Colin parks Posted November 2, 2013 Author Share Posted November 2, 2013 (edited) But would the overhang be the same for all units ? Yes Tigermoth it would! The 4 SUB 'production' motor coaches were all made on the same jig and there was only one jig. The same jig was used right up until 1958 when the (Bullied) 2 EPB bodywork was constructed on the remaining salvageable 62ft underframes which had been recovered from withdrawn 2 NOLs. All the best, Colin Edited November 3, 2013 by Colin parks 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceptic Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 Hi Frank, The cab front 's bottom edge is anything but straight: a cut out for the coupling hook followed by a cut-away to avoid the buffer casting, then down over the headstock to not quite level with the side. I haven't yet profiled the cab fronts of the model as it is something best done after the bodies are assembled. I do know what those yellow 'fangs' are. They are the front faces of the support (body restraining?) brackets under the cab which are bolted to the headstock. There would be two brackets on the other motor coach headstock of 4732, but not painted yellow, which is why they do not appear to be present. Again, these brackets will be fitted to the model's headstocks once the bodies are assembled, as they must line up with the cab fronts. The devil being in the detail once again. All the best, Colin Riiiiiighttt........Received and understood. Thanks Colin. I hope everybody is paying attention ?....Questions will be asked later (at end of lesson)..... .....Oi,...You,...Ceptic..... wake up at the back there !... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted November 4, 2013 Author Share Posted November 4, 2013 (edited) The door bumps are all fitted, so that's another 160 'bits-to-fit' crossed off the list! The next step is to match the various roofs, chassis, ends and sides so clips can be installed while the sides are still unattached to anything else. Now where did I put the assembly instructions?! Colin Edited November 4, 2013 by Colin parks 14 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRman Posted November 5, 2013 Share Posted November 5, 2013 Colin, I'm getting heartily fed up with pressing the 'Craftsmanship/Clever' button on all your posts. Can't you botch something up for us, just for a bit of variety?? p.s. Keep up the brilliant work. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted November 5, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 5, 2013 How much time do you spend clearing your workbench before you take your pictures? Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
5Bel Posted November 5, 2013 Share Posted November 5, 2013 Hi Colin, I like the look of your workbench, so neat! Mine is always a mess! I am looking forward to the 9 compartment trailer coming together, I don't think I have ever seen one modeled before. Cheers for now, Ian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted November 5, 2013 Author Share Posted November 5, 2013 Colin, I'm getting heartily fed up with pressing the 'Craftsmanship/Clever' button on all your posts. Can't you botch something up for us, just for a bit of variety?? p.s. Keep up the brilliant work. Hi SRman, There are some less than perfect windows which are to be corrected with superglue and sandpaper. I did mess up some false ceilings last night too. Not much gets through quality control to be seen in photos though! All the best, Colin 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted November 5, 2013 Author Share Posted November 5, 2013 How much time do you spend clearing your workbench before you take your pictures? Mike. Hi Colin, I like the look of your workbench, so neat! Mine is always a mess! I am looking forward to the 9 compartment trailer coming together, I don't think I have ever seen one modeled before. Cheers for now, Ian. Well it is a good point Ian and Mike. The area where most work (apart from lathe work) is done on the desk which is always cleared in the evening for business paperwork the next day. Very little work with plastic involves much mess and only the tools specific to the task are ever taken out of the tool box at any one time. A great deal of modelling is done while having relevant prototype photos as reference displayed on the computer monitor in front of me while I work. If there is a doubt about anything, it is easy enough to search on the web for more photos. The middle drawer of the desk is usually left partly open as it is most useful for catching small parts that would otherwise fall, hopelessly lost, to the floor. All the best, Colin 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted November 6, 2013 Author Share Posted November 6, 2013 Tonight was clips night: fitting three clips per side, positioned in doorways so as to avoid seating and one at each end. This task is so much easier done at this stage before the bodies are put together. The clips are 8mm x 1.5mm sq. Slater's strip, plus pieces of 20 thou. to make the flanges of the clips. The idea is that the clips hold the side tight to the floor and also at the right level. Well, at least they hold the side on without it falling off, but some fine-tuning will be needed to get the clips just right. The floors have bowed somewhat in the weeks since their making. This is due to all the joints made with solvent being on the underside. Once