4 SUB Unit 4377, Bulleid 2 HAP upgrade - plus all matters third rail.

[Colin parks]

Whilst psyching myself up to get started on assembling the floors to solebars, I have finished rectifying and detailing the unpowered motor bogie. This particular example has come off the Hornby 2 BIL completed last month. I don't think I posted much of a picture of the work done on the motor bogie then. This is the more common 'Central' type 8' 9" w.b. with straight guard irons. There is a patch of superglue where the NEM socket used to be on the transom. That will be smoothed down tomorrow.

 

This time, I have added bolt heads to the guard irons, filed the axle boxes flat and replaced the axlebox covers with hopefully the correct pattern. (The Hornby motor bogies are moulded with sloping-front axle boxes of the kind found only on non-powered bogies.) The shoe beams are thinned of course and in the light of experience on the 2 BIL, the collector shoes have been cut off and set behind the shoe beams where they belong. The beams themselves have had the top part of the bracket (below the axle box) reduced by 0.75mm and the locating lugs removed as they prevented re-fitting the beams at the correct level.

 

 

 

The Hornby wheels have had their flanges turned down and the axles sit in pin-point bearings. I made a very simple but effective drilling tool which fits between the axleboxes and drills out the moulded holes to the depth necessary for fitting shoulderless bearings.

 

Colin

[Colin parks]

Gents,

 

Some while ago we discussed the Bullied Profile and Dave dasatcopthorne suggested the Model Railway Constructor drawings. Well, a brief rummage turned up my copy of the MRC for January 1967 which contains the end profiles.

 

[Colin:- when you find yours, you will find a very interesting series of articles starting on page 6]  

 

The drawing is for the loco hauled vehicles, but includes a note that it was "compatible with the EMU vehicles produced a year earlier".

 

Unfortunately, it not fully dimensioned (as it is taken from the Diagram, which gives the finished dimensions but not how to construct them) but I have had a go at creating what I think would be correct for 4mm.  Here is the outcome (apologies for the ropey dimensioning - I don't normally use my CAD prog for such things...)

 

Bulleid profile-1.jpg

 

I have left the dimensions to 2 places of decimals - well done if you can build to 1/100th of a mil!

 

I would welcome comments, should any one have any better info, before I commit the outcome to hardware...

 

 

Edit:- just to mention that this gives a max. width over body of a scale 9', which is 9' 3" over handles - I trust that sounds correct!!!

 

Best wishes,

Thanks for posting the diagram Howard.

 

I missed your post yesterday. The Bulleid geometry seems a lot less complicated than the SR roof profile that was used before. See here in dasatcopthorne's post #18 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/39263-2-hal/

 

 

All the best,

 

Colin

Edited September 8, 2013 by Colin parks

[HAB]

. The Bulleid geometry seems a lot less complicated than the SR roof profile that was used before. See here in dasatcopthorne's post #18 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/39263-2-hal/

 

... and indeed, all the other "semi-eliptical" profiles which had been about previously. It must have made for very cheap construction with Pressed-Steel Fisher being able to bang panels out by the thousand using quite cheap tooling. I assume that is also why it was selected as the basis for the BR Mk I profile.  The expensive bit was the curved glass - which BR quickly ditched!

 

Best wishes,

[dasatcopthorne]

SR Hornby bogies cheap at Abbiegails Spares.

 

Hurry.

 

Dave

[Colin parks]

SR Hornby bogies cheap at Abbiegails Spares.

 

Hurry.

 

Dave

Hi Dave,

 

Thanks for the information. They must have sold out as there are no Hornby X9723 bogies listed any more. Drat! I paid £3.99 each for the ones I bought for the 4 SUB.

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[HAB]

Yep, think we all went, but Dave got there first!

 

Cheers,

[Colin parks]

While work continues on the basics of the four chassis, the Black Beetle motor bogie (which was reclaimed from the Kirk 2 BIL given to Oldlugger) has been fitted with a Hornby 2 BIL (X6582) powered motor bogie moulded unit.

 

 

The BB had already had its moulded-on mounting brackets adapted to form clips with a strip of black ABS plastic top and bottom. For reference. the top strip is 1.25mm below the bottom edge of the moulded top and the lower strip is set at 4.25mm. The moulded 'trough' - or whatever you call it, between the side frames, has been removed leaving the vertical supports which have been packed with plastic strip to give a good clip fit to the BB motor bogie. It might be necessary to provide some support at the rear transom to prevent ant tendency of the side frames to tilt.

