Troop trains

[Downer]

There were a lot of troop trains in the 1950s, particularly those bringing soldiers back from stints in Germany, and I'm just wondering how they were made up.  Would they be all third (later, second) class, or were the officers given first class accommodation?  

[The Stationmaster]

There were a lot of troop trains in the 1950s, particularly those bringing soldiers back from stints in Germany, and I'm just wondering how they were made up.  Would they be all third (later, second) class, or were the officers given first class accommodation?  

Normally 1st Class vehicles were provided for officers - if any was available.

[Gwiwer]

But definitely cattle class for the ranks.  Sometimes very long trains indeed though (16 coaches and occasionally more were recorded) and sometimes with a fairly small loco struggling gamely with dust instead of good steam coal.

 

Worth noting that troop (navy) trains between Portsmouth and Waterloo were often electrics though steam-hauled if routed via Eastleigh or if no electric stock could be spared.

[BMacdermott]

Hello Downer

 

I have made something of a loose study of 'troop' trains, but railway documents rarely give formations. It does seem that when officers were involved there was First Class accommodation.

 

One such train that was booked for Friday 14 August 1953 was the 1.45pm Towyn to East Croydon - 20 Officers, 250 Other Ranks. Formation: BCK, 6 TK, BCK.

 

You may not be aware that these trains had their own running numbers. The one above was: 14.W.1. The '14' represents the date of departure; the capital W represents the 'command area'; and the '1' represents the first train of its type/destination. Others that day were 14.W.3 etc.

 

These numbers were sometimes carried on the front of the train/loco.

 

If you see the letter 'F', it represents a leave train (ie Furlough) as opposed to an 'official troop train'. And, as mentioned, many of these to Waterloo were electric trains.

 

I have about five pages of detail of 1950s/1960s trains - if you would like to see it, I'll happily reply to a PM.

 

Brian Macdermott

[Metr0Land]

This thread's reminded me of an 'excuse for everything' that I came across recently.

 

In 'Harrow to Watford' by Middleton Press there's a summer 1956 pic of an SR N Class in BR days with a troop train passing Carpenders Park on LMR.  Loco was working Bushey-Ashford (Kent) but the caption doesn't say if Bushey was true origin or just loco exchange point.  Nevertheless, such troop trains give scope for some off piste workings on the layout.

[Fat Controller]

This thread's reminded me of an 'excuse for everything' that I came across recently.

 

In 'Harrow to Watford' by Middleton Press there's a summer 1956 pic of an SR N Class in BR days with a troop train passing Carpenders Park on LMR.  Loco was working Bushey-Ashford (Kent) but the caption doesn't say if Bushey was true origin or just loco exchange point.  Nevertheless, such troop trains give scope for some off piste workings on the layout.

Indeed. Well into the diesel era, I remember a photo of a Class 40 at Folkestone Central with a rake of blue and grey stock; I'd guess at mid-1970s. Garrison towns, such as Brecon, would presumably have regular troop trains- at other locations, such as Sennybridge, the rail-head was some distance away (Llandovery in this case), and a convoy of 4-tonners would be used to ferry the soldiers to or from the station. I remember standing and saluting (I'd have been about six or seven at the time) as one such convoy rolled past our picnic in the very early 1960s. I was really pleased when someone returned the salute...

[wirey33]

I've seen pictures of a 33/1 and 8TC at Birmingham NS on a troop-ex from Wool in 1989.

 

33's weren't uncommon at Birmingham but 4TCs in NSE Livery certainly were.

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

Aft'noon D,

 

There are nice pics of a couple of troop trains in 'The Okehampton line' by The Irwell Press: 

 

a T9 piloting an 'N' class mogul on a Bude to Tynemouth working nr Okehampton in 1959...nice range of stock amongst the 8 visible

 

also a 33 passing Bridestowe in 1965 heading for Tavistock with Bulleid stock.

 

Dave

[trisonic]

Talking of railways and troops - I remember thinking that "this is getting serious" when I saw the big signs telling the British Armed Forces to report back to base placed  at the the major stations in London prior to the Falklands War. They were only up for a couple of days though...

Anyone else remember them appearing?

 

Best, Pete.

[Fat Controller]

Talking of railways and troops - I remember thinking that "this is getting serious" when I saw the big signs telling the British Armed Forces to report back to base placed  at the the major stations in London prior to the Falklands War. They were only up for a couple of days though...

Anyone else remember them appearing?

 

Best, Pete.

I don't remember the signs, but I do remember a previously gung-ho Terrier with whom I worked, asking how easy it was to get to France..

[Downer]

Thanks for the info, everyone.

[hornbyandbf3fan]

 I hope you don't mind me hijacking this quickly, but the question is kind of the same topic. What would the typical vehicles used in an early 1950's tank train? Obviously you need warflats, but what coaches and I'm guessing there'd need to be box vans and maybe other supporting vehicles?

[TheQ]

By the 1950's you would not have had a tank train as such as all the main battle tanks by then were too big for the loading gauge. However there were/ are trains for lesser vehicles.

 I remember troop trains arriving at Ludgershall in the late 1960's very early seventies as previously mentioned definitely First class for the officers with, as reported above 4 tonners for the troops and baggage, landrovers for some of the SNCO's and officers a with a staff car if there was some senior Officer on board.

