Caledonian engines from RTR loco's, a few ideas to consider

[uax6]

I tend to agree that it is likely that <something> Scottish is going to arrive soonish. Now what that would be I don't know, but would guess that the Caley 0-6-0's are likely, and if Hornby really were clever, they could produce a fair few Scottish 4-4-0's based on the T9 chassis and minor mods to the body, but I doubt that will happen. Now maybe that would be something someone could do with resin printing????

 

Getting back to the wee 4-4-0T I've brought my HR loco book into work with me because there are drawings of their version which is very similar. Now I've just laid the triang chassis of my scrap tank on top of the drawing and if you line up the axle centers the top of the short B12 motor is way above the boiler line. Indeed the max height above the axle center is only 25mm, which means that if you use a Branchlines 50:1 gearbox and a Mashima can the max height will be 18mm above axle centre. Now I've also got a Nellie chassis here (Everyone must have one in their bits box right?). The XO4 motor sits 27mm above axle centres, but with a short B12 motor, it is 25mm. The wheelbase is wrong (32mm against 25mm), but if you dismantle the frames one of the rivet holes that join the sides together falls at about the right place (I've not dismantled mine so whether the hieght is right I don't know) which will make life easier.

 

Hope this helps (and sadly it's now got me really convinced that I could make a HR version now!)

 

 

Andy G

[uax6]

Having just looked at the SE Finecast website, I wonder if you could use their LBS&CR D1 0-4-2T body as a starting point for the CR/HR 0-4-4T classes. Apart from the wheel arrangement they <might> be useable, but I have no details on boiler heights/diameter.

 

Andy G

[Londontram]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LB&SCR_D1_class

 

ok I know is Wikipedia but I find it handy to make quick comparisons if an idea pops into my head, if I think its got merrit then I can look into it deeper but they do the basic's like length and wheel size etc. your right though theres a lot of the Caley in the way the D1 looks

[uax6]

The big shame about the wiki is that you don't get the useful data like boiler pitch! I did look it up, but used a gut feeling that it looks like it could be bashed! ;-}

 

I think I need to increase my Library again!

 

Andy G

[Londontram]

Some dimensions for the 171 0-4-4 T these might help when making comparisons        

 

Boiler max ext diameter...................... 3ft 10in

Frame length..................................... 28ft 9in

Length over buffers........................... 29ft 3 ¾ in

Height from rail level to chimney top. 12ft 2 1/2in

Height from rail to boiler centre line... 6ft 6in

Width over running plate................... 8ft

Width over cab sides......................... 6ft ¼ in

Coupled wheel base.......................... 6ft 4in

Driving wheel dia............................... 5ft

Bogie wheel dia................................. 2ft 6in

[Londontram]

Where is the best place to get cast detail parts like chimneys, domes and back heads in a style to suit Caledonian engines?

[Nick Holliday]

I suggest you have a look at the Caley Coaches website.  They sell a number of the bits and pieces for CR locos, and, although they don't list chimneys and domes, I am sure that they could supply if you knew what you wanted.  I have found them very helpful in the past. It's worth viositing the website anyway because they have availabe to dowmnload detailed histories of many CR classes, as covered by their kits. 

 

If you are prepared to go down the SEFinecast route and butcher one of their LBSC D1 kits, then why waste your money when, for little more than they charge, you can have an accurate CR loco such as the Class 1 4-4-0T or Class 104 0-4-4T or an 812 0-6-0 or a 900 4-4-0, or others of even more exotic lineage. 

[uax6]

I've just ordered the caley chimney from the SEF Caley 0-6-0T £2 each.

 

 

Andy G

[Londontram]

Cheers chaps, have been on both sites and a few more just wondered which was best

[Londontram]

If you are prepared to go down the SEFinecast route and butcher one of their LBSC D1 kits, then why waste your money when, for little more than they charge, you can have an accurate CR loco such as the Class 1 4-4-0T or Class 104 0-4-4T or an 812 0-6-0 or a 900 4-4-0, or others of even more exotic lineage.

 

The original Idea was building on RTR loco chassis and converting bodies as I said I'm no chassis builder I'm the first to realise my limits this takes us away from the original idea into a differant realm. I never planed to "butcher" any kits but explore an idea for using old or cheap RTR loco of Ebay or from my own exicting stock

Edited October 7, 2013 by Londontram

[OFFTHE RAILS]

 

OK I want to run some ideas by you chaps. .......................................

No. one) a Drummond class 66 4-4-0 in rebuilt form cir. 1905 from the Hornby Drummond T9 4-4-0 (the obvious choice for Scottish 4-4-0s)................................

 

Unfortunately the 66 class coupled wheelbase was 9'  and that of the T9 was 10' so the T9 chassis isn't ideal.

The Hornby locodrive 2P has a (scale) 9'6 coupled wheel base which is a bit closer.

