RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted January 3, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 3, 2014 Is the plan that Heathrow could be accessed from the ex-LSWR route, so reinstating the triangle at Slough would give a direct(ish) route from Reading to Heathrow? I'd often wondered about the possibility of extending the Piccadilly line from Uxbridge via Slough & Windsor to Heathrow (i.e. creating a giant loop). The Slough to Windsor branch departs from the fast line side of Slough station and even if you were able to put back the western facing curve and GSJ it, you would still miss out Slough station itself, then there is the considerable cost of tunnelling under Windsor. For western access its far easier and cheaper to build a totally new route from T5 out to Iver where building a decent GSJ junction with the relief lines is easy. As for the tubes, the further out you go, the less suited a tube line becomes with their smaller carriages and (with respects to long established commuter lines) shorter trains. There also is the political issue in that the Underground is run by TfL and accountable to the Mayor and GLA only. TfL have no jurisdiction over anywhere outside the GLA boundary and perhaps more importantly get no monies from council tax payers (unlike those within who pay a surcharge for the GLA). This is one of the reasons the Croxley rail link has taken so long, it has had to be promoted by the Hertfeordshire CC - the GLA / TfL have no powers to make it happen (though they can contribute financially - but that brings accusations of them subsiding residents who don't contribute to their revenues) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 3, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 3, 2014 On state interference, hasn't Network Rail now been reclassified as a government entity and lost that odd status as a company limited by guarantee which was effectively just a way of trying to keep their debt off the government balance sheet? The debt has now been put onto the Govt's books as I understand things but the status of NR is not changed and that was what was said in answer to a question in Parliament (for what that is worth!). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted January 3, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 3, 2014 Thanks for the info, interesting. I shudder to think what the true national debt figure is if all these accounting tricks are added up and things like PFI liabilities added in, scary. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted January 3, 2014 Author Share Posted January 3, 2014 Thanks for the info, interesting. I shudder to think what the true national debt figure is if all these accounting tricks are added up and things like PFI liabilities added in, scary. I think it is around a cool £1Trillion and rising, however if Fukushima goes bang debt will cease to be an issue! XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted January 4, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 4, 2014 I was part of Thames Valley Chamber of Commerce when it was being consulted on various options for rail access to Heathrow from the West. A new branch down from Iver is indeed the best of the offical options which can be operated as an extension of Heathrow Express to T5. The estimated cost and time to complete seemed unneccesarily high to me. Plans to create a western access via Staines and Datchet (LSW) create a lot of opposition from locals due to the traffic problems they fear will be created due to the numerous level crossings. We also had a local keen to promote a very complex scheme which involved an underground link between the two stations at Windsor. My own view is that there should be a major parkway/interchange at Iver with platforms on both the GWML and a branch of HS2 and then a dedicated light rail connection/people mover from there to each of the terminals. That has far wider benefits to the Thames Valley, not just airport users, and relieves pressure on HS2 at Old Oak Common and, above all, Euston. The cost of an HS2 branch to Iver could largely be met by the savings it would allow at Euston and commercial development. Building the rail interchange away from the current airport gives greater flexibility in terms of any development of future runways/terminals. Perhaps somebody modelling in T scale could do a model of this proposal? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher125 Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 My own view is that there should be a major parkway/interchange at Iver with platforms on both the GWML and a branch of HS2 and then a dedicated light rail connection/people mover from there to each of the terminals. That has far wider benefits to the Thames Valley, not just airport users, and relieves pressure on HS2 at Old Oak Common and, above all, Euston. The cost of an HS2 branch to Iver could largely be met by the savings it would allow at Euston and commercial development. Building the rail interchange away from the current airport gives greater flexibility in terms of any development of future runways/terminals. I can't see Iver producing savings at Euston - HS2 is currently getting an interchange with Great Western services at both Old Oak Common (which has no need for relief) and Heathrow post-western access. While Iver may be more convenient than those two for some, it will have next to no impact on demand at Euston. Besides, given the dubious case for the HS2 Heathrow branch seems more based on politics than economics, it has to serve Heathrow directly or it simply won't happen - especially as the airport will be expected to stump up some of the cash. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenman Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Besides, given the dubious case for the HS2 Heathrow branch seems more based on politics than economics, it has to serve Heathrow directly or it simply won't happen - especially as the airport will be expected to stump up some of the cash. I agree with you; and I think it strange that most people refer to "a Heathrow station" in the singular. If there's only going to be one station to serve the airport (ie, at either 1,2,3, or 4, or 5), then, whichever terminal hosts it, the majority of Heathrow passengers will still have to get off it and then board some sort of shuttle to take them to their terminal. Since the economics of a Heathrow branch/station seem pretty marginal anyway, when you take into account the fact that so many passengers will find it gives them exactly the same sort of journey as if they had changed at Old Oak Common, I do wonder why so many people seem to think a Heathrow station is of vital importance. Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 ...... For western access its far easier and cheaper to build a totally new route from T5 out to Iver where building a decent GSJ junction with the relief lines is easy. I was part of Thames Valley Chamber of Commerce when it was being consulted on various options for rail access to Heathrow from the West. A new branch down from Iver is indeed the best of the offical options which can be operated as an extension of Heathrow Express to T5. The Western Rail Access to Heathrow (WRAtH) project is more than just a proposal and is a definite programme now that it has been accepted for inclusion in NR's CP5. Government funding has been approved in principle and planning work is underway. They were supposed to be announcing the final proposed route just before Christmas, but as usual there hasn't been any news yet. Hopefully there will be something in the next few weeks. I suspect the final go ahead will depend to some degree on the runway decision for London, but as Heathrow is included in 2 of the 3 initial front running solutions being put forward by the Davies Commission, it looks a reasonably safe bet at this point in time. What service runs on this route and by what provider is yet to be decided. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 Could this talk of HS rail to LHR bring the final end to the Boris Island airport plan? After all, why pend billions on such a link when it will become redundant within a few years if Boris Island gets approved? Oh, I forgot, BR are good at that sort of thing (Waterloo International springs to mind).... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 Since any work on the HS2 Heathrow link was put on hold pending the Davies Commission I'm a little surprised that the same hasn't happened with WRAtH. However this may be because in the rather unlikely event of Heathrow being closed as an airport it would be redeveloped as a new urban area, which wouldn't need a high speed link but would benefit from good conventional rail links in all directions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForestPines Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 (edited) Could this talk of HS rail to LHR bring the final end to the Boris Island airport plan? After all, why pend billions on such a link when it will become redundant within a few years if Boris Island gets approved? Oh, I forgot, BR are good at that sort of thing (Waterloo International springs to mind).... The only thing that will stop Boris Island being talked up is Boris leaving his part-time mayoral job in the hope of replacing Dave in Downing St. However since Boris Island has been on the planning radar for 40 years now, you can understand people planning other infrastructure projects not wanting to assume anything about its completion... Edit: it's now 44 years since it was announced that the third London airport was going to be in the Thames Estuary; those plans also included a new deep-water Port of London and a southern bypassed for Southend. That was instead of a new airport near Aylesbury which also didn't get built. Edited January 5, 2014 by ForestPines 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 5, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 5, 2014 Could this talk of HS rail to LHR bring the final end to the Boris Island airport plan? After all, why pend billions on such a link when it will become redundant within a few years if Boris Island gets approved? Oh, I forgot, BR are good at that sort of thing (Waterloo International springs to mind).... Waterloo International was closed down by private 'enterprise' rather than BR - the original plan was to retain it for services after St Pancras opened as the latter lacked (and still lacks) the necessary accommodation and (train handling) capacity to cope with what was envisaged as the ultimate Eurostar level of service. Just that plans were changed posy privatisation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted January 5, 2014 Author Share Posted January 5, 2014 Talking to an informed source yesterday it appears that the Marlow Branch debacle might have a potential solution! I understand that a 3 car Class 377 will fit into Marlow platform at Bourne End if the buffers stops are modified slightly as TPWS will stop any potential accidents. It should be remembered that 3 car Class 117 traversed the branch in the past and I travelled on the GWR liveried one on the branch in the early 1990's when there was an event at Bourne End to celebrate? the arrival of the Turbos. XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted March 27, 2014 Author Share Posted March 27, 2014 (edited) CrossRail is going onto Reading at last someone on high has made a good decision! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-26762551 However at 2 trains an hour which is no faster than the current service it has hardly a metro service. There needs to be six tracks from Reading to London and then we can have a proper service! XF Edited March 27, 2014 by Xerces Fobe2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted April 1, 2014 Author Share Posted April 1, 2014 I currently travel from Maidenhead to Burnham every day and I have noticed how many more HST's are travelling a t@ 50mph with green aspects ahead. This is very noticeable inbound to London in the morning and vice-versa in the evenings. There are not any PW restrictions or similar I just think that it is thew sheer weight of traffic. So with the extra traffic which CrossRail will bring just how fast is the service to London going to be in reality and will we see lots of 50 InEP's meandering along the GWML? It needs to be a six track railway from Reading to London if the CrossRail investment is going to be fully realised! XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DY444 Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 I currently travel from Maidenhead to Burnham every day and I have noticed how many more HST's are travelling a t@ 50mph with green aspects ahead. This is very noticeable inbound to London in the morning and vice-versa in the evenings. There are not any PW restrictions or similar I just think that it is thew sheer weight of traffic. So with the extra traffic which CrossRail will bring just how fast is the service to London going to be in reality and will we see lots of 50 InEP's meandering along the GWML? It needs to be a six track railway from Reading to London if the CrossRail investment is going to be fully realised! XF As FGW HSTs are fitted with DAS it *could* just be the drivers proceeding at the speeds being shown by that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
