Point Rodding & Signalling Plan

[Bobartist]

Hi All, 

 

I've put together a point rodding and signal layout plan for my new layout. It's based quite closely on Maghull station on the Liverpool - Preston line in the 1950's. The platforms sit between the level crossing and the yard entrance. I really knew very little about point rodding layouts and linkages etc. before joining the RM Web so I've gratefully gleaned much information from poring over the many previous threads here, over the last few weeks. Hopefully, the plan is fairly self-explanatory but a few questions remain:-

 

1. There was a ground frame at Maghull when the long-departed goods yard existed at roughly the point I've positioned it. I assume it's because of the distance from the signal box (SB) to the farthest exit from the yard to the main line (about 450 yards). Would it be necessary to run a rod from the SB to the GF to release it, or could this be achieved by a release key to be collected by yard staff from the SB?

 

2. If the Distant Ground Signal (GS) in the yard is correct, would this have been operated from the SB or GF ? It was about 250 yards from the SB.

 

3. From the plan it is clear that there are two crossings from the up to down main and  the track into the bay, with a trap point, is effectively a crossing. The crossings will have occasional passenger movements so would have FPL's, but would the bay entrance, as this would be merely a shunting move of empty stock into it ? Also would the lay-by or either yard entrance require an FPL as this will be goods only ?

 

4. I understand now that with a crossover, one rod only is required from the SB to operate both points at once. Does the same apply to FPL rodding? (Please say yes.... !!!)

 

5. Finally, is it necessary to have a 'shunt limit' signal near the far left hand yard exit  as I've put (SL)?

 

Any advice on these queries is much appreciated as is the advice you've unknowingly provided  me with already!

 

Cheers

 

Bob Davies

[Grovenor]

On the plan as drawn there do not appear to be any facing points, where are the occasional passenger movements you mention?

It would help if you showed the platforms.

 

Ground frames can be released by rodding, or by electric lock, or by a release key. The latter is more commonly used on single lines where the key can be attached to the staff or token, or where the GF is used by shunters and can readily be returned to the box when needed. The GF in this case is most likely used by departing trains and operated by the crew so a key from the box would be very inconvenient. I would go for the electric lock.

If the shunt signal you refer to is the black disc by number 5 then it would be worked by the signal box.

Regards

Keith

[TheSignalEngineer]

As Keith said above where are the platfroms? 

 

Passenger moves through crossovers usually have main signals provided.

 

The ground frame would be best electrically released, although could be rod released at that distance.

 

Yellow arm disc to be controlled from box.

 

Why are discs 1 & 2 provided? No need if points on ground frame.

 

Nothing required where you have SL shown.

 

What passenger moves are made facing direction through points?

 

Home signal at R/H side bottom line must be at clearance from the box.

 

Don't understand the 2-doll bracket by the middle crossover.

 

Where is the signal controlling the exit from the siding by the 2-doll bracket?

 

Eric

[beast66606]

The platforms are to the left of the level crossing - Melling Lane / Station Road - i.e. the opposite side from the box

 

I spent a happy few hours in Maghull box many years ago but no connections left except for the crossover by then, it was quite large. a 28 lever frame.

[BRealistic]

Now if I'd planned a fictitious, but prototypical, layout that happened to be like yours, Bob, I'd have placed the signal box at the opposite end of the station platforms... in sight of most of the points and signals.  Just shows how much I know... which is pretty much zilch when it comes to signalling!... but just look at all that 'extra' rodding.

[Bobartist]

Thanks for that Keith.

 

That's really helpful re. the GF. An electric lock is fine as (I think) it avoids me having to put in another 6' actual feet of rodding !

 

Yes, 5 is the shunt signal I referred to so the rodding from the SB for that appears correct.

 

Apologies, I should have put in the platforms. Left them out for 'clarity' .......   See updated plan. The junction signal shown next to GS 6 is intended to control the bay and is the main line starter. There are a number of 'run-around' empty passenger stock movements that involve the crossings at GS6 and GS9. As trains also would sometimes be departing from their arrival platform after the loco has run round, there would  be a short section of 'wrong line' running to regain the correct line via the crossover, which I assume would thus require the FPLs.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Facing point locks would only be required at the end of crossovers where a loaded passenger train goes through. Generally the FPL would be on a lever of its own, not double ended.

 

The crossover being in the platform makes things very restrictive from the signalling and operating point of view, leading to an over complicated controls to actually do anything. It would be avoided like the plague unless there was no other way round it. IIRC at Maghull the platforms stopped short of the crossover, but I'm thinking 45 years ago when I was last there.

