Minories Holborn viaduct

[danstercivicman]

Progress after this week...

 

I have used the Scale scenes kits for the platforms.   They take ages, but I have Instant Ink.  They also take a ton of Giant Inkjet Matte Fixative!!

 

I hope you like the progress...

 

There is a entry tunnel/ramp for taxis and there will be an exit ramp near the main station building- my idea is that the ramps lead to street level.  

 

I still haven't figured out where to out the main station building- as in whether to have it raised at street level or down in the cutting!

 

The Scale scene Station canopy is still to be built and I badly need some more locos but the used prices is currently ridiculous!!!!! 

 

 

[danstercivicman]

I should add that the Scalescenes kits are excellent! I have used bits of the scratchbuilders yard parts and the arched bridge to Finnish the bridge and it looks great!

 

They do take time, ink and fixative but the result is great!

 

Now to locos and trains:

 

My plan for this Birmingham Minories is:

 

1) milk train 4-6-0 hauled early morning- 4-6-0 departs to off layout shed for turning

2) station pilot arrives with Ecs semi fast stock

3) local working arrives

4) 4-6-0 returns to take semi fast to london (black five or Ivatt 4mt)

5) dmus arrive as rush hour builds

6) std 4mt tank with suburban set

7) dmus continue to midday

8) as rush hour builds in late afternoon suburban hauled stock using 4p and 4mt

9) semi fast returns from London (4-6-0 black five). Then hauled off scene to carriage sidings

10) dmu's again

11) parcel working

12) Milk tanks collected

 

How's that for a timetable?

 

There is no other goods as per freezers original plans the goods shed would be up the line

[danstercivicman]

Well here is the progress from today's day off!  I have a cold so I haven't been boxing or to the gym so have been busy building scalescene kits!

Edited November 29, 2016 by danstercivicman

[DCB]

The Timetable is starting to look good   However I would suggest...

 

0) milk train early morning  P3-loco  Shunts stock and stands pilot for

1) Workmans Train arrives P3 Pilot shunts stock  to P1 to  release loco which rejoins train

2) local working departs  (workmans stock +loco)

3) dmus arrive as rush hour builds

4)  Ecs semi fast stock arrives  P2 

5) Pilot releases ECS  Loco platform change to P1   ECS loco or pilot off scene to shed.

6) Local Train arrives P3
7) 4-6-0 arrives tender first  to P1 to  take semi fast to london (3 hrs there 3 hrs back + turnround  = 8 hrs?  dep .8.30 arr London 11.30  dep London 2.00 return  5 pm?

8) Pilot releases local train loco  stock to P2

9 Semifast departs

 

 

11)  semi fast arrives from London arr 11.30 (London dep 8.30)  Different 4-6-0 black five).pilot takes  stock to carrage sidings off scene    4-6-0  stands pilot until pilot returns then off scene to turn

 

 dmu's again

Local

 

Parcels  (Not quite sure if it occupies P1 overnight loading and unloading take an appreciable time, but the outgoing would depart before the incoming  so ECS then deoart (4-6-0?)    Followed by Arrival and again dep ECS

Semi ast to London 2 pm stock as before.

 

Normally the incoming loco will follow the stock to the platform end and wait at the signal rather than lurking at the buffer stop

 

Trains ideally need t depart the same platform each weekday, but at a terminus which platform trains arrive at is less important,

Could get quite intense.  5 minute headway and 6 trains per rush hour should be do able.  Simultaneous arrivals and departures always look good.  parallell moves even better, especially slow moving ECS shunting moves in the same direction as arrivals/ departures.    Might need 2 or 3 operators...   And lots of locos..
 

I wonder if the Birmingham Minories was an ex Great Central route to Marylebone which was LMR by the mid 50s?

Edited November 30, 2016 by DavidCBroad

[danstercivicman]

That's good information and I like the timetable!

 

I also like the idea of the station being ex GCR to Birmingham, it could be a failed spur they put in which by the time I'm modelling had become abit run down... it gives perfect opportunity to run my four coach semi fast as hauled by Black Five as I know they used to do that in the final days of steam!

 

I know New Street was the developed around that time and Snow Hill closed along with Dudley, wolverhampton low level, there was also stations like the GNR terminus in Leicester so I guess a small terminus is allowed?

 

Thanks for the feedback

 

I've secured a 4mt 2-6-4t

 

Just need to finish the curved section, station canopies and secure a Black Five, type 2, and a 2mt

[danstercivicman]

Thank you for the timetable suggestions, I am onto second day off and still with a cold (manflu) so can't go boxing again  Hopefully will be back in the ring tomorrow!