the bodies are assembled and clipped on, the floors will pull up level (that's the theory!). Here, a side is shown test-fitted but not adjusted yet. It does begin to feel like I am getting somewhere now. There are all the door hinges to fit before the sides are assembled -oh and all the glazing needs cutting out too. Colin 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAB Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 Hi Colin, All looking first class and I echo the comments about the quality of the job. But the thing which most amazes me is your work rate! There is a phenomenal amount of work to get a 4 car unit this far, yet looking at the date you started this thread... Looking forward to the next instalment, Best wishes, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigermoth Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 (edited) I agree, great work, i don't know either how you manage to find the time. Edited November 7, 2013 by Tigermoth Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted November 7, 2013 Author Share Posted November 7, 2013 (edited) Hinges, hinges and yet more hinges. Each lower hinge position was drilled through the laminations using a no. 79 drill. With careful manipulation, the holes were 'routed' by angling the drill and moving up and down. (This is a procedure best not done after you have had a few.) The bottom hinges are made using brass strip 10thou. x 1mm wide x 2mm long. (Sorry Tigermoth, mixed units of measurement again!) First , the strip has an angle filed on each side at one end then it is parted-off and positioned with the pliers thus: Then, the pliers are used to force-fit the hinge, leaving 1mm protruding. (The exposed end is then dressed with a file.) Once in, the hinge will not be at the correct angle, so it needs now to be tilted up slightly. (Remembering that technically, all three door hinge pins should line up on the curved side.) A completed side. The hinges will have a touch of super glue on the inside just to be sure none move. s always, there are no hinge back plates modelled, but it seems best to get the hinge as near to scale as possible and leave the rest to the imagination! The middle and upper hinges will be made of plastic strip as they do not stand off the side by such an amount as the lower ones. So, that leaves on 160 to do! Colin Edited November 7, 2013 by Colin parks 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted November 7, 2013 Author Share Posted November 7, 2013 Hi Colin, All looking first class and I echo the comments about the quality of the job. But the thing which most amazes me is your work rate! There is a phenomenal amount of work to get a 4 car unit this far, yet looking at the date you started this thread... Looking forward to the next instalment, Best wishes, Well Howard, the work rate has been improved with the use of your jigs don't forget! It has to be said that a 4-car unit built from scratch is a monumental task. This one is turning out to be even more of a job than the 4 COR - and that is saying something. It has taken over seven weeks to get this far, so I hope it doesn't put anyone off trying their hand at scratch-building. All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted November 7, 2013 Author Share Posted November 7, 2013 I agree, great work, i don't know either how you manage to find the time. Hi Tigermoth, Time available for modelling usually comes right at the end of the day and sometimes goes on into the small hours. I try and save 'time' by thinking out each task very carefully before actually doing any work (it is a mental process which I think is called ' visualisation'; If I can't imagine how to perform a job, I don't do it. That is probably why the work surface is always so tidy! All the best, Colin 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRman Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 Well Howard, the work rate has been improved with the use of your jigs don't forget! It has to be said that a 4-car unit built from scratch is a monumental task. This one is turning out to be even more of a job than the 4 COR - and that is saying something. It has taken over seven weeks to get this far, so I hope it doesn't put anyone off trying their hand at scratch-building. All the best, Colin The 4 COR doesn't have anywhere near as many doors and windows as the SUB! This is quite a daunting task you have set yourself Colin, but you seem to be mastering it extremely well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted November 9, 2013 Author Share Posted November 9, 2013 Glazing has been occupying most of the time now, having finished the dratted hinges. It was not as straightforward as I had expected. On cutting the first strip of PETG, it seemed a little tough. When I tried to bend and snap the joint -it broke unevenly. This was not good. Worse still, the pieces that were eventually cut to size would not take a curve, which on the 4 SUB quarter lights is essential. Then the pieces would not fit in the slots. Upon measuring the sheet, it became clear (no pun intended!) that the thickness was 0.7mm not 0.5mm as sold. This was not the fault of my local model shop as the sheets were in original Expo bags marked '0.5mm thick'. Luckily, Martyn the shop owner quickly found some pieces of glazing sheet of the same stock which I have been using for years (and exhausted my supplies of when glazing