Layout design case study

[St Enodoc]

Good progress today. I have wired the electrical side of the control panel and finished off the wire-in-tube installation. Tomorrow will see the installation of the panel followed by tracklaying and connecting the track wiring to the panel.

 

Another little idea came to me today. Anybody else get confused which way is up when they are working upside down? I do, so I came up with the idea of writing on a piece of paper what wire goes through what hole. I did this working the right way up and poked each piece of paper into the appropriate hole. Then when I turn the boards upside down i will have a note of which wire is which without having to read my plan upside down!

 

20161117_195910.jpg

Isn't it fascinating how we all do things differently? I can't conceive of wiring a control panel and fitting point/signal controls (not to mention building platforms or scenery as others do) before I've laid the track!

 

Excellent idea for identifying the holes.

[colin penfold]

Isn't it fascinating how we all do things differently? I can't conceive of wiring a control panel and fitting point/signal controls (not to mention building platforms or scenery as others do) before I've laid the track!

 

Excellent idea for identifying the holes.

It's funny how the method dictates the order. On Southampton I did lay the track first and wire it up afterwards. I was using point motors with micro switches for frog polarity and peco track. This time I am using wire in tube which has to be put down before the track. I am switching frog polarity from the panel and the track itself is only in three pre-built panels so I know exactly where everything will go before I lay it. That may happen today with a fair wind...... Edited November 18, 2016 by colin penfold

[81C]

 I know exactly where everything will go before I lay it. That may happen today with a fair wind......

Beans for breakfast was it ?, it's interesting to see someone else's take on layout constructs shame your thread is hidden away in this section I rarely venture into you should promote it into the Layout section once you start to do the scenic work I'm sure it would be well recieved..

[colin penfold]

Feeling a bit glum tonight. The fair wind I hoped for earlier ended up being more like a Tsunami. Yes Bob, too many beans, obviously. I fitted the panel ok but when I started connecting up the wire in tube I found that all 0.4mm wire is not created equal! The stuff i bought is not stiff enough and just deforms when I operate the switch. Sent for some replacement wire but I wont have it for the weekend I cant lay the track until all the wire in tube is safely in place so I will not be up and running before I go back to work. I think I can do some more on the electrical side while I wait.

 

My hot glue gun packed up too

 

Also I looked outside and noticed my car had a flat tyre so it's off to the garage in the morning instead of valuable modelling time Hopefully that's three carp things if I want to be superstitious.....

Edited November 18, 2016 by colin penfold

[colin penfold]

 

 

[colin penfold]

I'm a really happy boy tonight.

 

Against all the odds my wire arrived this morning from Hugh Craig (highly recommended ebay shop for piano wire)

 

So I was able to finish off the wire-in-tube and do a trial run tracklaying (not yet using the double sided tape) With one minor tweak the wire-in-tube all worked first time.

 

I then spent the afternoon connecting the track to the panel electrically.

 

Here we are all wired up ready for testing in the morning

 

 

[colin penfold]

The rollercoaster is back on down today. Having iszues with the switching of the crossover. Any electronic wizards please proceed immediately to

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/117033-crossover-with-diamond-using-one-switch/?p=2505180

Edited November 20, 2016 by colin penfold

[The Stationmaster]

The rollercoaster is back on down today. Having iszues with the switching of the crossover. Any electronic wizards please proceed immediately to

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/117033-crossover-with-diamond-using-one-switch/?p=2505180

 

My first thought is that when the points are in reverse the diamond becomes part of the crossover between the two outer tracks and should therefore be completely electrically separate from the straight through track.  And it appears not to be as two of the crossings remain connected to the straight through track instead of the crossover route.

[Grovenor]

My first thought is that when the points are in reverse the diamond becomes part of the crossover between the two outer tracks and should therefore be completely electrically separate from the straight through track.  And it appears not to be as two of the crossings remain connected to the straight through track instead of the crossover route.

Hence my comment about the DC/DCC differences in that other topic.

Colin,

Your wiring for the crossover can only be correctly sorted if we know the rest of the intended layout wiring and sectioning. With a layout of this complexity wiring it as all one section will be very operationally limiting.

Regards

[colin penfold]

Keith, I'd appreciate any help. My original wiring diagram is as follows. I hope it's legible.

 

[colin penfold]

The layout looks complex but its just a single line station with a passing loop making up main and down main, then a loop siding on each side (you can see the physical track layout above. I have drawn the wiring diagram for cab control with two controllers but all that would allow is a simultaneous departure of up and down services that were crossing at Burghclere.

[Grovenor]

Colin,

Which track is the single line at the LHS of the photo? I assume its the lower track at the RHS.

Regards

[colin penfold]

Colin,

Which track is the single line at the LHS of the photo? I assume its the lower track at the RHS.

Regards

It continues off scene for a couple of feet and then joins with a turnout. That will be on a different board, different section and isolated from this work.

 

The right hand side yes its the lower line. The upper one is a sand drag.

[Guest]

I hope you get this sorted, Colin. When things are rolling along smoothly and good progress is being made, hitting a snag can be an almighty kick in the teeth. Having read the responses on the other thread and not understood a word of it, I now know why I embraced DCC and frog juicers, big lazy cheat that I am...