 

So here is what I have created- I have part tested it using the limited locos I have (why oh why did I sell my 5MT...) and it seems to work well.

 

The service is very intense at times and this is based purely on the stock I have available now...

 

Please let me know what you think?Timetable for Layout.docx 

[danstercivicman]

I've decided to stop hijacking this thread and have started a layout topic!   Thank you for all the ideas, the layout work has continued, but my days off are at an end- back to work tomorrow!!

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/117470-birmingham-hope-st-br-ex-gcr-minories-style-urban-layout-1965/

[Rivercider]

 

 

At one terminus I know of, and probably others, they even installed water cranes at the buffer end of platforms so that a loco that had just come in could take water while it was waiting to be released and so be ready to move straight to the head of the train it would take out. It all seems to have been a bit like planning F1 pit stops to shave a couple of minutes here and there.     

Exmouth station had four platforms and was provided with water cranes at the stop block end of the platforms as well as further up the platforms,

at its busiest around 30 trains ran each weekday to and from Exeter as well as others to Sidmouth Junction,

 

cheers 

[Satan's Goldfish]

I'm gonna just leave this here for thoughts and comments......

 

 

'Traditional' Minories layout leads into platforms 2, 3, and 4.

 

'loco stub' becomes platform 5 parcels bay. Extra point added to access loco stabling and turning facility.

 

Platform 1 has a loco release to make life easier getting back across to the loco stabling (also creates loop for running around short trains)

 

Freight: Kick back to goods warehouse and open wagons to loco stabling.

 

Somehow need to add points in fiddleyard..........

 

 

 

(designed using track all ready at hand, and use as either BR Blue or 1900 GWR..... not at the same time obviously)

[David C]

Interesting plan. As someone who likes solving the problems associated with shunting, I think your goods provision is pretty minimal. Siting of the goods depot is unlikely as any shunting will block most if not all passenger movements. There's also no provision for road vehicle access. I appreciate space may be lacking, but .....

 

Do your really need the turntable? It occupies a lot of space for no good operation reason. Why not assume the loco depot is a mile or so away and locos are serviced and turned there rather than at the terminus? You don't need a turntable as your locos can turned via the reversing loop. One or two short spurs where the goods shed is would do to hold locos which need to turn round quickly for, say, suburban trains. I would be inclined to ditch the turntable and stick the goods shed and a couple more sidings kickbacking back into the same space occupied.

 

Fiddle yard also needs thinking about, 'cos if that is inadequate, your operating potential will be seriously limited.

 

Well, you did ask for thoughts and comments! Hope mine are of interest.

 

David C

 

David C

[Flying Pig]

I agree with David C's comments above. Light engine movements were a pain for the operating authorities but are a gift for modellers but they might in this case need more fiddle yard/staging than you have. Also, please lose the Peco symmetric three way. I know it's convenient and you're struggling to fit in a double junction, but it just looks wrong on a running line.

 

OTOH sixty years ago you'd probably have been receiving applause for the spaciousness of your design, so tighten the curves and crack on, what do we moderns know?

[Satan's Goldfish]

Comments are good stuff, will see what a re-jig can do. Liking the idea of swapping the loco stub and goods locations, hadn't considered that. And will scratch my head on ditching the 3 way, it adds about an extra foot of layout length not having it and puts the goods siding on a facing turnout rather than trailing.

 

Turntable was more for operational interest, is it more 'realistic' if it could be fitted into the revised stabling area? The ability to turn locos on scene would also simplify the fiddle yard requirements.

[Coder Tim]

I think you could remove the crossover at the throat end of platforms 1&2 by making the diamond there a single slip.

[cromptonnut]

Remember the Minories-ish "Ripper Street" layout had the station on an upper level on some arches, and the tracks went "down" behind a stabling siding.  Could you use a similar trick, putting some stabling/loco sidings "on top" of part of the fiddle yard below?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtO7xbyut8U - you'll see what I mean at about 0:45.

 

Extending the layout to 16ft so you have storage loops is a definite possibility, as well as making it more of an L-shape to accommodate the loops.  Unfortunately loops are quite wasteful as you have all the space in the middle so there might also be potential for a couple of loops and some cassettes for shorter trains?

[DCB]

I'm gonna just leave this here for thoughts and comments......

