HAB Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 Well. what a hotbed of news this place is! A 2 HAL eh? Heard it here first and your secret is safe with us Colin! I confess to being staggered that no one mentioned the lack of a compressor on the BIL until now - certainly I recall no previous discussion - here nor elsewhere. I must drop a note to Roxey as there is a potential market here as the 2NOL (and 3 SUB) does indeed have both a compressor and a cradle to carry it. It is a bit worrying that a single omission in one place can have consequences all over!! Fortunately, it is pretty obvious where it goes as there is only one space - behind the main equipment case, opposite the little box whose function I don't know which is between the grids and the main reservoir. (well, that is where the Roxey sketch shows it) Best wishes, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAB Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 I have already confessed in a pm that I was wrong about one of the 2 NOL photos! My post crossed your PM - sorry about that. And you are completely forgiven even if there were a few minutes of frantic page turning Best wishes, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted September 27, 2013 Author Share Posted September 27, 2013 Well. what a hotbed of news this place is! A 2 HAL eh? Heard it here first and your secret is safe with us Colin! I confess to being staggered that no one mentioned the lack of a compressor on the BIL until now - certainly I recall no previous discussion - here nor elsewhere. I must drop a note to Roxey as there is a potential market here as the 2NOL (and 3 SUB) does indeed have both a compressor and a cradle to carry it. It is a bit worrying that a single omission in one place can have consequences all over!! Fortunately, it is pretty obvious where it goes as there is only one space - behind the main equipment case, opposite the little box whose function I don't know which is between the grids and the main reservoir. (well, that is where the Roxey sketch shows it) Best wishes, Hi Howard, Well, there is point in secrets which lead to mistakes on models. I have encouraged one RMwebber in particular to share his SR prototype plans with Hornby for the sake of the rest of us! Yes, the compressor can only occupy the space in the position you describe. For comparison, I have checked my 4 COR drawings and they show the compressor in that place too. Confusingly, on that plan, the 4 COR motor coach is drawn as having battery boxes where the grids definitely are. That 'little box' next to the grids that you mention is baffling me at present. On the 4 SUB, I am sure it is attached to a larger box, but like you, I can't tell what its function was. At least we don't have motor generators to worry about, as the lights on our chosen units worked at line voltage. All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted September 27, 2013 Author Share Posted September 27, 2013 Compressor pictures from an unusual angle by dasatcopthorne are here for anyone who wants a better look at the cradles etc. (post #330) http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/15056-bulleid-2hap-emu/page-14 Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceptic Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 (edited) Hi Colin There are quite a few model railway drawings in circulation that might not have been drawn from scratch, but used the work of others as a basis for their own. I quite often see the same error in drawings of a diesel locomotive and can trace back to the oldest version with that misinterpreted piece of information. Hornby could well have used another source for their drawings which relied on information from a Mike King drawing. I have been told that Nick Campling claims that on his LNER coach drawings there is an intended error and that is repeated by other draftsmen. I have learnt that drawings are only as good as the skill the draftsman has in interpreting the information he has been given. Same goes for model makers, some have a little information but use it to its fullest. Others can have a pile of information and somehow not quite achieve what they aim for. Yep, the very same occurred from a deliberate uncorrected mistake* in my 1979 vintage Bulleid LHCS drawings. Although it would have been quite easy to spot from a photo, both later draughtsmen and kit manufacturers failed to pick up on it. They have been informed, but, as far as know, the error is still present. * See signature. All the best, Frank Edited September 27, 2013 by Ceptic Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted September 28, 2013 Author Share Posted September 28, 2013 Hi Colin There are quite a few model railway drawings in circulation that might not have been drawn from scratch, but used the work of others as a basis for their own. I quite often see the same error in drawings of a diesel locomotive and can trace back to the oldest version with that misinterpreted piece of information. Hornby could well have used another source for their drawings which relied on information from a Mike King drawing. I have been told that Nick Campling claims that on his LNER coach drawings there is an intended error and that is repeated by other draftsmen. I have learnt that drawings are only as good as the skill the draftsman has in interpreting the information he has been given. Same goes for model makers, some have a little information but use it to its fullest. Others can have a pile of information and somehow not quite achieve what they aim for. Hi Clive, I missed your post at the end of the page. Interesting indeed to hear of deliberate errors being incorporated into some drawings. You are probably right in thinking that plans are copied and re-drawn over the years, perpetuating any error from the first. That was the conclusion I came to with regard to the 4 CIG . As far as I know Hornby did use the Mike King plans - that is what he told me anyway. I can see how he missed the compressor on the 2 BIL , but the rest of the issues are down to the model's designer. As for information, its interpretation and use thereof, I'd fall into the latter category. The next model is always intended to be the one I am going to be happy with. It never quite works out that way, but it is an interesting journey! All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted September 28, 2013 Author Share Posted September 28, 2013 Yep, the very same occurred from a deliberate uncorrected mistake* in my 1979 vintage Bulleid LHCS drawings. Although it would have been quite easy to spot from a photo, both later draughtsmen and kit manufacturers failed to pick up on it. They have been informed, but, as far as know, the error is still present. * See signature. All the best, Frank Hi Frank, I am beginning to realise