scratchbuilding a L.N.E.R. J21

[Sasquatch]

This is great stuff!!  Would never have thought of using plastic card for a chassi. You have opened up a whole new future, now I just need to work out where to scrounge more time!

 

Regards Sasquatch.....over here in the North West but firmly in the North East when it comes to trains! 

Edited October 18, 2013 by Sasquatch

[Londontram]

I want to build an 0-8-0 chassis and tempted to try in plasticard just to see how it runs I can play around with ideas much cheaper and easyer than if I make it in brass. I've already got the puritans swooning with dispair at wanting to have a go at building an 0-8-0 as a virtual novice so I might as well go the whole way and build it in plasticard. 

[manna]

G'day Gents

 

The LIMA, J50 had a plastic chassis.

 

manna

[david65061]

Dear All

 

Thanks for the encouraging comments I'll try to keep my enthusiasm going. I have already made the tender chassis details to follow.

 

dear Steve

 

You might as well have a go to build your chassis in plasticard at worse you will have wasted an evening and have some useless pieces of plasticard. You will still have your wheels, bearings and coupling rods to use in a brass chassis you will then have to make. You will even get some practice in how to make a chassis. For both a plasticard and a brass chassis I would use the coupling rods to mark the axle holes. It is critical to get these measurements spot on or your chassis will never run smoothly. Make sure you also end up with two identical frames or you will put a twist in to the chassis when you join them together. I use some clever axle jigs which are sold for setting horn blocks to make sure every thing is square when I glue the frames up. The axle jigs are nothing fancy just axles with pointy ends which you slide the coupling rods on to, I can't remember where I bought mine but I think a few places sell them and they only cost a few quid, a worthwhile investment. I would use 40 thou plasticard for loco frames anything less will be to flexible I think. You also need to make sure the finished chassis is well cross braced. If you only put spacers in at each end like a brass chassis it will not be strong enough. Depending how visible your frames will be you might need a spacer between each of the axles, at the bottom under axles is a fairly hidden place if there is no better place.  Modelling the fire box between the frames is good for strengthening the frames with some double layering and gives you a prototypical cross piece at the front and back of the box. Anywhere the top of the frame is not visible on the engine I would use to make the frames as a box which makes them very strong. Plasticard frames are quite thick so you have to be careful what motor you use especially if you need to put it in the fire box as I will on the j21. I model in em which gives a little extra room in oo this might be a problem. I glue the brass bearings in with super glue. if you need to ream them out to get the axles to fit (i usually do) do it very gently with plenty of lubrication or else you will end up pulling them out. Its not as bad as all this sounds and if it all goes wrong which I am sure it will not you have only wasted some time. What is your prototype by the way, I would be interested to see how you get on.

 

David

[Londontram]

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/77147-chassis-advice-please/

 

Here's the link to the thread I opened to get some advice and ideas and if it works a photo of one of the engines in question, There was only 8 of these built originaly to pull the then new 30T bogie mineral wagon but it was soon realised that there wasn't enough loops and sidings long enough on the Caledonian for the projected size of the trains. the length of trains that could fit these sidings could be pulled by 0-6-0 so they wern't realy ever needed or used to there full potential. Sorry forgot to say its a Caledonian McIntosh 600 class 0-8-0 built between 1901 to 1903

Edited October 18, 2013 by Londontram

[Horsetan]

^^

That distorted wheelbase reminds me of what the Great Eastern did to the Decapod when they rebuilt it into 0-8-0 no.20....

[Colin parks]

That is one impressive Duchess, makes my offerings pale in comparison. I would have never thought you could have made a coned boiler in plastic card. I must have a go some time, though the north eastern only had parallel boilers. 

 

As Horsetan is convinced a plastic chassis will not work and will be all floppy so I thought I would post some pictures of two other models of mine which have a plasticard chassis. 

 

My other J21

 

85.jpg86.jpg

 

As you can see the chassis is well braced and the fire box is two layers which gives it strength and prototypical position between the frames.

 

87.jpg88.jpg

 

my j25

 

93.jpg

 

The chassis is yet to be motorised, but is built in the same way.

 

94.jpg96.jpg

 

though if the model duchess has not proved the versitility of modelling in plastic I don't know if my efforts will.

Hi David,

 

This is a very impressive topic which also throws up the perennial subject of Plastikard a: not being strong enough for building locos and their chassis in particular (and rolling stock for that matter) b; that Plastikard is prone to warping and/brittleness over time.

 

Your loco chassis as seen in this post seem solid and robust enough with metal where metal must be. Obviously, you are not a slave to plastic as a building material: your J21 has metal coal rails and other fittings. I do wonder if we are missing something here and have previous generations of modellers experienced the above problems, or is it an 'urban myth' that even well-constructed plastic models have a short shelf life?

