Minories Holborn viaduct

[ian]

What a wonderful shunter. Quirky doesn't even begin to describe it.

[Karhedron]

What a wonderful shunter. Quirky doesn't even begin to describe it.

Express Dairies had others over the years at different locations, often equally characterful.

 

 

[danstercivicman]

Awesome information

 

Thankfully I have a fifty foot stanier full brake! I had a Stoce R from Dapol but it ran really badly so it was sold!

[Welly]

Imagine the smell of sour milk from spillages at Vauxhall station!

 

The yellow shunter in post 177 has a rather odd set of blinkers either side of it's yellow blinker.

[cromptonnut]

The yellow shunter is a Ruston 165DM, and it's at Chard Junction.  It now resides on the Mid Suffolk Light Railway.

 

I believe the black things either side of the roof mounted light are simply 'blinkers' to stop the light distracting the passing trains. It was required as the yard is paved over and lorries would use that area for loading as well.

 

It's early 80s there as it's shunting the TMV milk tankers which didn't last long and were not used much before it closed to rail traffic.  Incidentally, the factory is now closed and being demolished to make room for a housing development. 

 

Frank Long used to be one of the drivers of the shunter, and he rose to fame a couple of years ago when he appeared on "Deal or No Deal" and his west country humour became a bit of a legend on the show.

[Joseph_Pestell]

That's a great set of photos of the milk trains - main line locos with a short formation ideal for space-starved layouts.

[Joseph_Pestell]

The yellow shunter is a Ruston 165DM, and it's at Chard Junction.  It now resides on the Mid Suffolk Light Railway.

 

I believe the black things either side of the roof mounted light are simply 'blinkers' to stop the light distracting the passing trains. It was required as the yard is paved over and lorries would use that area for loading as well.

 

It's early 80s there as it's shunting the TMV milk tankers which didn't last long and were not used much before it closed to rail traffic.  Incidentally, the factory is now closed and being demolished to make room for a housing development. 

 

Frank Long used to be one of the drivers of the shunter, and he rose to fame a couple of years ago when he appeared on "Deal or No Deal" and his west country humour became a bit of a legend on the show.

 

Not familiar with those tankers. All new or new tanks on old underframes? If the latter, surely a good opportunity for someone.

[bennyboy]

Not familiar with those tankers. All new or new tanks on old underframes? If the latter, surely a good opportunity for someone.

 

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/mmbmilk

 

"Unexpectedly the Milk Marketing Board introduced completely refurbished milk wagons in 1981. They selected 40 ex 6-wheel milk tanks & 26 ex 4-wheel class B tank wagon frames with barrels from earlier milk wagons and clad them in stainless steel. They were an emergency measure in case of problems with road transport and were rarely, if ever, used."

[cromptonnut]

Not familiar with those tankers. All new or new tanks on old underframes? If the latter, surely a good opportunity for someone.

 

See bennyboy's link above from the Paul Bartlett site.

 

It's a bit of an oddball wagon which saw very little use hence there isn't a great deal out there about them apart from pictures of them sitting in sidings.

 

Back in the day Hornby did one of their 4 wheel oil tanks in a chrome livery as a TRV  - R133 confusingly also used for a steam loco - quite rare, and I only have one.    http://www.hattons.co.uk/219711/Hornby_R133_SD_Tank_Wagon_Milk_Marketing_Board_Pre_owned_damage_to_paintwork_missing_one_cou/StockDetail.aspx

 

There's a bit more detail here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_railway_milk_trains#Milk_train_in_popular_usage

 

After loss of the Cornish and Welsh contracts in 1981, it was also the last year that operational use was made of milk tank wagons in the United Kingdom. Using refurbished two- and three-axle wagons, the MMB had newly manufactured 5 feet 6 inches (1.68 m) diameter aluminium milk tanks chain-anchored to the chassis. Painted in MMB blue, they were mounted on a black chassis with black chains, all white lettering and orange axle-box covers. Given the TOPS code TRV, they operated on the short-lived Chard Junction to Stowmarket service for less than a year. After the contract was cancelled, the MMB kept the refurbished milk tank wagons in store on their own premises to overcome any difficulties in road transport, before disposing of the entire fleet five years later.

 

I've suggested it to next year's wishlist poll. It does have a fairly limited area of interest so I can't see it necessarily being a very popular pick. 

[danstercivicman]

Did they wash the tankers at the bottling plants or just run them back empty to the milk plant where the milk cane from?

[danstercivicman]

Another question- would s minories type layout have handled fish? I got the sixty small plans book by CJ Freezer- explains the background and has some great other plans

[Joseph_Pestell]

See bennyboy's link above from the Paul Bartlett site.