that plans can only be a guide for the modeller for principal dimensions. Most of the modelling I do now is done with the aid of photos as a final reference just to be sure that the plans are correct. Life can be confusing. All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold A Murphy Posted September 28, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 28, 2013 (edited) Colin, As one who dabbled in ship modelling for a while, I would completely agree with the sentiments expressed above. Even where you may have a good or even original plan of an 'as built' vessel, by the time it has seen service for any length of time, the chances of it being modified start to rise. If you are talking about a class of vessels, this can apply, as can the further complication that ammendments may be made, even as further units are being built, after operational experience, new, modified equipment added etc. If we are talking about bits of railway equipment, again built over time, modified, batch built by different contractors - all this occurs before we even get to ongoing maintenance, repair, upgrading etc etc. Moral: photographic evidence is every bit as necessary and potentially even more important when building good, or in your case, great models. Best wishes, Alastair M Edited September 28, 2013 by A Murphy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 (edited) I sometimes wonder whether plans can be more trouble than having nothing at all beyond a few basic dimensions. This is often the case when I'm building wagons from scratch though that's generally helped by the average British goods wagon being quite a small beast built to a number of relatively standard sizes. This makes things relatively easy to scale or position relative to 'knowns' like wheels, buffers, etc., should the need arise. Coaches are harder for a whole host of reasons - not least because their relative size brings perspective into play and because of the potential for differences in construction and detail. SR EMUs must be the most awkward of the lot; smallish batches, recycled components, few preserved vehicles... It makes the problem I currently have in understanding where the bits go on more modern vehicles than I'm used to pale somewhat:http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/37002-adams-em-workbench-clayliner-taking-shape/page-8&do=findComment&comment=1169203I know what bits were present, but the order in which they were put varies quite a bit between similar wagons.... If it weren't for Paul Bartlett's pictures (and the like of Dave Smith and 'Ceptic for EMUs), we'd likely be cheerful enough, in our ignorance, to guess or to stick to what we can actually prove.As an aside, I have a theory that, rather too often, Hornby reach for a plan or an existing kit rather than a measuring tape and a detailed survey of an extant prototype - the VEP and the BIL are possibly the most glaring examples of this; the forthcoming LMS CCT and LNE Fish Van suggests something similar. It just serves to make Colin's work all the more impressive (despite his protests about the minor imperfections - every scratch builder knows about these...).Adam Edited December 21, 2013 by Adam 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted September 28, 2013 Author Share Posted September 28, 2013 Well following on from last night's grumbling, I thought I'd better make some compressors! I can make no claim to accuracy, but based on the photos, these are as close as I can manage. I fear the overall length might be wrong, but at least they will be there on the chassis. Colin 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium MJI Posted September 28, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 28, 2013 I have been told that Nick Campling claims that on his LNER coach drawings there is an intended error and that is repeated by other draftsmen. That is rather nasty if you use it for modelling - basically it makes the drawing worthless. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
the penguin of doom Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 Those compressors are smashing Colin. As one who "dabbles" in plastics, I can pretty much work out how you've made them, but perhaps you could explain in a little more detail about your methods to us novices?..... Cheers. Sean. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigermoth Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 When it comes to plans the best way is to measure it yourself albeit difficult when dealing with standard gauge, even a small NG loco can take up to four or five hours to do properly. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted September 28, 2013 Author Share Posted September 28, 2013 (edited) Those compressors are smashing Colin. As one who "dabbles" in plastics, I can pretty much work out how you've made them, but perhaps you could explain in a little more detail about your methods to us novices?..... Cheers. Sean. Hi Sean, The method is crude and simple: at the back of the compressor is a square of plastic 3.5 W x 4 H X 5mm Long on the back of that is another rounded piece to represent a cover. The rounder part of the compressor is guesswork and filed from solid plastic, but there was definitely a removable top on the real thing, so that has been decorated with pieces of 0.4mm rod top represent the bolt heads (just as you so ably do on your work). There are sections of 2mm rod with a shaped double flange as a manifold or whatever it is to the l/h front. Various slices of plastic rod are peppered all over the place as bolt heads on covers etc.. The whole thing is a bit of a blag really but looks OK on the chassis: The cradle is bent up lengths of 1.25mm x 20 thou. strip. I am not sure the assembly hangs low enough, so that could be subject to revision. This is not the same cradle as in the previous picture. All the best, Colin Edited September 28, 2013 by Colin parks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceptic Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 When it comes to plans the best way is to measure it yourself albeit difficult when dealing with standard gauge, even a small NG loco can take up to four or five hours to do properly. In my case, I did just that, but, as Alistair points out, things can change, from the work's drawing / prototype and throughout the vehicle's life. I did attempt to cover these modifications in my drawings. At the time, (Pre-Internet age) I was lucky enough to have access to several withdrawn / preserved coaches. Not all, though. Others no longer existed. All I had to rely on were works, very basic, G/As and a few photographs. The present day world wide references provide much more information. "If only" I had this source back then !, I might have provided a better job. All the best. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigermoth Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 (edited) In my case, I did just that, but, as Alistair points out, things can change, from the work's drawing / prototype and throughout the vehicle's life. I did attempt to cover these modifications in my drawings. At the time, (Pre-Internet age) I was lucky enough to have access to several withdrawn / preserved coaches. Not all, though. Others no longer existed. All I had to rely on were works, very basic, G/As and a few photographs. The present day world wide references provide much more information. "If only" I had this source back then !, I might have provided a better job. All the best. What can happen sometimes, even more frustrating when the measured item is far away is that your own photographic evidence dosn't tie up with your own measurements leaving you with a big doubt, since this happened to me some time ago i now always insist on triple verifying everything before leaving. Edited September 28, 2013 by Tigermoth Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium MJI Posted September 28, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 28, 2013 Those underframe bits are good, basically a similar method to what I have used for my E1883 bar car, but to be honest a lot better standard. My air brakes are just smoothed off sprue! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
5Bel Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 Hi Colin, The underframe parts look excellent as usual. I can't believe that Hornby have left of the compressor off, did they actually go and see the real thing? As for the 2Hal, I have one to refurb and bring up to a better standard. Mine will have a compressor. Can't wait to see the bodywork progress. Cheers for now, Ian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted September 28, 2013 Author Share Posted September 28, 2013 (edited) What can happen sometimes, even more frustrating when the measured item is far away is that your own photographic evidence dosn't tie up with your own measurements leaving you with a big doubt, since this happened to me some time ago i now always insist on triple verifying everything before leaving. Hi Tigermoth, I don't get out much to measure the real thing, even though examples of most of the prototypes I have modelled recently still exist in some form or other. One crumb of comfort I had recently was to visit Horsted Keynes and see the 4 COR motor coach in close-up. Despite the lack of a field trip before building the model, there was very little that differed from what had been deduced from photos posted here on RMweb by dasatcopthorne and others, plus careful reading of books and study of the photo therein. That convinced me that cross-reference and 'peer review' works well: if someone sees something amiss with a model of mine I'm always glad to hear about! As Adam says, Ceptic and dasatcopthorne et al are invaluable to we SR EMU modellers for their knowledge and access to their archives. All the best, Colin Edited September 28, 2013 by Colin parks 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted September 28, 2013 Author Share Posted September 28, 2013 Hi Colin, The underframe parts look excellent as usual. I can't believe that Hornby have left of the compressor off, did they actually go and see the real thing? As for the 2Hal, I have one to refurb and bring up to a better standard. Mine will have a compressor. Can't wait to see the bodywork progress. Cheers for now, Ian. Hi Ian, Yes no compressor. No, they didn't look at the real thing! All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
the penguin of doom Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 (edited) Smashing, thanks for the update Colin. I'll be popping that into my "other peoples ideas" box for some upcoming, (non EMU), projects. Cheers. Sean. Edited September 29, 2013 by the penguin of doom Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted September 29, 2013 Author Share Posted September 29, 2013 Smashing, thanks for the update Colin. I'll be popping that into my "other peoples ideas" box for some upcoming, (non EMU), projects. Cheers. Sean. Hi Sean, You're welcome to use the idea, but check the dimensions of whatever type of compressor you are modelling: mine are a bit too long! All the best, Colin 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted September 29, 2013 Author Share Posted September 29, 2013 (edited) ....and another thing I have discovered: Not all shoe fuse boxes and their mountings are consistent in design through the different classes of SR EMU. The 4 SUBs seem to have the type seen in this picture with splayed (or angled if you wish) support brackets. The drawing shows vertically hung brackets, but I have not yet found a picture of such a design on a production 4 SUB. It could well be that reclaimed motor coach chassis had one sort and new builds this kind. Forgive the slight distortion of the image. The lens of the camera was only 5cm from the subject. In reality, the brackets were bolted to the top of the plank on which the shoe fuse box sits. That would have not looked so neat on the model, so they are situated underneath and the brass brackets are attached to the solebars with plenty of superglue. (This did compromise the position of the small fixing under the plank to the right which holds the cable.) On the 4 SUBs the power line conduit from the fuse box runs behind the running board then in through a hole in the solebar near the 'V' hanger. This feature did not seem possible to model as the boards are fixed to the solebars with no gap for the conduit. So it's design clever for me: I just left that part off! The conduit is made from 0.5mm plastic rod and the cable which runs to the collector shoe is of (the very hard to come by) 0.4mm variety. Most work on the chassis is now done, with just the screw couplings, brake pipes, brake cylinders and linkages to fit. The it's down to the nitty gritty - cutting out windows. Colin Edited September 29, 2013 by Colin parks 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Godfrey Glyn Posted September 29, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 29, 2013 Colin What a wonderful new book! I presume that the compressor is the item in these photos taken under the 2BIL? I guess the last photo shows the air intake? I trust your compressors will have the small samples of vegetable material on their upper surfaces! very best wishes and congratulations on another wonderful production. Godfrey Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAB Posted September 29, 2013 Share Posted September 29, 2013 (edited) Excellent post Godfrey - many thanks. Edited September 29, 2013 by HAB Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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