 

After all, most RTR models are made with plastic bodies, albeit injection moulded and they seem to be durable.

 

 

Colin

Edited October 18, 2013 by Colin parks

[Sasquatch]

There are some Ian Kirk injection molded kits in a box here somewhere that are getting on for 30 years old and some of the smaller parts are a little brittle. 

The plastics obviously have lower melting tempratures than brass. The melting point of  Acrylonitrile Butadiene Styrene varies according to its chemical make up but is generally higher that styrene.

Styrene becomes brittle when exposed to sun light and is not as good  an electrical insulator. Some paints will attack styrene making it brittle and no doubt some lubricants will too. Other than that, avoiding a hot motor would be the only real caution.

The trade has used ABS for decades and on older RTR models the ABS parts have always been attached with screws or clips. Perhaps it hasn't been a viable modelling medium untill recently because of the availablity of suitable glue!

I am putting some ABS sheet at the top of my modelling budget prioity list.

 

Shaun

[MarkC]

I raised the topic of plasticard becoming brittle with age some way upthread. I'm involved with the (slow) restoration of an old layout, & the plasticard buildings, retaining walls etc have become very brittle. Now, I do wonder if the 'formula' for the material has been altered in recent times? Does anyone know? I'm not referring to ABS here btw; that's another material.

[Clive Mortimore]

I started to make plastic card diesel locos over 30 years ago and all my old ones have not become brittle. When I have mentioned this in the past, I have been told it is because I have painted them. Who does not paint their models? I do have some very long term projects that remain unpainted and have not gone brittle, it must be the thick dust covering that protects them.

 

They have not warpped over time, another thing I was told would happen. Any warpping problems usally happen very soon after assembly not after a period of time.

 

Using plastic is not real engineering therefore not real modelling. The level of work of David and Colin's models proves that plastic card is a wonderful medium for model making. 

[MarkC]

Thanks for that, Clive. It's been the bigger structures, which were painted, that are now fragile. It does occur to me that how stuff is stored might come into it too? Extremes of temperature, exposure to direct sunlight, that sort of thing?

[david65061]

Dear All

 

regards plasticard becoming brittle and warping and its suitability as a modelling medium. Personally I model in plasticard as it is an easy medium to work in. I do all my modelling at the dining room table and have a busy family life so with the odd half hour here and there I can easily get my gear out, do some modelling then tidy up after woods and make progress with my model as you have seen. As Colin said I am not a slave to plasticard, I do make brass kits and scratch-build in metal. If metal appears to be the best material to use I will use it. It is just that setting up to solder in the dining room and clearing up afterwoods takes so much longer and progress seems to be slower. But plasticard is sometimes the best medium to use as Colin also shows with his electric units. I think plasticard has got a bad reputation because all plasticards are not equal. I only use slaters plasticard or evergreen polystyrene sheets, (in fact I think plasticard is a trade mark of slaters) this is because I believe those two brands make a better quality plastic. 

 

My F8 model was made in slaters plasticard over 20 years ago and shows no signs of ageing.

 

 

I think the unbranded plastic sheets you get in some model shops are a lower grade plastic so will age and cause problems in the future. Does MarkC know the prominence of the plasticard in his buildings.

 

light or rather UV does effect plastic but how much depends on the quality of the plastic and how much direct sun light a model receives.

 

My model of a Q5/2 is about 10 years old and has never been finished. ( I have a problem with the chassis. It runs fine in reverse but in forward the motor kicks once every revolution of the wheels and I have never got around to sorting it out or building another chassis; one day the motivation or inspiration might come) As you can see there is a slight yellowing of the plastic.

 

 

If the model had been painted this damage could have been avoided. Again because I used good quality plasticard it is only very minor damage other wise the plastic feels fine. I imagine had I left it on a window sill in direct sunlight the damage would have been a lot worse. Perhaps people whose models are warping and brittle have them out on a layout in the sunshine all the time. At work we have big plastic tubs and if some one leaves them outside on a hot sunny day they often split soon afterwoods due to the UV damage they get. So a good rule would be not to let your plastic models get to much sun light. I would also say this is true of all your ready to run stuff to. Clive do your long term projects remain in a drawer for instance so are not getting uv damage.

 

Plastics used to be made with some very nasty chemicals which can not be used today so I would imagine that in the past the plastics would have been more resistant to getting brittle and warping. As ingredients have been band due to there toxicity manufacturers have had to find alternatives which lead to different recipes and sometimes an inferior product. 