Good luck.

[colin penfold]

I hope you get this sorted, Colin. When things are rolling along smoothly and good progress is being made, hitting a snag can be an almighty kick in the teeth. Having read the responses on the other thread and not understood a word of it, I now know why I embraced DCC and frog juicers, big lazy cheat that I am...

Good luck.

That may yet be where I end up Pete. How many frogs can one juicer do?

[Guest]

That may yet be where I end up Pete. How many frogs can one juicer do?

 

No, stick to your guns Colin. I've had no end of grief for cheating! I just like the "fit-and-forget" of the juicers.

FYI...

3 types available,

Mono = 1 frogs

Dual = 2 frogs

Hex = 6 frogs

I also believe there's a (much) cheaper alternative by Gaugemaster, but it relies on a relay rather than electronics to switch power, so it's not as lightning-fast at detecting a short. I'll shut up now as I don't want to turn your thread into a DCC debate. Suffice to say, if I was more clued up with electrics, I'd no doubt have stuck with DC analogue control.

[The Stationmaster]

Coiln I do wonder if it needs a bit of 'back to basics' to sort your problem starting with the mug questions like -

 

1. Are all your gaps actually gaps or there any anywhere which are bridged for some reasons (including the gaps on the sleepers)?

 

2. Are all your +ve and -ve rails in agreement with each other in respect of those shown in your drawing for the crossover?  (e.g. you haven't got a gap missing elsewhere so points are altering the polarity of a particular rail.

 

3. Does the switch actually work properly (i.e. have you tried using another switch instead)?

 

4.Where do your +ve and -ve feeds to the switch come from, are you sure that matches the various rails through the crossover?

[colin penfold]

Thanks Mike.I think you are right. I cant be sure of the sleepers being properly gapped as I bought the track ready made from Marcway. I'd be pretty bummed if that turns out to be the problem. I'm waiting to see if Keith spots anything badly wrong with my wiring plan but yes i have double checked the gaps and polarities. I have a convention of "black at the back" to try to avoid issues. You may be right about the feeds (your q.4) Normally you take the frog feed from the feed at the toe of the point but in this arrangement there are two toes to choose from!

 

The frustrating thing is that as soon as I connect the controller it goes into short circuit mode so i had to disconnect every feed and every return and connect them one at a time till I found the dodgy one. It was the return from the switch I asked about that caused the issue so that's why I asked the specific question. That and the fact that that switch is the only complicated bit and the only bit i haven't successfully done before.

 

Back at work now so i get a few days to leave it in the corner before going back with fresh eyes.

[The Stationmaster]

Colin this might sound daft but would it be worth doing a bit of fiddling with a few lengths of wire with crocodile clips on them and connecting, using said wire, rails at the toe end of the points and through the diamond which you think are the same polarity to see if you get the short while the points are standing normal?

[2ManySpams]

 

20161119_133013.jpg

 

 

That's some seriously long turnout timbers chap. Will you be trimming them down in places? (Or is that the fiddle?)

[colin penfold]

That's some seriously long turnout timbers chap. Will you be trimming them down in places? (Or is that the fiddle?)

Yes they went a bit overboard there Chris didn't they? This is how it arrived in three sections from Marcway. I will indeed be trimming out some of the dead wood once I sort my life out with the electrics! It is the station not the fiddle and there are 4 lengths of plain track to add top left bottom left bottom right and top centre right. Top far right is a sand drag.

[colin penfold]

Colin this might sound daft but would it be worth doing a bit of fiddling with a few lengths of wire with crocodile clips on them and connecting, using said wire, rails at the toe end of the points and through the diamond which you think are the same polarity to see if you get the short while the points are standing normal?

Se what you mean Mike and yes I'll try that. I was also thinking about connecting the track feeds direct to the controller (eliminating the whole panel) and that way i can at least pass the track as OK in terms of gapping of sleepers etc.

 

Fun weekend of testing ahead, methinks.

[2ManySpams]

Yes they went a bit overboard there Chris didn't they? This is how it arrived in three sections from Marcway. I will indeed be trimming out some of the dead wood once I sort my life out with the electrics! It is the station not the fiddle and there are 4 lengths of plain track to add top left bottom left bottom right and top centre right. Top far right is a sand drag.

 

At least the long sleepers gave the formation strength in the post.

[colin penfold]

So the new 4 pole double throw slide switches arrived this week from Amazon

 

www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B007Q9YI1U/ref=ya_aw_oh_bia_dp?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

They seem OK and have almost exactly the same throw as the other switches I was using. They didn't have the same panel mount arrangement so I cannibalized two of the old switches to provide the mounts as follows:

 

 

 

 

Then using the wiring diagram kindly (understatement!) supplied by Keith I wired the twelve tails to each switch. I bought some multicore cable to enable me to use different colours for each connection. Hopefully that will make connection to the layout easier and help prevent mistakes.

 

[colin penfold]

so chaps.

 

I have connected everything up and still have an issue when points are reversed. Keith's drawing seems to suggest a break in the switch rails before the crossing vee. The rails don't look like they touch the vee so i didn't think I needed this break. Centre left in the photo.

 

Any thoughts??