black and decker boy Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 I currently travel from Maidenhead to Burnham every day and I have noticed how many more HST's are travelling a t@ 50mph with green aspects ahead. This is very noticeable inbound to London in the morning and vice-versa in the evenings. There are not any PW restrictions or similar I just think that it is thew sheer weight of traffic. So with the extra traffic which CrossRail will bring just how fast is the service to London going to be in reality and will we see lots of 50 InEP's meandering along the GWML? It needs to be a six track railway from Reading to London if the CrossRail investment is going to be fully realised! XF From an exert of a NR plan, the track can still take more trains per hour than the stations and no-one is ever going to add another 2 tracks through some ofthhighest landvalues in the UK. ERTMS and the OHLE will themselves add capacity as will longer trains. Not sure that Crossrail is taking away any fastline capacity, just lots on the relief but not fully up to speed on that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS1977 Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 I'm not sure even if Crossrail will take up capacity on the relief now it's going out to Reading - won't it just replace the existing Reading-Paddington stoppers? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted April 3, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 3, 2014 I'm not sure even if Crossrail will take up capacity on the relief now it's going out to Reading - won't it just replace the existing Reading-Paddington stoppers? Presumably that will be the case, the Relief Lines capacity problem will come further east but hopefully the hourly freight path in each direction will remain protected. The Mains east of Airport Junction have been running in excess of theoretical capacity during certain times of the day for well over a decade with no major problems. As far as trains running slowly on the Mains around Burnham are concerned there has been some major relaying and blanketing between Farnham Road and Slough West on the Up Main recently and the Up Main signals are somewhat unevenly spaced between Burnham and Slough which can cause a bit of caution when Drivers can see the next one in advance showing a restrictive aspect just as the distance between signals reduces. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 Presumably, if some of the stopping services run through on Cross-Rail, rather than terminating at Paddington, then this will free up capacity for terminating long-distance services at Paddington. If this is the case, then the 'slow-running' of such services will presumably cease. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 From an exert of a NR plan, the track can still take more trains per hour than the stations and no-one is ever going to add another 2 tracks through some ofthhighest landvalues in the UK. ERTMS and the OHLE will themselves add capacity as will longer trains. Not sure that Crossrail is taking away any fastline capacity, just lots on the relief but not fully up to speed on that. Doesn't really need 6 tracking the whole way to Reading as the line gets progressively quieter the further out you go as you lose local/Airport services - it might at some point need it from Airport Jcn inwards though, especially if traffic keeps increasing and continuing to run HEx as well as Crossrail is seen as a desirable thing. Except for widening Wharncliffe Viaduct and (what I suspect would be easiest to accomplish as) a bored tunnel for the fast lines from West Ealing through to Old Oak I reckon 6 tracking could easily be accomplished on existing railway land. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oakydoke Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 I'm not sure even if Crossrail will take up capacity on the relief now it's going out to Reading - won't it just replace the existing Reading-Paddington stoppers? The plan all along has been that Crossrail replaces all the stoppers, leaving only 2 limited stop non-Crossrail trains to Paddington per hour, plus the peak only services from Henley and Bourne End to Paddington (1tph each). Regarding capacity east of Airport Junction, a lot will hinge on what happens to HEX once the access agreement expires in 2024. NR covets the 4 paths per hour they take up on the fast lines and after that date would like these paths to be reallocated to addition fasts to Reading and beyond, with HEX more than likely being replaced with additional Crossrail services on the Relief lines. What Heathrow Airport Ltd's future position on this will be once Crossrail is up and running and has already taken over the Connect services, is anybody's guess. Currently it is thought that they will want to defend and extend the contract term on their HEX services. Of course the whole issue may be turned upside down on its head, if a decision is made to expand Heathrow with new runways, as the current and planned rail provision will be totally inadequate in those circumstances. Presumably, if some of the stopping services run through on Cross-Rail, rather than terminating at Paddington.... On the current plans, all the stopping services from the west will be provided by Crossrail and will carry on through the central section. The exception being the 2tph limited stop services and the 2tph peak only services from Henley and Bourne End. So yes, there will be extra platform capacity at Paddington, but I don't know how it is planned to be utilised. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogauge83A Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 A link to close ups of part of the Windhoff electrification MPV at Taunton today. this was the five vehicle section dealing with the piling work Nos. (99 70) 9131 001 to 005 http://antony-christie.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/windhoff-great-western-electrification.html 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted May 7, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 7, 2014 A link to close ups of part of the Windhoff electrification MPV at Taunton today. this was the five vehicle section dealing with the piling work Nos. (99 70) 9131 001 to 005 http://antony-christie.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/windhoff-great-western-electrification.html Crrrikey - it's actually arrived at last! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Crrrikey - it's actually arrived at last! There's another waiting at Dolland's Moor, or at least there was this morning. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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