Vale of Rheidol 1-6

[Mr Brunel]

I'd like to see some pictures and maybe a little bit of information about locos 1-6, as all I can see is 7,8 and 9. What happened to the rest?

[cornelius]

4, 5 & 6 actually didn't exist (or if those numbers were allocated by the GWR they were not Rheidol locos). All is explained here:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vale_of_Rheidol_Railway_locomotives

[BernardTPM]

The simple answer is they don't exist, since the current number series was originated by the Great Western and augmented by British Railways (Western Region). Even more confusingly the original VoR numbers ran from 1-3, 1 & 2 being the original Davies & Metcalfe 2-6-2Ts and no.3 being a secondhand Bagnall 2-4-0T. These three locos were given the numbers 1212, 1213 and 1198 (though the last was never carried as the loco was almost immediately withdrawn). 1212 was later withdrawn, two new 2-6-2T locos built by Swindon, 7 & 8, while 1213 was nominally rebuilt by Swindon to match. Little remained of the original though. The GWR also owned the Corris Railway, and their locos were retained their original numbers 1-4 (3 & 4 later went to the Tal-y-llyn, still retaining their old numbers).

So, by 1948 the Rheidol had three locos numbered 7, 8 & 1213. 1213 was renumbered 9 by BR. In recent years they've added no. 10 the Baguley Drewry.

[Tim H]

The GWR also owned the Corris Railway, and their locos were retained their original numbers 1-4 (3 & 4 later went to the Tal-y-llyn, still retaining their old numbers).

 

Not quite - Corris 1 & 2 had been scrapped before the GWR took over. GWR 1 and 2 were "Earl" and "Countess" on the Welshpool and Llanfair.

 

So Nos 1, 2, 3 and 4 in the VoR number series all still exist, although they never ran on the VoR.

 

What were GWR 5 and 6?

[Adam]

Not quite - Corris 1 & 2 had been scrapped before the GWR took over. GWR 1 and 2 were "Earl" and "Countess" on the Welshpool and Llanfair.

 

So Nos 1, 2, 3 and 4 in the VoR number series all still exist, although they never ran on the VoR.

 

What were GWR 5 and 6?

 

The Earl and The Countess were nos. 822 and 823 respectively (though they may have been 1 and 2 at some time - I think they are defined as such by th modern W&LR - I don't have the information to hand).

 

Adam

[John_Hughes]

The simple answer is they don't exist, since the current number series was originated by the Great Western and augmented by British Railways (Western Region). Even more confusingly the original VoR numbers ran from 1-3, 1 & 2 being the original Davies & Metcalfe 2-6-2Ts and no.3 being a secondhand Bagnall 2-4-0T. These three locos were given the numbers 1212, 1213 and 1198 (though the last was never carried as the loco was almost immediately withdrawn). 1212 was later withdrawn, two new 2-6-2T locos built by Swindon, 7 & 8, while 1213 was nominally rebuilt by Swindon to match. Little remained of the original though. The GWR also owned the Corris Railway, and their locos were retained their original numbers 1-4 (3 & 4 later went to the Tal-y-llyn, still retaining their old numbers).

So, by 1948 the Rheidol had three locos numbered 7, 8 & 1213. 1213 was renumbered 9 by BR. In recent years they've added no. 10 the Baguley Drewry.

 

I don't think there was ever any actual rebuilding involved, other than as a book-keeping exercise; although there is a passing resemblance between the original VoR Davies and Metcalfe engines and the GW ones, the latter were all really new builds, ordered in batches to avoid the expenditure having to go for Board approval.

 

It's said that the cylinders and some other motion parts were recovered from decommissioned steam rail-motors; whether this is true I'm uncertain, but they certainly look the part.

 

When I first knew the VoR, in the mid-50s, the engine crews were quite happy to open the locos up on the section between Capel Bangor and Llanbadarn, and my recollection is that they could manage a fair turn of speed, although the coaches bounced around considerably - very thrilling for a lad in his early teens.

[mr45144]

Not quite - Corris 1 & 2 had been scrapped before the GWR took over. GWR 1 and 2 were "Earl" and "Countess" on the Welshpool and Llanfair.

 

So Nos 1, 2, 3 and 4 in the VoR number series all still exist, although they never ran on the VoR.

 

What were GWR 5 and 6?

Earl and Countess were 822 and 823 not 1 & 2.

 

Kev

[John_Hughes]

According to Whitehurst's Great Western Engines, Names, Numbers, Types and Classes 1940 to Preservation (that's a mouthful!) No. 1 was absorbed Hercules from the Ystalyfera Steel Works, and there seems not to have been a No. 2.

[BernardTPM]

I don't think there was ever any actual rebuilding involved, other than as a book-keeping exercise; although there is a passing resemblance between the original VoR Davies and Metcalfe engines and the GW ones, the latter were all really new builds, ordered in batches to avoid the expenditure having to go for Board approval.

 

That's why I said 'nominal'. It is interesting, though, that the quoted cylinder dimensions for no.9 are still different to 7 & 8.