 

It's a bit of an oddball wagon which saw very little use hence there isn't a great deal out there about them apart from pictures of them sitting in sidings.

 

Back in the day Hornby did one of their 4 wheel oil tanks in a chrome livery as a TRV  - R133 confusingly also used for a steam loco - quite rare, and I only have one.    http://www.hattons.co.uk/219711/Hornby_R133_SD_Tank_Wagon_Milk_Marketing_Board_Pre_owned_damage_to_paintwork_missing_one_cou/StockDetail.aspx

 

There's a bit more detail here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_railway_milk_trains#Milk_train_in_popular_usage

 

 

I've suggested it to next year's wishlist poll. It does have a fairly limited area of interest so I can't see it necessarily being a very popular pick. 

 

Thanks. I take your point that they have rather limited appeal due to the short time that they were running and limited route. But it would be quite easy for someone to resin cast the tanks for people to mount on existing underframes from Dapol etc.

[t-b-g]

Another question- would s minories type layout have handled fish? I got the sixty small plans book by CJ Freezer- explains the background and has some great other plans

 

Not a problem. In many cases, fish vans were attached to passenger trains, as it was important to get the cargo there as quickly as possible.

 

My modified design has an extra siding serving a loading dock and the plan is that this will be served by a train of GCR fish vans, presently half built but "on hold" while another project is under way.

[Flying Pig]

Another question- would s minories type layout have handled fish? I got the sixty small plans book by CJ Freezer- explains the background and has some great other plans

Yes, at one time, probably as tail traffic on passenger trains. Many stations had dedicated roads for the fish dock (I have my eye on CJF's loco spur), but you could use an empty platform road just as well and shunt the vans up to the buffers.

 

I'm not sure when this sort of traffic ended, but a couple of contemporary references I found suggest you may just have scraped in:

 

http://archive.commercialmotor.com/article/8th-may-1964/23/reorganization-plans-for-fish-traffic

 

http://www.railuk.info/timeline/gettimelinearticle.php?id=116&item=

Edited October 22, 2016 by Flying Pig

[danstercivicman]

Excellent articles! What happened to all those fish..... my nan Was born bred and lived in Lowestoft and said the docks were heaving! I will definitely include som form of fish traffic on my minories

Edited October 22, 2016 by danstercivicman

[t-b-g]

This is a diagram of the adapted track layout to include a centre "holding" road which is used for the arrival/departure of fish/parcels trains and a loading dock, as used on my Mansfield Market Place project.

 

[t-b-g]

I would just add that after looking back over the thread, there was a mention by me of some O gauge urges.

 

Well, it is happening. Two GCR locos started and plans being drawn up for a 7mm scale GCR period, based on (you've guessed it), Minories!

 

It will be almost a 7mm version of the "Mansfield Market Place, with the centre road and two platforms, although the pointwork will be altered to allow arrivals and departures from both platforms. The use of 3 link couplings will mean that the dock will be moved to the other side and may well become a 2 road goods yard rather than a dedicated fish/parcels dock.

 

I want to try something different and to see if an O gauge double track terminus, with 4-6-0 locos and 5 bogie carriages, can be built in 16' x 2'6". So far, the plans suggest that it can.

 

The basic plan is to have an O gauge mini "Buckingham", with some of the EM locos and trains re-created in 7mm scale.

[clecklewyke]

Yes, at one time, probably as tail traffic on passenger trains. Many stations had dedicated roads for the fish dock (I have my eye on CJF's loco spur), but you could use an empty platform road just as well and shunt the vans up to the buffers.

 

I'm not sure when this sort of traffic ended, but a couple of contemporary references I found suggest you may just have scraped in:

 

http://archive.commercialmotor.com/article/8th-may-1964/23/reorganization-plans-for-fish-traffic

 

http://www.railuk.info/timeline/gettimelinearticle.php?id=116&item=

 

Fish vans were a common form of "tail" traffic but there were also full trains of fish vans from the larger fish ports (e.g. Hull, Grimsby, Aberdeen) to major cities so I have a fish train in the timetable of Bradford North Western. This is imagined as a Hull - Manchester train, shedding vans at Leeds and Bradford and is mainly an excuse for a K3 or B1 on an otherwise mainly LMR layout. I have very fond memories of long strings of fish vans behind a K3 hammering through Hessle - always a "double-pegger".

 

This traffic certainly carried on until the 1960s but was lost to the roads by the 1980s and the modern roller-bearing, "Blue Spot" vans converted for parcels traffic.

 

Ian

Edited October 22, 2016 by clecklewyke

[Budgie]

This is a diagram of the adapted track layout to include a centre "holding" road which is used for the arrival/departure of fish/parcels trains and a loading dock, as used on my Mansfield Market Place project.