the 4 COR). So, armed with that stuff, I set about testing the 'no-glue' design which can be seen in the following photos. The first shot does show the curve in the quarter lights, but there is precious little contrast between the white side and clear windows, so use your imagination folks! Here, the reverse side shows how the glazing is held. I have added extra strips of plastic to hold the door glazing: having put 10 thou. overlays on the reverse side of the doors, the recesses were consequently 10 thou. shallower than those of the quarter lights. The bottom edge of each pane is inserted into the lower slot then pushed upwards with the point of the knife. To prevent it slipping down, two pin-pricks are made, thus trapping the pane in position. Colin 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Alister_G Posted November 9, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 9, 2013 Hinges, hinges and yet more hinges. Each lower hinge position was drilled through the laminations using a no. 79 drill. With careful manipulation, the holes were 'routed' by angling the drill and moving up and down. (This is a procedure best not done after you have had a few.) The bottom hinges are made using brass strip 10thou. x 1mm wide x 2mm long. (Sorry Tigermoth, mixed units of measurement again!) First , the strip has an angle filed on each side at one end then it is parted-off and positioned with the pliers thus: IMG_7176.JPG Colin Colin, I have to ask, in the photos with both your hands in view, which bit of your anatomy fires the shutter on the camera?? :scratchhead: Superb work as always, Al Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted November 10, 2013 Author Share Posted November 10, 2013 Colin, I have to ask, in the photos with both your hands in view, which bit of your anatomy fires the shutter on the camera?? :scratchhead: Superb work as always, Al Hi Al, I use the timer function! The camera used is a Canon Powershot SX200 IS. It is used in program mode, which allows for manual focusing and rudimentary light balancing. The exposure is the longest available at ISO speed 80. Sometimes the camera is mounted on a small tripod too, though most of the time it just rests on the flat surface with a small wedge of foam under it to tilt the lens towards the subject. All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAB Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 Hi Colin, Glazing looks very good and has to be better than trying to glue things in. Does this mean you will not be going for your previous "double layer" method this time? Just a question: the two retaining pin pricks: will you make these before assembling the body (ie - pre-making all the glazing before assembly) or will you push the glazing in and then administer the pin after the body is assembled and painted? Plus my supplementary: how will you represent the droplight top edge, given that previously you had this as part of the inner door layer? Best wishes, Howard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted November 10, 2013 Author Share Posted November 10, 2013 Hi Colin, Glazing looks very good and has to be better than trying to glue things in. Does this mean you will not be going for your previous "double layer" method this time? Just a question: the two retaining pin pricks: will you make these before assembling the body (ie - pre-making all the glazing before assembly) or will you push the glazing in and then administer the pin after the body is assembled and painted? Plus my supplementary: how will you represent the droplight top edge, given that previously you had this as part of the inner door layer? Best wishes, Howard. Hi Howard, In answer to your questions: The glazing will be fixed by the pin method post-painting/transfers and varnishing. I am going for simple single glazed sides as there is precious little space for secondary glazing recesses without weakening the sides. (The recesses would need to be larger than those for the outer glazing of course.) Looking at the Tin HAL, which was pretty much the test-bed for making the 4 SUB, it is nigh on impossible to tell that the No-Smoking transfers are on the outer surface. This makes the finishing process so much easier. The 4 COR was not suitable for single glazing as its fixed windows were all framed. How the top light top edge will be represented is a good question. I see two possible ways: scribe onto the glazing, which I have done before. It gives a silvery look and if the windows are shut, does look like a frame. The other possibility is to add a strip of cigarette paper (even 5 thou. plastic strip would interfere with the fit of the glazing, so that's out) to the inside top edge of the drop light. I have never done this, it could work or it could be that the paper would distort when painted. More than likely, I will scribe the top light frame in. The more pressing consideration is how to go about adding the mending plates to the bottom edges of the sides. I have thought of cigarette paper strips wetted with solvent as a means of doing this, but whether this will give a sharp enough finish. I do not know. The use of 5 thou. plastic strips could work, but I don't have any! I might try adding 10 thou. strip to one section and sand it down - that worked well on the 4 CIG sides I made, but it was a lot of work. All the best, Colin 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAB Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 (edited) Hi Colin, Many thanks for the clarification. Just regarding the N/S transfers, are you aware that Replica Railways do these "in reverse" so that they can be applied on the inside? I used these for the EPB when I fitted the Lazer Glaze windows and I think they look excellent. They also do Blue Hotdogs should you wish to upgrade 11457 ! Regarding the repair patches, I am not sure I have ever seen .005" strip and only Evergreen seem to do 005" sheet and I find that stuff pretty difficult to cut cleanly as it seems much tougher than normal styrene and I suspect it is made from a different plastic. Best wishes, Edit:- trust me to choose a not very flush example to have its picture taken,,, Edited November 10, 2013 by HAB Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted November 10, 2013 Author Share Posted November 10, 2013 Thanks for the tip about replica 'reverse' transfers Howard. I shall have to put in an order. Looking at some photos last night, it has become clear that the 4 SUBs had a large number of no-smoking signs. I do wonder if the smoking areas of 4377 were confined to the pseudo-composite as all the other coaches were open saloons. Ian Fisher has kindly offered to send me a piece of 5 thou. plastic sheet to try. You will of course find out soon enough how I get on! You 2 EPB glazing does looks a great deal better than the original Bachmann stuff. On the 2 HAPs which you saw at Derby, the panes were hand-cut and fitted in much the same manner. I ran around the edge of each pane with a CD marker pen, which took away the white-edge effect. I am sure that only a digital camera image picks up on the slight tilt of that quarter light. There must have been a very small difference in either the coach tooling or the laser-cut pane. A digital camera is a most useful modelling aid though: if you can get something to look right in a photo, then it really is right. All the best, Colin 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAB Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 There must have been a very small difference in either the coach tooling or the laser-cut pane. A digital camera is a most useful modelling aid though: if you can get something to look right in a photo, then it really is right. Can't blame the tolerances I'm afraid - in truth the fit is so good that you can "put it where you want it" and I failed to get it right! Must try harder next time. I did try a black pen but I think a CD marker might be much more opaque - thanks for that tip as I do have another EPB to do. Best wishes, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAB Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 Looking at some photos last night, it has become clear that the 4 SUBs had a large number of no-smoking signs. I do wonder if the smoking areas of 4377 were confined to the pseudo-composite as all the other coaches were open saloons. I just had a look through the pics I thought might be helpful, but in truth, the signs don't show up beyond the first vehicle in most photos. Since the provision of smoking accommodation changed so much over time, it would be hard to be dogmatic about any particular arrangement. I seem to remember that when we were refurbing the EPBs - which were all large saloons - just one of the trailers was smoking and the bad news is that I think both quarter light carried transfers. I can't imagine it was massively different 10 years earlier but the question would be "which trailer". I will keep looking for pics... What we needs is a savvy ex-commuter from the period who knew to seek out the bigger compartments - they would be able to tell us! Best wishes, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted November 10, 2013 Author Share Posted November 10, 2013 I just had a look through the pics I thought might be helpful, but in truth, the signs don't show up beyond the first vehicle in most photos. Since the provision of smoking accommodation changed so much over time, it would be hard to be dogmatic about any particular arrangement. I seem to remember that when we were refurbing the EPBs - which were all large saloons - just one of the trailers was smoking and the bad news is that I think both quarter light carried transfers. I can't imagine it was massively different 10 years earlier but the question would be "which trailer". I will keep looking for pics... What we needs is a savvy ex-commuter from the period who knew to seek out the bigger compartments - they would be able to tell us! Best wishes, Hi Howard, I have re-read 'The 4 SUB Story' and along with study of pictures in 'A Southern Electric Album' am almost sure of the smoking arrangements! David Brown & Bryan Rayner state quite clearly that the motor coaches of the 4 SUBs were 'smoking' and the trailers 'non-smoking'. This is supported by the excellent colour photos of 4 SUBs in Michael Welch's book where none of the motor coaches featured carry any red triangle markings on their windows. If unit 4377 was the same as other 4 SUBs in this respect, then two of its pseudo-composite trailer would have been smoking compartments. I am not going to lose any sleep over which end they would have been, but my guess is the two standard size third/second class compartments towards the centre. All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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