[BernardTPM]

Not quite - Corris 1 & 2 had been scrapped before the GWR took over.

 

I thought they were scrapped at the time the GW took over; it certainly wouldn't be unusual for the GWR to allocate numbers to and withdraw locomotives at the same time. The Welshpool locos definitely weren't GW 1 & 2.

[John_Hughes]

That's why I said 'nominal'. It is interesting, though, that the quoted cylinder dimensions for no.9 are still different to 7 & 8.

 

Green's magisterial book on the VoR says clearly of the three engines that 'mechanically they are identical' although there are a few minor differences in the appearance of No. 9 (mostly in the detail of the grab-rails and the fact that No. 9 has a cab ventilator and the others don't, even though it was shown in the assembly drawings!) I'm not sure where your information about the differing cylinder dimensions is from, but if you're right it's yet another oddity!

 

He also points out that a close study of the drawings shows that 'no single part' of the Davies and Metcalfe engines could have possibly fitted any of the new locos.

 

The whole saga really is quite fascinating for those of us who like these little powerhouses!

[BernardTPM]

I'm not sure where your information about the differing cylinder dimensions is from, but if you're right it's yet another oddity!

 

British Railways Locomotives and other motive power Combined volume 1972 edition (Ian Allen)

Vale of Rheidol Light Railway by W.J.K. Davies, 1964 edition (Ian Allen)

the latter quoting "As running now, No.9 is reputed to be identical in all major respects with the other two, except for the cylinder diameter which is stated in official records to be 11 inches, this leading to a slightly lower tractive effort' The other two were said to be 11 ¹/₂ inches diameter.

Of course, that doesn't mean it's true!

[John_Hughes]

British Railways Locomotives and other motive power Combined volume 1972 edition (Ian Allen)

Vale of Rheidol Light Railway by W.J.K. Davies, 1964 edition (Ian Allen)

the latter quoting "As running now, No.9 is reputed to be identical in all major respects with the other two, except for the cylinder diameter which is stated in official records to be 11 inches, this leading to a slightly lower tractive effort' The other two were said to be 11 ¹/₂ inches diameter.

Of course, that doesn't mean it's true!

 

Thanks - very interesting.

 

For what it's worth, the railmotor cylinders were uniformly 12" diameter x 16" stroke, and according to Swindon records quoted by Green, the Swindon-built VoR engines all had 11¹/₂" diameter cylinders, while the Davies and Metcalfe engines were indeed 11"; however, since the earlier engines had inside valve-gear, it's obvious that they couldn't have been reused without considerable work, none of which was necessary because by then the patterns and drawings for the larger cylinders were already in existence!

 

I suspect that the claim that the cylinders were of different sizes may have had more to do with the deliberate concealment from the Board of the fact that no actual rebuild had taken place, but short of stripping the engines down and measuring them there seems no way to be sure! (Incidentally, No. 9 does have its original regulator valve, while the other two were fitted with new ones some time in the late 40s or early 50s, so it does actually sound slightly different from the others!)

[melmoth]

 

What were GWR 5 and 6?

 

GWR 5 & 6 were the two ex-LBSC Terriers they got from the Weston, Clevedon and Portishead in 1940.

[Guest Phil]

I thought they were scrapped at the time the GW took over; it certainly wouldn't be unusual for the GWR to allocate numbers to and withdraw locomotives at the same time. The Welshpool locos definitely weren't GW 1 & 2.

 

 

 

According to Gwynn Briwnant Jones in "Great Western Corris" No 2s career was drawing to a close when it was stored in the open behind the carriage shed at Machynlleth. A photograph dated from 1925 reveals that No 2 was reasonably complete at that time and it was considered not to have been taken out of traffic more than a year or 18 months previously (1923-1924). Later photos exist (his words) which suggest the No 2 was never used after this period and cannibalisation for spares was taking place. Apparently the Kerr Stuart (No 4) was used to drag No 2 to Maespoeth shed "on 20 October that year, and parts were used to rebuild No 3" The author ambiguously adds 1925 to the end of the sentence.

 

In "Return to Corris" by AAA/CRS it is suggested that No 3 was rebuilt in 1920 using parts of No 1 - the author stating "if evidence of the rivet patterns is to be believed No 3 acquired No 1's frames". The author contines by saying that frustratingly No 1 officially remained extant for another ten years, despite no 1920s photographs, but there was still something to scrap in 1930.

 

This author agrees that No 2 was stored "semi derelict" behind the carriage shed in Machynlleth in 1925, but claims that when No 3 was sent to Swindon in 1926, No 2 was pressed back into traffic and ran the bulk of the traffic that year, because No 4 "was unpopular" until it received a new boiler in 1928. "No 2 was only fit to work a couple of trains in the latter year (1928) and it never ran again, joining No 1 in being cut up by a local scrap merchant after the GWR takeover.

 

JIC Boyd concurs that No 1 and No 2 were scrapped in 1930.