 

I use 2-butanone as a glue which has been available for years so I don't think a change in glue has happened, though if you put too much solvent on your plastic I should imagine you will effect how it ages in the future.

 

I would agree with Clive that I am not doing engineering only making models. In fact I am so un engineering like that for instance I will mark the centre of a piece of material by eye and this will be good enough for my purposes though an engineer would be having kittens over the poor standard of work man ship. Today at the show in Peterborough there was an o gauge lay out (Sorry I cant remember the name but it was very big and had GWR and southern models on it and it was very inspiring) behind our layout. One of the operators was showing us his models he had milled out the chassis from solid brass bar and everything was perfectly true and square. After 10 years of use there was no wear because the tolerances that it had been made to were so fine. That is engineering and I would never make a claim to be doing engineering. It is some thing that I can look up to and admire but I know my limits.

 

David

Edited October 19, 2013 by david65061

[david65061]

class 600.jpghttp://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/77147-chassis-advice-please/

 

Here's the link to the thread I opened to get some advice and ideas and if it works a photo of one of the engines in question, There was only 8 of these built originaly to pull the then new 30T bogie mineral wagon but it was soon realised that there wasn't enough loops and sidings long enough on the Caledonian for the projected size of the trains. the length of trains that could fit these sidings could be pulled by 0-6-0 so they wern't realy ever needed or used to there full potential. Sorry forgot to say its a Caledonian McIntosh 600 class 0-8-0 built between 1901 to 1903

 That is a very nice prototype, but I am amazed that I have never seen a picture of one before. I never new they existed. I knew the Caledonian had   0-8-0 tank engines but not tender engines. Would it be painted a lovely blue colour with lots of difficult lining or was it a sensible black? I can see why scratch building is your only option as no other loco has a wheel base like that. Unfortunately it has a very exposed and long chassis so extra cross bracing would be very visible perhaps brass sheet might be a better medium to use. Unless one of the specialist Scottish model companies produces some coupling rods I would have thought it would be easier to use Alan Gibson Universal rods than make your own from scratch. What ever you choose good luck and please keep us updated.

 

David

 

David

[Nelson Jackson]

Hi David,

All I can say is "wow" your models look superb and are very well built to high standards, the detail is just amazing.

I've always wanted to scratch build a loco, but I guess I've never picked up the courage to have a go, but this thread changes all that, now I really want to have a go at some NCC engines soon :-).

If you don't mind me asking, I might have missed it somewhere, but what type of brass bearings do you use?

And, what are your thoughts on javis scenics plasticard?

Please keep doing what you do best as it is really inspirational and I can't wait to see the finished loco, and others to come.

Many thanks

Nelson

[david65061]

Hi Nelson,

 

I would be really pleased to hear that I have inspired you to have a go at building your own engine. Having seen your own modelling I particularly liked your ner bird cage brake van (subject close to my own heart) I am sure you have the skills to make your own loco. I have always liked the midland style 2-6-0s that ran in Ireland. One of the benefits of modelling NCC is that it not main stream (no disrespect meant) and you will end up with a unique model. As I have said before give it a go. With scratch building the worse that can happen is that you waste your time if it all goes wrong at best you have a unique loco that you can feel justifiably proud of.

 

The bearings that I have used lately are from intercity models (www.intercitymodels.com) but I have used other suppliers in the past particularly Alan Gibson. As they are such a simple thing I do n't think any suppliers could manage to get them wrong. You could even use pieces of brass tube if you can get it with an internal diameter of 1/8inch.

 

I have never come across jarvis scenics plasticard but I imagine as it is a branded product it will be good quality. I would not recommend using the plain unbranded sheets of plastic you find in some model shops. They may be fine but who knows? It is difficult to describe but you can almost tell how good a sheet of plastic is by touching it and feeling how it cuts with a scalpel. Some of the cheap unbranded sheets feel sort of oily and waxy.

 

Please keep us informed of you progress.

 

David

Edited October 19, 2013 by david65061

[MarkC]

Hi David

 

As far as we know, the materials used are original, & the layout dates back to the late 70s/early 80s. At that time there was very little choice of suppliers, so it will almost certainly have been Slaters. Materials have come a long way since those days, so it may well be a combination of age, material, heat, sunlight etc etc.

 

I guess the lesson here is to try & reduce as many variables as possible; OK, age we can't avoid, but how our precious models are cared for, we can.

 

This is a very interesting thread, for all sorts of reasons

 

Mark

[Horsetan]

....I have always liked the midland style 2-6-0s that ran in Ireland. One of the benefits of modelling NCC is that it not main stream (no disrespect meant) and you will end up with a unique model....

