HeavyDuty Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 I've been dabbling in 7mm for some time now (but US O scale has been a major interest of mine for years.) I've acquired a Bachmann Brassworks 03, several Lionheart minerals and have built a Peco 16T to date. My modeling focus in 7mm has distilled down to building a freelanced East Anglian BLT ca. 1960 to be known as "Byford" (my surname is Ford, and it's by me, so...); plans are still a little nebulous, but I'm thinking a small inland Norfolk market town with a maltings plus a sand operation on the outskirts of town. I'm lucky enough to have a large basement with a 32' long wall that I can molest with a permanent layout; in addition I would like to build something small and portable enough to take to our infrequent local shows - possibly a module that normally forms a part of Byford. To this end, I've picked up two Connoisseur wagon kits to learn how to build soldered brass models. This is a mode of construction that is almost totally foreign here in the states, and in forty years of modeling I've never built an etched kit. My goal is to gain the skills to be able to build one of Jim's beautiful J15 kits to use on Byford. The wagons I purchased - an LNER Lowmac-L and an ex-GER 10T ventilated van - would each be useful on the layout (the flat could be used to transport machinery to the sandpit and the van for bagged malt.) I have 70, 110 and 188 solder on hand plus several irons and a temp controlled rig I use for electronics work. The last stumbling point was flux, but a jar of Powerflow arrived in today's post. Time to get to work! A major reason for my starting this thread was to shame myself into progress. I could use opinions, though - of these two models, which would I be better off starting with being a completely unexperienced solderer? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymw Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 Hi Ken, The Lowmac is a skill builder kit, so start with that. You'll need something to push out the rivets, plenty of 'em there. Jim's instructions are pretty comprehensive, you probably won't find better. Best wishes, Ray Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 Definitely the 10T ventilated van kit - very straightforward whereas the Lomac isn't. (in fact I'd rate the J15 as easier - if taken steadily step be step) Personally I wouldn't touch Powerflux with a barge pole let alone let it near my soldering irons or an etched kit. (but I know others seem to like it) Use the 188 solder for the big items and the 110?? (never heard of it - sounds suspiciously like that horrible rubbish lead-free stuff. Anyway a lower than 188 for all the brass detailing. finally low melt 70 solder is ONLY for the white-metal castings - I doubt if Powerflux is of any use whatsoever in getting it to flow and flow it must as it isn't really solder. Take it slowly clean every part thoroughly - dirt is your worst enemy and the cause of most "abandoned" soldering. Do not be afraid of putting heat into the job so start with your highest wattage iron - in 7mm you probably will then find you need nothing else (except for a lower wattage for the white-metal. After a while you will learn that the amount of solder to make a strong join is actually very little and that getting the parts to butt tightly together is more important - file off those tags that join the parts to the fret (not the tabs) and remove the etch cusp on the edges. Practice and you will find it gets easier. Jim's instructions are pretty good, but do not be a slave to them. Oh, and good luck and enjoy the build. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
R A Watson Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 Kenton and I have crossed irons (amicably) on here before on the thorny subject of fluxes and solder combinations on many occasions and I suggest you search for the older threads and research what has already been written before starting. One further tip as you have the kits in stock start with the scrap etch bits and practice before trying to assemble the bits you set out to buy and turn into your masterpiece, after all you would only throw them away otherwise! Enjoy, Wally Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavyDuty Posted September 4, 2013 Author Share Posted September 4, 2013 My mind is going - what I thought was 110 is actually 145. That makes more sense! Ray, that's what I was thinking (plus the Lowmac is cheaper if I completely bodge it up) but I'm worried about building it cranked. I'm wondering if the simple box construction of the van wouldn't be an easier start. Kenton, thanks for your comments - and your mention of the ease of building the J15 is heartening! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavyDuty Posted September 4, 2013 Author Share Posted September 4, 2013 Wally, that is my plan - to play with the frets first before lying iron to the kit components. I'm pretty handy building electronic kits, but I realize this is a new skill for me to master. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatB Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 I actually agree with Kenton that the Lowmac is not quite as simple as it may, at first, seem. Mine is currently in a box awaiting remedial attention although that is more down to me than the kit. However, if you have access to a reasonably flat surface and a small engineer's square or something that will serve the same purpose (another poster has demonstrated that half a dozen Lego bricks will do a fine job) it's not too hard to build straight and flat. I followed mine with a much more complex brake van and then an implement wagon (just to prove I could successfully build something lowmacish ) before moving on to Jim's Y7 loco which, in comparison, particularly with the brake van, was a doddle and has given me the confidence to move on to bigger and more complex prototypes, with a couple of Mercian Models kits now on order. As said above, cleanliness and heat are two things you can't have enough of. I've been using a combination of 145 and 179 solder and have had no problems. It took me a while to get the hang of the 179 as it needed more heat than I expected to get it to flow well and it seems more sensitive to inadequate cleaning than the 145 but now I've got the technique it's fine. I use a Weller 80W iron with a wide wedge tip for brute force heating and a Hakko soldering station, bought in a rare fit of wealth, for finer work and whitemetal (which I remain a bit rubbish at). Above all, it's a matter of practice and, above all, having the nerve to give it a go. There is very little you can do to brass that is irretrievable. If worst comes to worst you can point a torch at the model until it falls apart and then you can have another go. Whitemetal is more delicate but there is no such thing as a casting that can't be replaced somehow, often with something better. Best of luck. When it does come right and the solder flows almost like magic and a detailed, 3-dimensional model emerges from a flat sheet of brass before your very eyes the satisfaction is tremendous. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavyDuty Posted September 4, 2013 Author Share Posted September 4, 2013 I just found some 188 paste solder, too. My irons are 10, 40 and 80 watt, plus the temp controlled station which only has a small tip for now. I had a frustrating time calling around to pharmacies today for some 12% phosphoric acid solution. No one here wants to touch non medical compounding. Are there common sources for this, or am I going to have to pay top dollar for imported Carr's fluxes? I think the van will be the first victim. The large white metal door frames scare me a bit, but if I totally pooch the build I can always use it as a grounded van body somewhere. (Actually Jim's support is said to be legendary, I'm sure I can get spares if needed.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatB Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 I just found some 188 paste solder, too. My irons are 10, 40 and 80 watt, plus the temp controlled station which only has a small tip for now. I had a frustrating time calling around to pharmacies today for some 12% phosphoric acid solution. No one here wants to touch non medical compounding. Are there common sources for this, or am I going to have to pay top dollar for imported Carr's fluxes? I think the van will be the first victim. The large white metal door frames scare me a bit, but if I totally pooch the build I can always use it as a grounded van body somewhere. (Actually Jim's support is said to be legendary, I'm sure I can get spares if needed.) Try car accessory shops for rust converter, most of which is phosphoric acid based. Not the various magic primer paints but the stuff that needs to be brushed on, left for a while and then washed off. If all else fails, Baker's Fluid or any similar zinc chloride liquid or paste flux sold for plumbing will work (and I've found it a great help for whitemetal/100 degree solder which, as I said, I'm not very good at) but is very aggressive and requires thorough decontamination of the model after every session (mind you, I'd recommend doing so with phosphoric acid flux too). I use a strong solution of bicarbonate of soda (baking soda) well scrubbed into everything with a brush and then rinsed in near boiling water. You could also use sodium carbonate (washing soda), instead of bicarb, which is a standard swimming pool chemical (over here anyway) available cheaply in bulk. Personally I wouldn't use caustic soda (drain cleaner) as it's sufficiently dangerous to handle that I avoid it wherever I can, although some people swear by it. If you need to import flux, try these guys. I use their No Clean flux for brass and find it excellent, although I do find that I still need to scrub the model in hot, soapy water after every session. Whitemetal needs the slightly more aggressive standard flux (or would if I was any good at it) to have any hope of making 100 degree solder flow. Dunno about the legalities of sending it airmail are though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymw Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 Hi Ken, I don't know the situation where you are, but in the UK, agricultural merchants sell 'milk-stone remover' - used for cleaning milking machines, etc. - many of them are high strength phosphoric acid. I use that as a solder flux - I buy it by the gallon for about $20 in your money. You may also be able to find it via a local food/drink manufacturer supplier - used as a cheaper form of citric acid. There are other industrial uses for it too - used in cleaning stainless steel after welding, for example, it depends how good you are at asking around. There is plenty of phosphoric acid on the usa ebay site - just dilute it if you need, though I use mine full strength, thus no need to