 

Double Minories.jpg

 

The idea of a terminus with two lines converging just off the platform end is really rare, Exmouth LSWR is one which springs to mind as is Newquay GWR, but  multi platform Termini were very rare on the GWR anyway.   The trackwork just looks too complicated and there are too many bi directional lines for GWR and too much track period for blue diesels

 

If I had that space I would put a helix where the loop is and forget the junction, maybe some loco sidings and Turntable.  Maybe section the Helix for extra storage

 

A lot of the "Fun" of operating a Minories style layout is assuming trains arrive from multiple different places.  Cheltenham St James GWR had a train from Southampton, OK one per day, often an SR loco, the occasional Pannier or Prairie hauled London Express (engines changed at Gloucester) 7 or so locals from Kingham some Honeybourne Auto trains and Gloucester Locals all in a 4 platform terminus with two arrival roads, all of which could have been used for departures.  The junctions for Honeybourne (reverse at Malvern Road) and Kingham were within about a mile and a half from the platform ends as were Malvern Road loco sub shed.   4 minute headways between departures should have been achievable if required.  

 

Added to this some locos off Gloucester Locals departed for Kingham and vice versa, at one time 6 different loco rosters covered the 7 Kingham locals per day,   So you could run a lot of stock on a St James style layout.  and only slightly less on a 3 platform Minories layout. Far more variety than most modellers achieve.

[Siberian Snooper]

The idea of a terminus with two lines converging just off the platform end is really rare, Exmouth LSWR is one which springs to mind as is Newquay GWR, but  multi platform Termini were very rare on the GWR anyway.   The trackwork just looks too complicated and there are too many bi directional lines for GWR and too much track period for blue diesels

 

If I had that space I would put a helix where the loop is and forget the junction, maybe some loco sidings and Turntable.  Maybe section the Helix for extra storage

 

A lot of the "Fun" of operating a Minories style layout is assuming trains arrive from multiple different places.  Cheltenham St James GWR had a train from Southampton, OK one per day, often an SR loco, the occasional Pannier or Prairie hauled London Express (engines changed at Gloucester) 7 or so locals from Kingham some Honeybourne Auto trains and Gloucester Locals all in a 4 platform terminus with two arrival roads, all of which could have been used for departures.  The junctions for Honeybourne (reverse at Malvern Road) and Kingham were within about a mile and a half from the platform ends as were Malvern Road loco sub shed.   4 minute headways between departures should have been achievable if required.  

 

Added to this some locos off Gloucester Locals departed for Kingham and vice versa, at one time 6 different loco rosters covered the 7 Kingham locals per day,   So you could run a lot of stock on a St James style layout.  and only slightly less on a 3 platform Minories layout. Far more variety than most modellers achieve.

 

Brighton has three routes converging at the station, the two coastal routes plus the London line.

[Northroader]

You could bring the loop closer to the platforms and call it "Inverness".

[Satan's Goldfish]

As an exercise on 'what can fit in minimal space' it's surface area is less than an 8x4 board. Part of the design intention was keeping board construction flat, quick, and simple (would be able to go nuts on design if there was an excuse for an extra few feet length or multiple levels).

 

The other location I'd really love to model is Norwich Thorpe, that also is not far from the platform end to the first junction. It's more spread out than what's drawn above, but the number of approach tracks and location of simple loco facilities, etc, was inspired by parts of that. At least there isn't a scissor crossing in the design

 

I think you could remove the crossover at the throat end of platforms 1&2 by making the diamond there a single slip.

it's already a single slip on the side leading into platform 3. Added crossover rather than using a double slip to allow multiple moves.

[cromptonnut]

Brighton has three routes converging at the station, the two coastal routes plus the London line.

 

Littlehampton is also on the end of a triangle similar to the above plan although admittedly with a couple of miles between the station throat and the triangular junction.  In fact, one end of the triangular junction itself splits as below so given the space you could have a lot of fun with trains coming and going to different places.

 

 

East to West is "Coastway", south goes to Littlehampton and the north east is the Arun Valley line.

Edited December 4, 2016 by cromptonnut

[Wherry Lines]

The other location I'd really love to model is Norwich Thorpe

 

 

 

I would love to model this too, but it's about 12' long in n-gauge!

[Pacific231G]

Littlehampton is also on the end of a triangle similar to the above plan although admittedly with a couple of miles between the station throat and the triangular junction.  In fact, one end of the triangular junction itself splits as below so given the space you could have a lot of fun with trains coming and going to different places.

 

Capture.JPG

Littlehampton, particularly in earlier days, strikes me as having considerable potential as a very compact MLT. I don't know whether coastal trains in steam days came in from Brighton and went out towards Chichester and vice versa as they do know but if so that would make for pretty intensive operation.

 

The station site was usefully narrow between two one-sided streets of terraced houses with a small MPD on one side of the platforms and a narrow goods yard on the other. It also had the significant added bonus of a short harbour branch that kicked back from the goods yard usually worked by Terriers.  Apparently before the war there were even ferry services from Littlehampton to Honfleur and the Channel Islands (I've not yet been able to find  out much about that but it gave the Steam Packet pub its name) The port assumed some importance for and after D-Day. The harbour branch closed in the 1960s. In its later years it handled coal and timbers but probably a larger range of cargo in earlier times.