In earlier days this even applied to the Horses the officers were carried in horse boxes the other ranks were carried in cattle trucks.

Also back then trains arriving for an exercise on Salisbury plain would be very long with often the original loco and carriages from it's leaving point being headed by a MSWJR or GWR Loco. There are reports of a Great Eastern Loco reaching Wiltshire!

The Q

[hornbyandbf3fan]

Really, I thought a centurion would have fitted on? If it helps, the train will be mainly made up of the warflats Bachmann are producing, so that might help. Thanks for the info too, what kind of wagons for the 4 tonners; would a 1 plank wagon have been suffice?

[petethemole]

The widest tank that would fit within the British loading gauge was the Comet and that overhung the sides of the Warflats.

 

This may be useful although it's of WW2 date.

 

http://www.movcon.org.uk/History/Documents/DID/D-MCHS%200140/D-MCHS%200140.htm

 

 

Pete

[Fat Controller]

Really, I thought a centurion would have fitted on? If it helps, the train will be mainly made up of the warflats Bachmann are producing, so that might help. Thanks for the info too, what kind of wagons for the 4 tonners; would a 1 plank wagon have been suffice?

The 4-tonners would be far too high for a normal flat, so would use a Lowmac or Warwell- even then the supports for the tarpaulin cover would have to be lowered. I suspect they'd normally have gone by road with a driver and mate on each- this is similar to the way long distance movements are made now, except that the majority of troops travel in road coaches, rather than in 4-tonners. I passed one such movement on the M4 this morning- those latest generation  MAN GS trucks are pug-ugly, aren't they?

This link to Huw Millington's site should show you what has to be done to a 4-tonner to bring it within UK loading gauge:-

http://www.flickr.com/photos/23987565@N05/8163593574/in/photolist-droxXm-cc1VDj-f1Yy1H-dsRitC-brR8JV-gc2vFb-aAE2Kw-daBayq-dUkPtA-7MDtcn-9vMpnx-bngC6C-cQgjv7-cQgk33-cQgjg3-cQgjLG-7XvK3G-9Sk5a6-bUDHgH-cc25Mf-cc1ZtL-cc22VQ-bUDLYz-cc1XDd-cc22iQ-9SnX17-cc256Y-cc1Wyb-bUDJJi-cc242Y-cc24os-cc1VV9-bUDK2a-cc23mU-bzUqP2-bzUqKP-fGwAik-brR8Bz-fGrGBm-fFX3dH-bu7SX1-brR8Px-d3frnU-aQXopR-bngA4L-bngAqm-dbwido-dUiipX-7S6VH1-dSS2yy-dTwajd

The lorries shown are of a 1960s design, but the same principle obtains with more recent designs.

[Clive Mortimore]

Really, I thought a centurion would have fitted on? If it helps, the train will be mainly made up of the warflats Bachmann are producing, so that might help. Thanks for the info too, what kind of wagons for the 4 tonners; would a 1 plank wagon have been suffice?

 

Hi Will

 

The Centurion was the first British tank designed around its gun and resulting turret ring not the railway carrying it. It was 11 feet wide. From the early stages of the design it was decided it would be transported by road in the UK so the turret ring diameter was not dictated by the width allowable within the loading gauge. As tank guns increased in power (and size) so did the length of their recoil. To accommodate this, the turret needed to be larger. The turret ring being the bearing surface for the turret, this two needed to be increased, which made the tank wider.

 

The 4 tonners would have been 3 tonners up to the introduction of HGV licences. The army up rated the load carrying capacity of its 3 tonners so that its drivers would be eligible for HGV 3 licences, I think this was in 1970.

 

Small units would not necessarily travel by troop train. When I was with 10 Field Workshops, REME we went on a training camp in Cornwall from Tidworth, summer of 1976. Most the journey was by train, Salisbury to Exeter. Here we changed train to Truro (I think). We travelled in reserved coaches on normal services. I didn't travel back by train, must have done something wrong (again) and was added to the rear party who had to tidy the camp up, load the stores and weapons on the lorries and we came back in said lorries. A day later than the rest.

[hornbyandbf3fan]

The widest tank that would fit within the British loading gauge was the Comet and that overhung the sides of the Warflats.

 

This may be useful although it's of WW2 date.

 

http://www.movcon.org.uk/History/Documents/DID/D-MCHS%200140/D-MCHS%200140.htm

 

 

Pete

Thanks, that was really useful to read!

 

Hi Will

 

The Centurion was the first British tank designed around its gun and resulting turret ring not the railway carrying it. It was 11 feet wide. From the early stages of the design it was decided it would be transported by road in the UK so the turret ring diameter was not dictated by the width allowable within the loading gauge. As tank guns increased in power (and size) so did the length of their recoil. To accommodate this, the turret needed to be larger. The turret ring being the bearing surface for the turret, this two needed to be increased, which made the tank wider.

 

 

Thanks!

[Bernard Lamb]

RMweb will not let me post a link at the moment.

Do a search for The McNaughton Report.

This covers the setting up and operations of troop trains, mainly on the mainland, for bringing troops home from Germany.

It will give you a good background and some idea of the numbers involved.

The online version is text only.

I have an updated version with photos included.

PM me if you have any specific questions.

MOD are very strict regarding copyright so I am unable to post very much on here.

Bernard