 

Colin

[Colin parks]

The 4 SUB project has got as far as four more or less rolling chassis. (Minus headstocks for now, due to the fact that I am pondering whether to have sprung buffers at each end.)

 

Pictured here is the unpowered motor coach chassis with the trussing just pressed into place to check clearances between the bogies and the sloping part of the truss. It's pretty close to the prototype clearance, or as near as is sensible on my track.

 

 

 

Many other parts have been made in readiness for the underframe detailing. I shall be able to add more accurate brake linkages thanks to Godfrey Glyn's photos of the 2 BIL http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/album/2889-preserved-2bil-dtc-at-the-nrm-shildon-august-2013/

 

Most parts of a 2 BIL's underframe equipment are identical to the 4 SUB, although there was no motor generator on a 4 SUB: no juice - no lights was how it was on the Southern suburban!

 

Colin

[5Bel]

Hi Colin,

 

Looking great so far. Thanks for the tip on the 4Sub story, it contains so much information. I keep picking it up and reading it when I am in the middle of other modelling tasks. One question for you, what size channel do you use for the solebars? I am afraid I guessed at 4mm when I chose mine!

 

Cheers for now, Ian

[Colin parks]

Hi Colin,

 

Looking great so far. Thanks for the tip on the 4Sub story, it contains so much information. I keep picking it up and reading it when I am in the middle of other modelling tasks. One question for you, what size channel do you use for the solebars? I am afraid I guessed at 4mm when I chose mine!

 

Cheers for now, Ian

Hi Ian,

 

Glad the book was of interest. I had another read through it myself to try and get clear in my mind which 4 SUB units had the 'Eastern' motor bogies. It turns out that the last 88, of which 4 SUB 4754 is an example, had those 9' 0" w.b. bogies. But having said that, one picture in the book shows a unit which should have that type of motor bogie clearly running with the 'Central' type. There must have been swaps as time went on in the late 70's as BR endeavoured to standardise the remaining units.

 

Re. solebars (yes, Mr Spellcheck, it is one word!) I make them from various strips of plasticard these days it gives a sharper look to them and the riveted overlay is easier to apply before the bottom flange goes on.

 

The standard SR chassis, both 62ft and 62ft 6ins, had solebars (of what can be deduced from the plans have) approx. 9-10" deep. This is easier for me to think of as being 3.5mm in 4mm scale. This depth also suits the Hornby bogies being used on this model (and the 4 COR): with the bogies sitting on 3 x 60 thou. plastic pivot support, it produces a gap of just about 1mm between the bottom edge of the solebar and top edge of the bogie (there being a small raised lip on the Hornby bogie pivot moulding which makes up the difference).

 

The headstocks are deeper, I always assume the figure of 12" for those, i.e. 4mm. A characteristic of the SR chassis (maybe many others too -I haven't looked) is that the bottom flange of the transverse headstock sits under the solebar resulting in the small gap as seen in this photo of the preserved 4 COR motor coach seen here:

 

 

It so happens that I have made diagram showing the various thicknesses and dimensions of plastic used in the chassis construction. In fact, I am taking notes of all parts of common construction to the 4 SUB and other SR EMUs.

 

So there you are, 3.5mm solebar depth is the answer!

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[5Bel]

Hi Colin,

 

Thanks for the info on the solebars. The picture of the 4Cor is excellent, I think you are right about the small gap. The Blacksmith kit had the feature designed into it, before I replaced the solebars that is! 

 

Cheers for now, Ian.

[Colin parks]

Here is a rough sketch of a cross section of the floor/solebars as used on the recent SR and BR(S) EMUs.

 

 

The top flange of the solebar is wider than it should be. This has been done to make it easy to line it up with the edge of the floor for simplicity. The solebar then butts up behind the top flange, making its location to the floor also very easy.

 

Interestingly (and just as well I looked again at the post by dasatcopthorne on page 5 of this topic), the bodywork of the 4 SUB is built so that the top flanges of the solebars and headstocks are not seen.

 

Colin

[Ceptic]

Snip........

 

Interestingly (and just as well I looked again at the post by dasatcopthorne on page 5 of this topic), the bodywork of the 4 SUB is built so that the top flanges of the solebars and headstocks are not seen.

 

Colin

 

Hi all,

 

If it's of any interest, Bulleid's LHCS had the same feature.

 

 

Prototype o/s channel section sizes for Solebars were 10" x 3 1/2", Headstocks were 12" x 4".

 

All the best,

 

Frank.