 

There are some aerial photos of it during the 1920s here http://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/asearch?name=Littlehampton&gazetteer=Littlehampton&PARISH=Littlehampton&

COUNTY=West%20Sussex

 

Littlehampton also has a couple of particularly good fish and chip shops- I went to Oscas on Pier Street which had the longest queue and it deserved to  but check Trip Advisor and beware of being mugged by the local Herring Gulls while eating them on the quayside.

Edited December 4, 2016 by Pacific231G

[Satan's Goldfish]

Back again with Ammendment 1.

 

Ignore the Turntable that's drawn on, that's just a loco stabling stub.....

 

Scenically it's not in a cutting like the usual Minories but is made to feel that way by having large buildings all along the rear.

 

Solution for the storage yard: Traverser. Even the inner radius 1 track should hold a 'large' engine and 3x mk2s. (I know a lot of modern stock doesn't do R1, but I've got another layout for them anyway. Besides, this would be code 100 for old Triang and Lima items that are not worth converting to code 75).

 

Option for a freight only line at the rear heading back out to the traverser, but design isn't right for that at the moment and probably easier if the freight are all sidings anyway.

 

Ref the symmetrical 3 way; just spotted upon finishing the drawing that the trailing crossover it creates for the line to the tunnel could be moved into the tunnel mouth to be able to remove the 3 way. This may also create better use of space for the trailing turnout that access the goods yard.

 

 

 

 

 

Nice Triangle Nut! if only they didn't take up so much space.....

[Pacific231G]

Back again with Ammendment 1.

 

Ignore the Turntable that's drawn on, that's just a loco stabling stub.....

 

Scenically it's not in a cutting like the usual Minories but is made to feel that way by having large buildings all along the rear.

 

Solution for the storage yard: Traverser. Even the inner radius 1 track should hold a 'large' engine and 3x mk2s. (I know a lot of modern stock doesn't do R1, but I've got another layout for them anyway. Besides, this would be code 100 for old Triang and Lima items that are not worth converting to code 75).

 

Option for a freight only line at the rear heading back out to the traverser, but design isn't right for that at the moment and probably easier if the freight are all sidings anyway.

 

Ref the symmetrical 3 way; just spotted upon finishing the drawing that the trailing crossover it creates for the line to the tunnel could be moved into the tunnel mouth to be able to remove the 3 way. This may also create better use of space for the trailing turnout that access the goods yard.

 

Double Minories AL1.jpg

 

 

 

 

Nice Triangle Nut! if only they didn't take up so much space.....

The goods facilities look a lot better with this plan and I can envisage one of those multi-storey goods depots like the one that used to be just outside Paddington

.

I hope i'm not being too negative but, unless you've got it to work well on another layout, I'd be very dubious about using curved fiddle yard sidings, especially with fairly tight radii. We tried it on an L shaped group layout a few years ago and, despite very precise track laying (not by me!), it was a complete disaster with longer passenger trains derailing first time every time .That fiddle yard used points to access a fan of sidings and I suspect  a 180⁰ curved traverser would be even trickier. In the end we went for a more conventional U.

Edited December 4, 2016 by Pacific231G

[Satan's Goldfish]

Useful info ref curved fiddleyards, duly noted, dealt with straight traversers but not curved. There's enough space for a pair of set track points on the tunnel line, it's the bridge line that's more of an issue.

[imt]

I like the plan, and the comment about Inverness rang bells with me.  I tried that, and got a long way with it BUT plenty of people said what I am about to say to you, and in the end I agreed.  Very nice, how many operators are there going to be, are there really going to be simultaneous movements?  How is your wiring and electronics design, can you make slow and stop circuits so you can drive one set out and let the incoming set look after itself? Could you really use all that track?

 

I wonder about P1.  It can only serve the anti-clockwise loop and despite its run round facilities (and I agree some variation of movements is entertaining) seems a little lost. Stock could be pulled out and propelled into P2/3 by a pilot, blocking the anti-clockwise circuit whilst you did that of course. BUT the more easily used upper part of the station feeds to this lower less usable part.

 

You will be dependent upon maintaining a balance between the two halves Drawing/propelling by a pilot will be a feature of this layout unless you are using a lot of EMUs/DMUs.

 

Can I suggest you should think about whether you want a dumb-bell.  There is some good advice about not having curved fiddle yards.  You could remove P1 and remove the dumb-bell and (if there is space of course) put a standard fiddle yard on the end of the first part of the curve making an L shape.