is the second attempt and more like they should be:

 

Firstly a 6mm length of 0.3mm rod has a 1mm triangle of 10 thou. fixed with solvent 1mm from one end:

 

 

Then, when the joint has hardened and using a ruler as an improvised clamp, the parts are cut at angle of c. 10 degrees forming a point at the top:

 

 

Then using tweezers, the rod is bent into a 'U' shape:

 

 

Holding the little beastie with the ruler, the other end of the rod is cut at the same angle as before:

 

 

The next bit is really fun. While holding the lower part of the handle with the ruler, bring the two ends together with the tweezers. The first six handles were then joined with solvent, which was not a quick enough bond - I have a low boredom threshold. The second set were done with a tiny dab of super glue applied with the point of a pin (just possible without three hands.):

 

 

On the first set of handles, the pivot head, made of 0.4mm rod, was put on now. For the other eleven handles, it proved easier to add this part once they were in place on the MU sockets:

 

 

Then, using a solvent dampened brush, the handle was picked up and applied at a jaunty angle to the socket. These handles were seemingly always in random positions, so a bit of creativity is possible here:

 

 

 

 

The set of handles fitted to the cab front. These are the super glued top joint version and will need less tidying up than the solvent jointed ones which became a little ragged with handling:

 

 

Off to darkened room for a lie down......

 

Colin

Edited October 12, 2013 by Colin parks

[HAB]

Hi Howard,

 

Thanks for the confirmation and otherwise of the shape of the MU sockets. I shall have another go at the far r/h dummy receptacles - they looked wrong as soon as I put them on! There are four tiny plugs which are not shown fitted into the sockets, which does alter the appearance of even the correctly shaped parts. These plugs will go on the MU cables to the left and right. I have some very thin black elastic which could prove a better choice of material than my usual 0.5mm plastic rod.

 

The image in the link is interesting: the units have different forms of conduit on the l/h side running down to the solebar - one is straight the other is cranked. Luckily there is a good photo to be seen of the front of a motor coach from 4377 and it had the conduit running straight down like the unit on the left in your linked image. Confusingly, this photo of 4377 can be found in David Brown's Southern Electric Vol. II (sic) p.97, taken at the time that the motor coaches were running with 4 LAV 2932.

 

All the best,

 

Colin

 

Wow! Separate plugs - It just keeps getting better!  I like the idea of elastic for the jumper cables - will be interested to see if this helps them look "natural".

 

Re the different conduits,  I wonder if this because 4286 (left) is one of those fitted with front steps and eyebrow handrails?

 

Best wishes,

[Colin parks]

Wow! Separate plugs - It just keeps getting better!  I like the idea of elastic for the jumper cables - will be interested to see if this helps them look "natural".

 

Re the different conduits,  I wonder if this because 4286 (left) is one of those fitted with front steps and eyebrow handrails?

 

Best wishes,

Yeah, and the MU cables will transmit power too Howard (only joking!) I do like the idea of using real rubber for them though. (Please no 'rubber' jokes!)

 

I don't think your theory re. that conduit can be the case, as 4377 had a step and grab handles on that side of the cab too. There must be a reason and somebody might tell us one day - dasatcopthorne maybe?!

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[HAB]

Off to darkened room for a lie down......

 

 

 

You are entitled to a lie down!  Fantastic post - even by your your own high standards - many thanks indeed.

 

Best wishes,

[Ceptic]

 

Now, that, to me, looks too dark.

 

Also, there are so / too many variables involving a personal interpretation of colours. For example...

 

Individual eyesight capabilities. (Including gender)

 

Memories of,.. when an example no longer exists.

 

Prototype finish....Main line stock would be subject to a regular / intermediate exterior washing. Ex-works would be pristine, hence, gloss.

    Suburban stock didn't undergo such treatment quite so regularly, although units still exhibited some resemblance of the original gloss underneath the road dirt.

 

The method of painting the prototype...i.e. Undercoat variations / Topcoat re-varnishing.

 

Model paint / RTR paint finish.. The default finish is usually matt or semi-matt, from what I've seen in 'OO'. Larger scale models appear with a gloss finish.

  Maybe us 'OO' modellers need something in between ?, Or would a coat of gloss varnish do the trick ?

 

Photographic reproduction...Have a look through this collection http://www.flickr.com/photos/david_christie/6031212081/in/set-72157625418636168 

     In between the loco pics, almost all depict the snippets of carriage stock to be painted in some sort of Maunsell SR Olive. That's not what I remember.  

 

Lately, one photographic book stands out as an attempt to record the distinctly unique Greens of the SR & BR(S). This being Michael Welch's 'Southern Coaches in Colour', ISBN 978-1-906419-45-5

 

All the best,

 

Frank.