There is a kit for the "W" 2-6-0 available from Worsley Works, and the "WT"/Jeep may follow....in the next couple of years.

[david65061]

Dear all

 

I  have made the tender chassis out of 30thou plasticard. Again the drawing is glued to the plasticard with pritt stick and a new scalpel blade is to cut out the frames.

 

 

Brass bearings are then glued into the axle holes with super glue.

 

 

Cross pieces are then glued ready for the frames to be joined together.

 

 

Axles were put into the frames to hold them square as they are glued together. It would have been sensible to have wheels on the end of them and to rest it on a piece of glass so it is all level and square, but I need to buy some wheels so jumped ahead. Only time will tell if this was the right course of action.

 

 

Next I need to do the loco chassis but I will have to wait until I have bought some wheels and coupling rods. 

 

regards 

 

David

[Londontram]

now you've started the J 26 there's just one job to do on the J 21 before you put it to one side and forget it just paint this on the front. Sorry my friend forgive my humour. Regards Steve

[david65061]

Dear All

 

Steve need not worry I have not given up on my J21. Not that much has been done but I have added hand rails to the tender.

 

While at the Peterborough Show I bought some castings from D.M.R. Products A white metal N.E.R. tender water filler and N.E.R Water Dome. I thought they would do for my J21. The water filler is now glued on to the top of the tank but when I looked at some pictures of J21s I came to the conclusion that they don't have water domes. So unless you no other wise and j21s actually had water scoops on their tenders I have wasted money

 

 

David

[ArthurK]

Water Pickup is a minefield. What is likely is that the J21s did not have this was built. However some tenders were given pickup gear for use on the main lines where troughs were available. It is probable that the water domes on these were square rather than round as this was the vogue at that time. The LNER removed the pickup gear from many tenders and it is likely that it was removed from all J21s. The best clue as to whether pick up was ever fitted is the presence of tank vents.

 

Sorry I cannot be more specific.

 

ArthurK

[MarkC]

It also shows the value of photographs of the locomotive you wish to model, preferably in the period you want. As Arthur says, it's a minefield, and not just tenders, of course...

 

Looking forward to seeing the finished article now, David - it's really coming on well.

 

Mark

[david65061]

Dear All

 

I think a tender full of coal might be a good idea then the absence or not of a water dome will not be a problem.

 

I have made a start on the loco frames. I am doing a little experiment with this loco as I am going to fit compensation into a plasticard chassis. A first for me. While thinking about the build it occurred to me that I could glue the horn blocks onto the plasticard with epoxy resin. I am using some high level horn blocks which are very good quality. In fact I wished I had used them on my j26 rather than the perserverance ones. If it does not work I just remove the glue from them and buy some alan gibson milled frames to fit them to instead.

 

Again I used the drawing of the loco to base the frames on. I also used the coupling rods of my j26 build as I will buy some identical ones for this job when I purchase the wheels from alan gibson.

 

Pritt stick was used to glue the drawing on to 40thou plasticard. Then I marked on the actual shape of the frames I needed.

 

 

The frames were cut out with a fresh blade in the scalpel.

 

 

There is a slight miss match between the drawing and the actual coupling rods so I used the coupling rods to mark the axle centres and drill them out.

 

 

I used drills in the axle cntres to hold the two frames together so I could shape them to the same shape. 

 

 

Once the frames were filled to shape I moved the drill bits to the holes for the brake rigging so I could make the holes for the horn blocks.

 

 

next I need to glue the horn blocks in to position and fit the compensation beam.

 

regards

 

David

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sandy Harper]

 That is a very nice prototype, but I am amazed that I have never seen a picture of one before. I never new they existed. I knew the Caledonian had   0-8-0 tank engines but not tender engines. Would it be painted a lovely blue colour with lots of difficult lining or was it a sensible black? I can see why scratch building is your only option as no other loco has a wheel base like that. Unfortunately it has a very exposed and long chassis so extra cross bracing would be very visible perhaps brass sheet might be a better medium to use. Unless one of the specialist Scottish model companies produces some coupling rods I would have thought it would be easier to use Alan Gibson Universal rods than make your own from scratch. What ever you choose good luck and please keep us updated.

 

David

 

David

Apologies for the hijack but couldn't resist!!

 

David, This is what 'Caledonian sensible black' looks like!!

 

 

 

Enjoying the thread.

Regards

Sandy

Edited November 4, 2013 by Sandy Harper

[david65061]

Dear Sandy

 

No problem with hijacking the thread I'm always happy to see other peoples  models. They are very nice models, but there is nothing sensible about that black the lining must have taken you hours. The only sensible colour for steam engines is plain unlined black it makes painting so much easier.

 

David