Ian

 

[Londontram]

Handy to know cheers. Ive got a 2p in my collection already but just never made the connection "Doh"

 

just had a look in my Caley loco book and I see the 900 class have a 9ft 6in coupled wheel base which is closer so this looks like a route to explore at his stage I'm not to worried about which Caley 4-4-0 I go for but your right 1mm here or there I can live with but 4mm is pushing it a bit to far then again you need to change the splashers for the side rods so your back to major changes unless the T9s small "bridge" between the side rods splashers is only cosmetic and they could be removed wih out the side rods catching the underside of the running plate.... dose that make sense?

Any one who's got a T9 can you have a look for me and see if this can be done

 

(Added) or even the 140 class following on from the 900 class to make room for a bigger boiler the coupled wheel base was increased to 9ft 9in

Edited October 7, 2013 by Londontram

[Legend]

Surely this year or March 2014 Bachmann will announce a Caley 0-6-0 . Really thought when they started modelling Kirriemuir. In the Colletor mag that one was imminent. A Caley blue 0-6-0 to the standard of their SE&CR 0-6-0 what a prospect!

 

Don't forget "oo" works a an outside possibility. Forget. Hornby a the Caley had. No Pacifics and it's. Time they gave the Caley 123 and pug a rest!

[uax6]

 

 

OK I want to run some ideas by you chaps. .......................................

No. one) a Drummond class 66 4-4-0 in rebuilt form cir. 1905 from the Hornby Drummond T9 4-4-0 (the obvious choice for Scottish 4-4-0s)................................

 

Unfortunately the 66 class coupled wheelbase was 9'  and that of the T9 was 10' so the T9 chassis isn't ideal.

The Hornby locodrive 2P has a (scale) 9'6 coupled wheel base which is a bit closer.

Ian

 

 

Well I suppose it depends on how much work you really want to do to recreate the loco. To me 4mm in the coupled wheelbase is insignificant, the end result will not look wrong for being 4mm longer. If you are not good at chassis work (which lets face it is why you are butchering RTR locos in the firstplace) and the loco that you are butchering is more or less there, why go to extra work?

 

On the other hand can you use the 2P chassis with the (shortened) T9 body? If the answer is yes, then you have your answer.

 

Have a look at Ben Alders small Bens... Do they look wrong to you?

 

Andy G

 

(If they do then you just won't like my bodges!)

[Poor Old Bruce]

Just in case nobody else has mentioned it, Dean Sidings do a Killin Pug body etc to convert Smokey Joe.

[Londontram]

Just in case nobody else has mentioned it, Dean Sidings do a Killin Pug body etc to convert Smokey Joe.

yes they do the trouble is £35 will buy me a lot of plasticard I'm also lucky as I already have a supply of 10mm disc wheels and axles in stock from my Tram modeling.

 

A very good point Andy the whole idea of this thread was to make the best of RTR stock if you keep changing this and that for a few mm then your back to scratch building. 

[uax6]

As an Aside do Dean Sidings do anything that would tickle my HR fancy???

 

I've just aquired a BEC LSWR 700 class kit which will get bashed into a Barney. Do we know who holds the moulds for these? Or am i going to have to use it as a master to make my own? Some of these old kits are actually very well thought out and lend themselves to bashing alot.

 

Andy G

[Londontram]

http://www.lanechoice.com/rail/catalogs/DeanSidingsSpring2012.doc

 

http://www.newrailwaymodellers.co.uk/Forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=29318

 

Here's a link Andy to the Dean sidings site and a link to another forum (sorry RMweb) and a chap who built a Killin pug from this kit

[uax6]

Thanks for those links, I notice that they do a Lochgorm Terrier, I've finished mine, although I might see if i can purchase the discs to make the wheels look better than they do now I wonder how heavy these resin kits are? I made sure that my terrier was packed full of lead as they wee thing needs it for pick-up purposes if for nothing else.

 

I'll have a look at the other link at home, as the photos don't appear here at work.

 

Andy G

[Horsetan]

.... I wonder how heavy these resin kits are? ....

 

Not very.

[Londontram]

Here are a few dimensions from in column one the SECR C class 0-6-0 and in the second column dimensions from the CR Drummond 294 class 0-6-0 “Jumbo” with below each imperial measurement an approximate conversion to 4mm for comparison purposes only with a view to possible conversion of the Bachmann C class to the Jumbo. Another possible choice could be to the HR Drummond designed 0-6-0 “Barney” class locomotive as pointed out by RMweb member uax6 (Andy) I don't have the measurements for the Barney my self but I guess Andy has already done this exercise with his reference books

 

                  C class                                                                      Jumbo

 

Loco Wheel base ………. 8ft x 8ft 6in                                   7ft 6in x 8ftt 9in

                                          (32mm x 34mm)                           (30mm x 35mm)

 

Wheel dia………………….5ft 2in                                           5ft

                                            (21mm)                                         (20mm)

 

Boiler dia…………………4ft 5 3/4in                                      4ft 6 1/2in

                                            (18mm)                                            (18.5mm)

 

Boiler rail to center line….7ft 7in                                            7f 3in

                                           (30mm)                                           (29mm)

 