[HAB]

 

Lately, one photographic book stands out as an attempt to record the distinctly unique Greens of the SR & BR(S). This being Michael Welch's 'Southern Coaches in Colour', ISBN 978-1-906419-45-5

 

 

 

...and the same author's "A Southern Electric Album" - ISBN 1 85414 279 4  which includes some excellent shots.  He also has produced "Slam doors on the Southern", much of which is a bit post modernist, but is worth buying just for the shot on pages 30/31!

 

Debating colours in prose can be a bit tiresome,  but just to add one point which I don't think has come up so far.  Various sources refer to at least four different greens in use at various times and say that they were all different from each other:-

 

- BR Loco Green

- "Early" EMU Green

- "Late" EMU Green

(neither of these had anything to do with DMU green as has been stated)

- Loco Hauled Coaching stock green.

 

- the key being that I am sure I have a statement to the effect that EMUs were painted differently from loco hauled stock. (not least because LHCS never visited Selhurst / Slade Green / Peckham Rye.)

 

Now here is my query - it is stated e.g in Brown's "Southern Electric" that:-   " .. the early EMU green was lighter than the later shade and most units with pre-group body work went for scrap without carrying the later shade" yet, in the above book there are a number of pictures - ie on pages 29 and 30 of ancient SUBs in the early scheme but the green is very dark - even on a newly painted unit (page 29).

The one conclusion that can be drawn from looking through "A Souther Electric Album" (in which the colour reproduction is as good as it con be) is that there are as many different greens as there are pictures!

 

Just to pitch the cat at the pigeons, (if only to wind Colin up when he gets back from his lie down) it is clear that the green weathered much better that the blue - I remember the CORs / BILs and (even) HALs looking smart when they were first repainted but very soon after they were uniformly grey, matt and drab (see page 56).  Though maintenance was needed for any paint job (see page 73!)

 

(apologies to those who do not have the book, though following what is going on in this thread might be easier with it!) 

 

 

Still, all academic in Colin's case - he is depicting the thing so late in life that it was carrying brake block dust brown by then! 

 

Best wishes,

[crompton 33]

Going off topic sort of. When i worked for maidstone & district bus co.  They used 2 or 3 different paint makers one was Parsons carn't remember the rest but the shade of green was not the same . Now did BR use different paint makers as well . If so this might explain the problem with southern green.

Edited October 12, 2013 by crompton 33

[Colin parks]

Now, that, to me, looks too dark.

 

Also, there are so / too many variables involving a personal interpretation of colours. For example...

 

Individual eyesight capabilities. (Including gender)

 

Memories of,.. when an example no longer exists.

 

Prototype finish....Main line stock would be subject to a regular / intermediate exterior washing. Ex-works would be pristine, hence, gloss.

    Suburban stock didn't undergo such treatment quite so regularly, although units still exhibited some resemblance of the original gloss underneath the road dirt.

 

The method of painting the prototype...i.e. Undercoat variations / Topcoat re-varnishing.

 

Model paint / RTR paint finish.. The default finish is usually matt or semi-matt, from what I've seen in 'OO'. Larger scale models appear with a gloss finish.

  Maybe us 'OO' modellers need something in between ?, Or would a coat of gloss varnish do the trick ?

 

Photographic reproduction...Have a look through this collection http://www.flickr.com/photos/david_christie/6031212081/in/set-72157625418636168

     In between the loco pics, almost all depict the snippets of carriage stock to be painted in some sort of Maunsell SR Olive. That's not what I remember.  

 

Lately, one photographic book stands out as an attempt to record the distinctly unique Greens of the SR & BR(S). This being Michael Welch's 'Southern Coaches in Colour', ISBN 978-1-906419-45-5

 

All the best,

 

Frank.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/22281745@N05/6390121701/in/photolist-aJF3y6-dQ42h5-fhpHJ2-9gWo4F-dTurMS-9apVs5-9eTG9e-9dw4E4-9arK23-aomDiL-bUGojC-aiC8fV-efcTeS-92UwLu-9dAzMa-92aDSn-8JAWzS-9nWuyB-9eXy7J-cjanes-eoaXib-fhpHKZ-9tNAGE

 

 

Hi Frank,

 

Yep, it's a grand collection of variables this 'shade of green' business. Just look at the example above.

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[Colin parks]

...and the same author's "A Southern Electric Album" - ISBN 1 85414 279 4  which includes some excellent shots.  He also has produced "Slam doors on the Southern", much of which is a bit post modernist, but is worth buying just for the shot on pages 30/31!

 

Debating colours in prose can be a bit tiresome,  but just to add one point which I don't think has come up so far.  Various sources refer to at least four different greens in use at various times and say that they were all different from each other:-

 

- BR Loco Green

- "Early" EMU Green

- "Late" EMU Green

(neither of these had anything to do with DMU green as has been stated)

- Loco Hauled Coaching stock green.