Edited September 15, 2013 by Ceptic

[Colin parks]

Hi all,

 

If it's of any interest, Bulleid's LHCS had the same feature.

 

ScannedImage-9 (2).jpg

 

Prototype o/s channel section sizes for Solebars were 10" x 3 1/2", Headstocks were 12" x 4".

 

All the best,

 

Frank

 

Hi Frank,

 

Thanks for the photo and confirmation of the channel sections.

 

Given that the model's solebar channels have to be thicker than the prototype being made of plastic, at least the other dimensions drawn are as close as can be to achieve scale proportions. It is just as well that the solebar depth is no more than a scale 10", because the motor bogie side frames are slightly higher than the 8ft trailing ones, which leaves clearance of only 0.5mm betwixt solebar and motor bogie - very close! From what can be seen of the loco-hauled coach in your photo, the Southern chassis were pretty much made from standardised parts. It's also good news to confirm that the headstocks are 12"/4mm deep, as those are already made.

 

You may notice that I have drawn slightly over-width running boards on the sketch at 3mm /9". As they are fixed directly to the solebars and not having mounting brackets with the consequent gap, they were widened to give the overall width of a scale 9' 0".

 

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[Colin parks]

Not much work done this weekend as we have just got back from taking our daughter up to university for Freshers' week.

 

Anyway, to combat the empty-nest feeling, I have been checking out the outer headstocks and their fit to the solebar/floor assembly. The buffer bodies are the old Branchlines fittings from my ex-Kirk 2 BIL. They look a little worse for wear, as back in the days when I knew even less about SR EMUs than I do now, I filed the castings down to match the depth of the headstocks, while cursing the pattern maker as I did so! Of course, they really should over shoot top and bottom of the solebar, so I will have to graft on some plastic strip to make up for the self-inflicted error.

 

 

I had considered scrapping the buffer bodies when I realised that they did not have the 'lip' on the leading edge of the casting like the real ones did. But then the Hornby ones do not either and I can't think of a better solution. (The best examples I have seen were those made by Bazza, as shown in a photo which he posted on the 4 COR topic.) At least the buffers have separate heads, which have been made of turned brass and blackened with Birchwood Casey 'Aluminium Black'. This product produces a very nice dirty look when used on brass.

 

I am still pondering how the cab fronts and leading headstocks will fit together - especially as the body should sit so that the top flanges are concealed, except at the cab corners. The top flanges of the iinner end headstocks will have their carefully applied top flanges carefully removed and the headstocks under the cabs will need a slot, some 10 thou. x 1mm wide, filed so that the body rests level on the chassis.

 

Colin

Edited September 16, 2013 by Colin parks

[Colin parks]

Tonight's delight is that of adding the running boards.

 

The headstocks were detailed and fixed to the inner ends prior to this operation. The inner end central buffers have been fitted and sprung too. (Some care was taken to get these buffers on the correct trailers, the TC has only one, whilst the TSO has one at each end.)

 

I have found that an old, hefty steel ruler is just the right thickness to rest the boards on when fixing them with solvent to the face of the solebar.

 

 

But this is the easy bit: next, the tops of the running board brackets have to be applied - all 104 of them!

 

Colin

[Colin parks]

The pick-ups have been fitted to the powered motor coach trailing bogie. It is a simple conversion.

 

I was surprised to find that I had not taken a picture of this aspect of the work needed to fit pick-ups to the Hornby bogies when building the 4 COR. I had forgotten how I did it on that model and was looking for a photo to remind myself how it was done! The following picture might come in useful to someone:

 

 

Firstly, the bogie bolster 'plank' has been removed along with the middle parts of the inner brake linkages. This gives plenty of space to fit the parts and only requires six easy cuts in total, leaving the bogie still intact (i.e. no brake shoes falling off). Two 8BA studs were then set (& locked in place with a dab of superglue) in drilled and tapped holes either side of the pivot, taking care no to foul the bearing surface on the top of the bogie moulding. The contacts are my usual type, with separate tags soldered onto the feed wires. The assemblies are held securely with 8BA nuts. It can be seen that he feed wires pass up through a slot in the bogie stretcher and then up through a slot in the floor.

 

Having blown three decoders in the past due to mixed up connections, all wiring is now done with red for + and black for - polarities. The motor bogie unit has been re-wired to get rid of the terrible jumble of wires as seen in an earlier post. The tops of the studs are also marked for polarity for idiot-proof re-assembly after painting.

 

Colin

Edited September 19, 2013 by Colin parks

[the penguin of doom]

Hi Colin.