Height rail to chimney..…13ft 1 1/2in (as built)                           12ftt 11in

                                          (52mm)                                           (51.5mm)

 

Length over buffers……..51ft 7 1/4in                                    49ft 10 3/4in

                                          (206mm)                                        (200mm)

 

Tender wheel base………13ft                                                 13ft

                                          (52mm)                                           (52mm)

 

Some of the work required and this is only a general observation at this stage would be to lower the height of the body/running plate by about 1 to 2mm note on the C class the buffers are stepped down slightly with a deeper buffer beam than the Jumbo’s who’s buffers sit more level with the top of the buffer beam and running plate also the C class has a deeper running plate on the tender than the one on the Jumbo you would also have to change the profile of the cut outs in the tender frames. The running plate height is also borne out by the Jumbo having slightly larger splashier’s than the C class including the start of a splashier on the front of the cab side plate not as prominent on the C class also suggesting that the running plate is lower on the Jumbo. The C class appears to be slightly longer in the boiler as seen by the C class smokebox being slightly more forward in relation to the front wheel/splashier than on the Jumbo so the removal of about 2mm from the boiler barrel from just behind the smoke box and moving the smoke box back and also removing about 2mm from the running plate in front of the smoke box would visually correct this. The cab openings would need to be reshaped and the sandboxes relocated to the front splashier with a “winged” front plate to the smoke box also a larger smokebox door. The C class’s front steps would need to be removed as the Jumbo doesn't have any. Early Jumbos had the safety valves on top of the dome relocated to the fire box on later model so this would depend on the period being modeled. A Westinghouse air pump would need mounting in the usual Caledonian position in front of the right hand cab. All these are I stress just general observations as a feasibility study for a possible conversion and the next stage would be to compare the Bachmann model with a set of scale drawings of the Jumbo but I feel this could be one worth pursuing if a C classed could be sourced a cost that would make the conversion viable.  

 

Three photo's No. 1 a Caledonian Jumbo No. 2  a SECR C class and No. 3 a Highland railway Barney

Edited October 28, 2013 by Londontram

[uax6]

Are you looking too deeply at this? If you only take a cursory glance at the C class, all it needs are the bolier fittings changing, a new smokebox door, moving the sandboxes and adding a handrail from footplate to roof of the cab. The tender would need a bit of work to get the destinctive sideframes right. Not many will be able to tell the difference.

 

The 01 resin body comes with the splashers as seperate mouldings so that you can put the sandboxes on or leave them off.

The 01 actually looks like it might be a better bet see here: http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/~zhaa009/bb/locos/01_page/index.htm

 

Although I still think if we can find out who has the old BEC moulds that would be the best way forward for all these pre-groupers!

 

Andy G

[Londontram]

Don't fret Andy its just a paper exercise a the moment I get as much fun out of doing this as I do building loco's and don't forget I'm bed bound at the moment and haven't a lot else to do so this sort of thing helps pass the time, I believe the high cost of the Bachmann C dosnt warrant taking this further at this stage if a C class was to come my way at the right price then I might look again. It's like the Hornby T9s they seem to be going through the roof price wise at the moment but the M7 and J83 for example can be had for a tenner on Ebay.

       Do the Bec mould still exist I wonder? As a long time tram modeler as well I've long mourned the passing of BECs London E1 tram kit still the best by far. 

        I do feel if were going to do this RTR to other loco's we've got to make an effort not just slap a coat of paint on a RTR and hope know one knows better i's like the old war films where you would see a sherman tank with black crosses on posing as a tiger where as with a bit of effort is amazing what can be done for example all the German tanks in Band of Brothers were copies (the Stugs being built on ex British APC chassis)

      What chassis is the Resin 01 designed to run on?

                                                       Regards Steve

[uax6]

It's designed to fit the modern Hornby 0-6-0 chassis, but I did ask if it will fit the old tri-ang one and apparently it will.

 

Tell me about the T9's! The watercart tenders seem to demand silly money on their own, although I'm guessing somewhere there must be lots of tenders and narrowcab (broken) bodies kicking about, I just can't find them!

 

I agree that we really ought to put some effort in, but I don't see that a couple of mm's here and there make <that> much difference in the long run. Certainly the wheel spacing on the BEC kit is the same as the tri-ang jinty, but does that worry me? No very much, I'd rather have something that looks close enough. If I was that worried I'd buy a DJH kit (glup!)... ;-}

 

Andy G

[Ben Alder]

Read this before thinking about a DJH Jumbo - http://maxstaffordskennel.com/2013/10/27/probably-the-worst-kit-in-the-world/

 -(and the comments) I built one onto a pannier chassis, which is a hideous compromise, but am taken with the thought of the Bachmann 0-6-0. This, coupled with the unbuilt kit I have might give a better looker, and runner- the existing one manages to short frequently and is at present in the works awaiting attention. The Barney is an easier option as the pannier chassis is a better fit, although a bit lean on wheel diameter, but it sits a good bit lower than the 812, and getting the motor to fit involved quite a bit of clearance.