 

- the key being that I am sure I have a statement to the effect that EMUs were painted differently from loco hauled stock. (not least because LHCS never visited Selhurst / Slade Green / Peckham Rye.)

 

Now here is my query - it is stated e.g in Brown's "Southern Electric" that:-   " .. the early EMU green was lighter than the later shade and most units with pre-group body work went for scrap without carrying the later shade" yet, in the above book there are a number of pictures - ie on pages 29 and 30 of ancient SUBs in the early scheme but the green is very dark - even on a newly painted unit (page 29).

The one conclusion that can be drawn from looking through "A Souther Electric Album" (in which the colour reproduction is as good as it con be) is that there are as many different greens as there are pictures!

 

Just to pitch the cat at the pigeons, (if only to wind Colin up when he gets back from his lie down) it is clear that the green weathered much better that the blue - I remember the CORs / BILs and (even) HALs looking smart when they were first repainted but very soon after they were uniformly grey, matt and drab (see page 56).  Though maintenance was needed for any paint job (see page 73!)

 

(apologies to those who do not have the book, though following what is going on in this thread might be easier with it!) 

 

 

Still, all academic in Colin's case - he is depicting the thing so late in life that it was carrying brake block dust brown by then! 

 

Best wishes,

Hi Howard,

 

I do have that book, so I do know what you mean about colour variation. Here is another green unit looking decidedly grimy.

 

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/22281745@N05/5408054341/in/photolist-9eTG9e-9dw4E4-9arK23-aomDiL-bUGojC-aiC8fV-efcTeS-92UwLu-9dAzMa-92aDSn-8JAWzS-9nWuyB-9eXy7J-cjanes-eoaXib-fhpHKZ-9tNAGE

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[Colin parks]

Going off topic sort of. When i worked for maidstone & district bus co.  They used 2 or 3 different paint makers one was Parsons carn't remember the rest but the shade of green was not the same . Now did BR use different paint makers as well . If so this might explain the problem with southern green.

Quite true I am sure crompton 33. There were even cases of the wrong shade being applied to some units due to misunderstandings down the tiers of mangement- although I am not sure which units were involved. (Will have to read up on this.)

 

All the best,

 

Colin

Edited October 12, 2013 by Colin parks

[Tigermoth]

Now, that, to me, looks too dark.

 

Also, there are so / too many variables involving a personal interpretation of colours. For example...

 

Individual eyesight capabilities. (Including gender)

 

Memories of,.. when an example no longer exists.

 

Prototype finish....Main line stock would be subject to a regular / intermediate exterior washing. Ex-works would be pristine, hence, gloss.

    Suburban stock didn't undergo such treatment quite so regularly, although units still exhibited some resemblance of the original gloss underneath the road dirt.

 

The method of painting the prototype...i.e. Undercoat variations / Topcoat re-varnishing.

 

Model paint / RTR paint finish.. The default finish is usually matt or semi-matt, from what I've seen in 'OO'. Larger scale models appear with a gloss finish.

  Maybe us 'OO' modellers need something in between ?, Or would a coat of gloss varnish do the trick ?

 

Photographic reproduction...Have a look through this collection http://www.flickr.com/photos/david_christie/6031212081/in/set-72157625418636168

     In between the loco pics, almost all depict the snippets of carriage stock to be painted in some sort of Maunsell SR Olive. That's not what I remember.  

 

Lately, one photographic book stands out as an attempt to record the distinctly unique Greens of the SR & BR(S). This being Michael Welch's 'Southern Coaches in Colour', ISBN 978-1-906419-45-5

 

All the best,

 

Frank.

You're right about the photo collection this is not the green i remember either of the Maunsell stock. but you can put that down to type of film and time.

Edited October 13, 2013 by Tigermoth

[the penguin of doom]

Hi Colin.

 

I'm really liking your scratch build cab fronts, they're really inspiring. I've almost been given the confidence to have a go at scratch building my Trans - Pennine cabs.....

 

Hmmmn, maybe not.

 

Keep up the good work, this is the first time I've followed one of your builds from its inception and I'm just wondering how I haven't found your work sooner.

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

[Colin parks]

Hi Colin.

 

I'm really liking your scratch build cab fronts, they're really inspiring. I've almost been given the confidence to have a go at scratch building my Trans - Pennine cabs.....

 

Hmmmn, maybe not.

 

Keep up the good work, this is the first time I've followed one of your builds from its inception and I'm just wondering how I haven't found your work sooner.

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

 

Thanks Sean.

 

You will need a lot of patience to follow one of my topics as they are done in real time i.e. very slowly!

 

Scratch-building the Trans Pennine unit's cab fronts would present far more of a challenge than those of the 4 SUB, which is essentially two dimensional, apart from the odd lumps and bumps here and there.