 

Control Panels.jpg

I thought the idea of Minories was that you could access all platforms from both the up and the down lines. So crossover 7 is in the wrong place: it wants moving left so it is before points 5.

[t-b-g]

I thought the idea of Minories was that you could access all platforms from both the up and the down lines. So crossover 7 is in the wrong place: it wants moving left so it is before points 5.

 

It was a deliberate departure from the CJF plan. You can't say that the crossover is wrong. Just different!

 

My idea was to go back to the days when some stations had an arrival and a departure "side". All arrivals (apart from on the centre road) had to go into Platform 1. there were 4 different ways of dealing with any arrival. You could just put another train loco on the back and depart it, you could shunt it to the centre road or to Platform 3 to clear Platform 1 for another arrival, you could pull the stock out with the pilot to release the trapped loco and then put the stock back into platform one or you could take it to the "offstage" carriage sidings with the pilot.

 

As Platform 3 was the "departure" side most of the moves involved shunting the stock there although in the "rush hour" some local services just got another loco on the back and went out as Platform 3 was occupied.

 

It made for interesting operation, although the 7mm version is as you have said, with scope to arrive or depart from any of the three roads. It will make for a good comparison as to which works better.

 

I always find that you can draw layouts until you run out of paper but until you build it and try moves out for real, you can never tell how satisfying it is going to be to operate.

[Karhedron]

Did they wash the tankers at the bottling plants or just run them back empty to the milk plant where the milk cane from?

I believe they were cleaned out at the country end before filling. I know of a couple of dairies where reference was made to cleaning procedures. Of course that does not necessarily mean they were not washed at the city end too, just that I have not found mention of it. I know from the amount of times my kids have spilt milk that it is a lot easier to clean up while it is still fresh.

[cromptonnut]

Thanks. I take your point that they have rather limited appeal due to the short time that they were running and limited route. But it would be quite easy for someone to resin cast the tanks for people to mount on existing underframes from Dapol etc.

 

If I could figure out 3D printing I would have already done so   Unfortunately as much as I've tried, I just can't get the CAD to do what I want which is strange considering I'm used to working in 3D design in another digital environment.

[Izzy]

I often think that in Minories CJF designed a layout that is almost universal in application in respect of the basic concept even if it isn't followed in exact detail as far as the actual track plan goes, as it seems able to transend era and be buildable in most scales. Mansfield Market Place (I don't know if such a station existed so forgive) rather reminds me of a slightly simpler Sheffield Victoria, the track plan of which has been posted somewhere here on RMweb (but I can't find it at the mo), with separate arrival and departure platforms and central storage road.

 

Izzy

[t-b-g]

I often think that in Minories CJF designed a layout that is almost universal in application in respect of the basic concept even if it isn't followed in exact detail as far as the actual track plan goes, as it seems able to transend era and be buildable in most scales. Mansfield Market Place (I don't know if such a station existed so forgive) rather reminds me of a slightly simpler Sheffield Victoria, the track plan of which has been posted somewhere here on RMweb (but I can't find it at the mo), with separate arrival and departure platforms and central storage road.

 

Izzy

 

No such real place. The inspiration for the centre road arrangement, the as yet unfinished buildings and also the unusual platform numbering came from the LD&ECR terminus at Chesterfield Market Place. That had 4 platforms numbered 1,2,4 and 5. Road 3 in that case was the centre road, as is road 2 on my layout.

 

That company did think about a line to Mansfield and as there was already a Mansfield Midland and a Mansfield Central in real life, it seemed a good name to use.

 

You are quite right, Minories was a superb bit of layout design. Adaptable to many circumstances and able to take the odd tweak without spoiling the concept too much. 

[Satan's Goldfish]

There's many a minories inspired plan rattling around my head waiting to get built, including a Swiss HOm version maybe one day in the future (does 2 carriages necessitate a layout or do i need an engine as well? )

 

One of my personal observations for this plan though still concerns the fiddle yard and turning trains around at that end, in my mind it still really needs to be either a turntable FY or a balloon loop for a minimum amount of 'big hand' shunting. Turntable is good for minimum length layout and short trains (but you do need enough width to be able to turn it still) and balloon loop is still my favoured options for slightly longer trains, squeezing in a junction, and some 'on scene' running like my plans a couple of pages ago..... which i'm still not fully happy with and do tinker on occasionally. Interestingly though, as with Mansfield Market Place above, one of my prefered back of envelope scribbles has a centre road for freight arrival and a couple of sidings/bays where the loco spur should be for freight loading/unloading.