 

How much "give" is there in the bogies where the wires pass through to the body? I'm currently doing an "aside project" on some Pullman cars in between the O gauge stuff and need to thread some wiring in a similar way.

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

[Colin parks]

Hi Colin.

 

How much "give" is there in the bogies where the wires pass through to the body? I'm currently doing an "aside project" on some Pullman cars in between the O gauge stuff and need to thread some wiring in a similar way.

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

Hi Sean,

 

The wire is from from All Components and is 0.75mm dia. (I shall double check that as the packet is not to hand). Thinner wire is available, but as the model will run on DCC, the extra capacity and strength of the wire is worth it. (it also come in all the colours you could wish for.)

 

The 5 x 2.5mm slot through bogie (12mm back from bogie pivot centre), has been made as close to the pivot point as was practical without producing a sharp kink in the wires. Positioning the slot thus reduces the lateral movement of the wire which enables the bogie to swing well enough and should prevent breakage of the soldered joints. The slot through the floor (26mm* back from bogie pivot centre) is positioned so that there is no dog-leg bend in the wires between bogie and floor. This also prevents unnecessary drag on the bogie as it swivels.

 

The slots through the bogies could be made larger if you are concerned about free movement of bogies on un-motorised coaches. I admit I have no experience of wiring up for such things and the effect of multiple vehicles treated thus. There is a company (Australian?!) who produce an almost frictionless pick-up in the form of a spring threaded onto the axle of a wheel-set where one wheel is insulated and the other live to the axle/spring pick-up. I had thought that this idea could be adapted for use with Hornby coach wheels too as some types come with only one insulated wheel - although it does mean taking one wheel off to fit the spring.

 

 

Anyway, I have tested the whole unit of four chassis, complete with sprung inner buffers and of course the pick-ups etc.. There have been absolutely no problems with the arrangement at all and the set of chassis, without any extra weight, worked very well together at the first time of asking (something I am unused to!).

 

(* The figure of 26mm was arrived at for the wires to emerge through the floor in the middle of the seating bay on the 4 SUB. In any case, a distance 14mm between top and bottom slots is pretty much what is needed. The exact position is down to the particular coach being wired up.)

 

All the best,

 

Colin

Edited September 19, 2013 by Colin parks

[SRman]

I use a similar technique to run wires from trailing bogies, usually with a slightly wider slot to allow for tighter curves. It works for me!

The company mentioned re the coiled spring pickups is DCC Concepts (which is Australian). Their products are available from some UK suppliers as well.

[Colin parks]

I use a similar technique to run wires from trailing bogies, usually with a slightly wider slot to allow for tighter curves. It works for me!

 

The company mentioned re the coiled spring pickups is DCC Concepts (which is Australian). Their products are available from some UK suppliers as well.

Thanks for that SRman,

 

If I didn't have such a stock of phosphor-bronze sheet to make my own pick-ups, that is the system I would go for! Re.slots, yes the slots must match the track! I suppose simply drilling a 5mm hole would work too - if not a little risky using a drill of such a size given the delicate nature of the bogies.

 

All the best,

 

Colin

Edited September 19, 2013 by Colin parks

[the penguin of doom]

Thanks Colin and SRman for your replys.

 

Ironically, I have already used the DCC concepts pick ups, (I will post pictures on my thread in good time), and would highly recommend them.

 

I now know what wire to use and where to drill, and will be resuming work on my 3 Pullmans armed with the info above.

 

Cheers guys.

 

Sean.

[Colin parks]

Thanks Colin and SRman for your replys.

 

Ironically, I have already used the DCC concepts pick ups, (I will post pictures on my thread in good time), and would highly recommend them.

 

I now know what wire to use and where to drill, and will be resuming work on my 3 Pullmans armed with the info above.

 

Cheers guys.

 

Sean.

Hi Sean,

 

I shall be looking out for pictures of the results. On reflection, I do think drilling holes for wiring would be easier than slots - if they don't show once you've got the lights on! Incidentally, are you fitting pick-ups to all axles?

 

All the best,

 

Colin

 

Colin

[the penguin of doom]

I am Colin.

 

I found a company that supply the DCC concepts pick ups only. £4 odd for a pack of 10. I've amassed some scrap Hornby pullmans which are giving up their interiors and their wheels. The Brake 3rd and Parlour 3rd are pretty much a straight swap, but my Kitchen 1st has proved somewhat more difficult.

 

The wiring passes below the interior but above the chassis so there should be no escape of light between chassis and bogie.

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

[Jack P]

Looking really good Colin!