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[Colin parks]

The end is nigh!

 

Well the inner ends are nigh anyway.

 

Faced with six corrugated inner ends to make, I hit on the idea of mass production of sorts by applying 0.8mm x 10 thou. strips to a piece of 20 thou. plastic cut over-width and long enough to make seven inner ends. The spare one will serve as a pattern for future reference.

 

The plans show the outer corrugations pitched from centre to be in line with the train alarm covers. Photos show otherwise and I have pitched the corrugations at 4mm centres which brings them into position in relation the outer edges of the ends, inboard of the train alarm covers

 

 

Using a template held tightly against the sheet, the profile of the inner end is marked with the newly bladed knife: a blunt edged blade would cause the knife to wander. (The eagle-eyed might notice the template is marked '2 HAP' and this dates back to when I made the first scratch-built unit.) The 4 SUB profile is common to the TIN HALs, Bulleid 4 EPBs, 2 HAPs and finally the 2EPBs. They were all made on the same jigs at Eastleigh over a period of ten years.

 

 

Three light cuts around the template will leave enough of a cut for the knife to follow around free hand. Gently does it!

 

 

With successive light cuts, the end will part from the stock material. I must confess extra care is needed when going over the corrugations to avoid the knife blade jumping.

 

 

These ends can now be fettled and the corrugations shaped and sanded. They do not extend right to the top edges of the inner ends, but it will be a small matter to trim them back. The inner ends will not be completely sanded back smooth to the coach sides and roof when fitted as there was an 'L' section reinforcing strip all around the outer edges. This will be more tricky to get right than a smooth finish, but it is another subtle feature of these units which I think is worth including.

 

Colin

Edited October 13, 2013 by Colin parks

[the penguin of doom]

Well Colin, if you feel the TP cabs would be a challange, I'll definately be sticking to plan A then! ;o)

[10800]

Colin, this cab-front detail is getting so good you are surpassing Geoff Kent IMO in your working with plastic card.

[Colin parks]

Well Colin, if you feel the TP cabs would be a challange, I'll definately be sticking to plan A then! ;o)

Hi Sean,

 

I'm sure those TP cabs could be done, but probably making one then using that as a resin master would be best. james Makin has done that for his Electrostar class 377 to good effect. Having said that, for the TP front, the best way of going about it might be to have the roof dome as part of the roof and the cab front attached to the sides, with a join at cantrail level.

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[Colin parks]

Colin, this cab-front detail is getting so good you are surpassing Geoff Kent IMO in your working with plastic card.

That is very kind of you to say that Rod. However, the only person I am trying to surpass is myself!

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[Colin parks]

Last picture for today.

 

This is one of the inner ends with the representation of capping 'L' section around the edge. Life might have been easier if I had fished out some 15 thou. sheet for the strips as they are a touch wide - careful sanding will reduce them though. Also, the strip should only be barely visible, so when the solvent has vented off they will be carefully sanded almost flush with the surface of the end.

 

 

Colin

[Colin parks]

Most work this week has been on fitting roof to ends and making fitting for the inner ends.

 

Here, a cab front is being trial-fitted to its end of a roof. There was a lot of head-scratching about the length of the motor coach sides, which do not extend right to the solebar at the cab end. I have opted for the body to be 1mm shorter than the chassis, which seems about right and gives the right sort of overhang of the cab front. This calculation had to be made before the roofs could be cut to length.

 

 

There have been some exciting developments on the window-cutting front. All sides have been marked out for windows and I now have a secret weapon! More of that another time hopefully.

 

Colin

[Miss Prism]

Sounds like Colin's made a punch...

[Colin parks]

Sounds like Colin's made a punch...

No Miss Prism,

 

It is not a punch and I haven't made anything!!

 

Colin

[Colin parks]

Well, here is the 'secret weapon'. It has been developed entirely by Howard (HAB) and shown is one of a set of etched nickel silver scribing jigs. Howard has made one set exact size and another 0.1mm over-width to allow for either cutting the windows or scribing with a needle point.

 

 

Shown here is a test-piece. On the right is my first attempt using a knife, which was not easy due to all the curves. The left hand set of windows has been scribed with a needle holding the jig in place with finger pressure, then cut through with a knife. The blade follows the scribed lines without the need of the jig as a guide. Both sets of windows are as-cut and uncorrected.

 

 

There are two more jigs in the set, one to scribe in the drop light, inner frame of the top light and a third to mark out the door opening. Howard has done a superb job of the design and now it just (!) a case of cutting out the 4 SUB coach sides.

 

(With acknowledgement to Ceptic for his excellent dimensioned photo see post #60 here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/62883-tin-hal/page-3

 

Colin

[Kelly]

Nice work with the jigs, I wonder if they'd be usable made up for the 4DD's unique window arrangement... hmm