worry about cleaning the brass. Paste solder is ideal, but a tad expensive, but you don't need much - dilute it with water. Best wishes, Ray Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavyDuty Posted September 5, 2013 Author Share Posted September 5, 2013 Pat, Ray - thanks for the tips! I have a farm store the next town over, I'll look there and at the auto parts store too. I did find a small bottle of liquid flux at the hardware store tonight. There are no ingredients listed, but it says that it is acidic. I'll try and find an MSDS sheet or call the manufacturer to determine the contents. Does the actual acid used matter? Also, I just remembered that I bought a few OO wagon kits from the same estate sale that I got all the soldering supplies. They were very inexpensive, and I was thinking at the time that I could use them as sacrificial lambs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatB Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 Pat, Ray - thanks for the tips! I have a farm store the next town over, I'll look there and at the auto parts store too. I did find a small bottle of liquid flux at the hardware store tonight. There are no ingredients listed, but it says that it is acidic. I'll try and find an MSDS sheet or call the manufacturer to determine the contents. Does the actual acid used matter? Also, I just remembered that I bought a few OO wagon kits from the same estate sale that I got all the soldering supplies. They were very inexpensive, and I was thinking at the time that I could use them as sacrificial lambs. My guess would be that it's zinc chloride but the MSDS will reveal all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 I did find a small bottle of liquid flux at the hardware store tonight. There are no ingredients listed, but it says that it is acidic. I'll try and find an MSDS sheet or call the manufacturer to determine the contents. Does the actual acid used matter? Also, I just remembered that I bought a few OO wagon kits from the same estate sale that I got all the soldering supplies. They were very inexpensive, and I was thinking at the time that I could use them as sacrificial lambs. The acid does matter! Too strong an acid and your soldering iron tip will be corroded and destroyed in short time - even one session. Most iron tips these days are plated VERY thin and the ferrous(iron) metal will be attacked very easily. Even the good old solid copper tips would not stand up to strong acids. Phosphoric acid (and citric acid more so) is a weak acid to start with - even then you need to dilute somewhat before use. Remember the acid (flux) serves two purposes in soldering - molecular level cleaning of the brass and solder and as a flow enhancer at the interface. Remember very little solder is required to make a join - soldering bras should not be seen as filling a gap - most people (yes even me) use too much solder. The strongest join is when hardly any is used and when you use too much you only end up having to scrape it off. 4mm kits are quite different from 7mm - the thickness of brass used for one thing presents the problem of more rapid heat transfer (your 80W iron would be a potential disaster - perfect for 7mm lumps not so good for 4mm) BTW keep the 10W for soldering electronic components you will have no use for it in kit building - you might as well use a match) The best thing to practice on is the scrap from the etch solder two pieces at right angles then see how difficult it is to pull apart, solder a T join, try soldering two edges together flat, one piece of brass on to another (laminate), finally drill a couple of holes and solder a piece of brass wire in place - you will soon gain the confidence to start the kit as other than folding parts there is nothing more to it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavyDuty Posted September 5, 2013 Author Share Posted September 5, 2013 OK, I'll take that flux back and try and find some phosphoric acid to dilute. Citric acid, eh? That might be easier - I think they use it in canning. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kickstart Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 Hi I have built a couple of the Connoisseur kits, as the first brass kits I have built. Generally went together well, although read the instructions . The 2nd one I was over confident and missed doing a few minor bits until it was too late to be easy . My fault entirely. With sorting out the buffers, take your time drilling out the buffers castings to fit the shafts of the buffers. Given time it is easy. I used Slaters working screw link couplings. All the best Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Boucher Posted September 7, 2013 Share Posted September 7, 2013 I would pick the Lowmac. Add me to the list of people who built a Connoisseur kit as their first. I built the Loriot, similar to the Lowmac, both skill builder kits. Also being in the US, most of my friends looked at me like I'm crazy when I showed them a sheet of brass and some whitemetal and said I was going to build it. I posted my progress, trials and tribulations on my workbench thread. I started it on the old RMWeb, linked to in the first post, and finished it on this iteration: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/18405-bouchs-7mm-workbench/ Good luck! Its really not as hard as you might think, with a little practice you'll do fine. The first step is the hardest one. And feel free to ask for advice. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavyDuty Posted August 3, 2014 Author Share Posted August 3, 2014 I firmly believe that model kits are like cheese - the get better with a little age. I call it "shelf testing." I finally decided to quit procrastinating, sit down and start soldering. I only have the Powerflow flux; I haven't had luck finding anything better locally, so I went ahead and used that. It worked fine. Today I started with the Lowmac. I managed to get the entire rolling superstructure assembled; I am ready to move on to the cast details and the smaller brass parts (load retainers, brake levers and the like) after I do some cleanup. And boy howdy*, I have cleanup to do. I'm still trying to come to terms with how much solder to carry on the tip. I did OK, but there is quite a bit extra solder to remove in places. In a few places I've managed to partially fill etched recesses - I'm thinking a small triangular file is the item to use here. I was just experimenting with using a hobby knife to remove the excess in a few other areas, but I think I need a curved blade (all I have are pointed #11s at the moment.) I also have a fiberglass brush that seems to do well for flat surfaces, but I need to remove a few blobs first. My biggest error was when I tinned some of the smaller parts. The Lowmac has etches to represent the webs of the triangular underfloor reinforcement plates. When tinning these I managed to overload them to the point of having the solder flow around to the front obscuring the rivet detail. That was a real beast to clean up. What other techniques can I use to clean up this mess? The wagon is not a wreck or anything like that, but I do need to do something about the excess solder before I move on to detailing. Would brass brushes in my Dremel be a bad idea? * Boy howdy - rustic Americanism for "d*** right" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 As an avid etched kit builder over here, I'll add my 2 cents. I have a digital Weller soldering station and I love it! It comes up to temp very quickly and being digital I get a real time tip temp. readout. If I want to adjust, I get the temp. change quickly too. I use 145 or 188 solder for brass and NS. 70C for whitemetal. I also use phosphoric acid flux (Carr's Green which I've had for a very long time and which I think is a bit difficult to get by mail). I also found that Benzomatic plumbers water soluble paste flux (avoid the petroleum based stuff) works well on all the solders. The only issue I've found is that it is difficult to clean up. DCC Concepts (referred to above) have a range of "green" solder and flux. I've been meaning to try it when I run out of the Carr's. I believe Gaugemaster are distributors. I get more control over how much solder I use by cutting tiny amounts off the roll and picking those up with the iron. It's more time consuming I guess but it works for me. Indispensable tools for me are the narrow and broad fiberglass pencil/pen (from Eileen's Emporium). These work extremely well to clean up solder, although if I get a very large blob I find refluxing, spreading with the iron and fiberglass brush works well. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavyDuty Posted August 4, 2014 Author Share Posted August 4, 2014 Hi, John - I was using my newer temp controlled iron today, and it made life much easier! I'll look for that Benzomatic flux, too - I suspect it can be had locally. I just came up from trying a wire brush in the Dremel. It worked great - I'll pick up a smaller one for some of the tighter areas on the sidesills. I will admit a wonderful feeling of accomplishment from today's labors! I haven't had this much modeling fun in years. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Good to know Ken. I spent the day making up a Comet coach kit. Exhausting but a great feeling. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatB Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 For removing excess solder from small components (and anywhere else really) I find desoldering braid and/or a solder sucker, both available from electronics suppliers, to be useful. For mechanically scraping the stuff, anything with a reasonably robust edge of the right sort of shape will do. A piece of old needle file, snapped off to leave a sharp end and stuck in the end of a piece of wooden dowel as a handle works well, as do various worn knife blades. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavyDuty Posted August 4, 2014 Author Share Posted August 4, 2014 I was making ample use of desoldering braid, but I still need to remove more. The scratch brush is doing the trick once I remove the blobs. It's looking much better already. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Dunno whether it is me but I find "Desoldering Braid” difficult to use effectively. It is probably me - being self taught in it’s use! Perhaps someone can indicate how to use it correctly? I will try out any method, honest! Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 I don't use the braid very often, preferring the fiber brush, but when I do, it seems to work better when fluxed - probably obviousness. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 No, not obvious at all and I tried that and it did become more effective - though not as much as I had hoped. Cheers, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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