 

The signal reading out of the siding at the top would be a ground disc.

[Bobartist]

Thanks to all for the advice 

 

As Keith said above where are the platfroms? 

 

Passenger moves through crossovers usually have main signals provided.

 

The ground frame would be best electrically released, although could be rod released at that distance.

 

Yellow arm disc to be controlled from box.

 

Why are discs 1 & 2 provided? No need if points on ground frame.

 

Nothing required where you have SL shown.

 

What passenger moves are made facing direction through points?

 

Home signal at R/H side bottom line must be at clearance from the box.

 

Don't understand the 2-doll bracket by the middle crossover.

 

Where is the signal controlling the exit from the siding by the 2-doll bracket?

 

Eric

Hi Eric.

 

Thanks for the feedback. I've just found a photo from 1954 which confirms your memory as far as the crossover being beyond the platform in the Preston direction and right at the end of the Liverpool platform. As I haven't yet constructed the platforms, I can follow the prototype here.

 

I put a 2 doll signal in as the right hand doll would be the main line starter with the left hand being for the bay. I took info from a 1910 photo which shows a form of 2 doll bracket. In the 1954 pic you can see the bay line has been lifted but to add operational interest, I've reinstated it in the model.

 

Would it therefore be more appropriate to put in two separate starting signals rather than a two doll bracket?

 

Am I right in thinking also that there is a rear view of a double shunt signal in the foreground of this 1954 pic?  If so, would the top one be for the crossover and the lower one for the Liverpool bound lay-by behind the photographer?

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

I think two separate signals would be more appropriate than the bracket to be honest.  But if you do use a bracket a wider doll spacing would look better in that situation.

[beast66606]

I have a feeling it may be a left hand bracket for the bay and a right hand bracket for the main - two separate signals, with the bay signal being slightly further away from the photographer

[Grovenor]

As trains also would sometimes be departing from their arrival platform after the loco has run round, there would  be a short section of 'wrong line' running to regain the correct line via the crossover, which I assume would thus require the FPLs.

Provision of fpls for this would indicate a signalled move and hence you would also need starter signals at the rear end of the platforms for these departing trains, and as already mentioned only one fpl per crossover would be needed at the facing end for this move. So for trains departing to the right signal 8 would be a main arm with an fpl at that end of the crossover, for trains departing to the left signal 7 would be a main arm with an fpl on that end of the crossover, there would be an fpl for the bay trap point if passenger trains depart from there but there is no route for these to arrive so would have to be shunted in as ecs.

Keith

[Bobartist]

That's great information, guys.

 

Have a much clearer idea of the siting of FPL's and will now have a re-think about whether to have regular 'wrong line' departures! And the advice on how to configure the bracket signal (or not) is especially useful.

 

All the feedback is very much appreciated.

 

Cheers

 

Bob

[beast66606]

Even with a 28 lever frame it's fairly tight getting everything in, I doubt there were any FPLs provided.

 

Are you sure it was a passenger bay ? and not a - for example - horse landing ?

 

Here's a musing, the numbers are pretty rough, but if the wickets were independent then there would be no spares - and there's no FPL.

 

[Joseph_Pestell]

I'm not quite clear to what extent the OP is seeking to fully model Maghull or whether he just wants to base his station on Maghull's track layout. If the latter, then Rule 1 applies and there might well be a terminating passenger service which leaves over that facing crossover and would need FPLs and a starter signal.

 

But, as ever, there are the exceptions that prove the rule. Not on a daily basis but on all Saturdays in Summer, the Sidmouth portion of the ACE was hand-signalled away from Sidmouth Jct (now Feniton) towards London with the temporarily facing connection clipped and padlocked. So if Maghull  only saw occasional wrong-liine departures that would be an option.

 

Given the location of the signal box (influenced by the position of the level crossing), it seems unlikely to me that the timetable would be written to  terminate trains there. If that was required, I think that the signal box might be at that end of the platform and a separate level crossing cabin (released from the main box) provided to supervise the road.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Facing point locks would only be required at the end of crossovers where a loaded passenger train goes through. Generally the FPL would be on a lever of its own, not double ended.

 

The crossover being in the platform makes things very restrictive from the signalling and operating point of view, leading to an over complicated controls to actually do anything. It would be avoided like the plague unless there was no other way round it. IIRC at Maghull the platforms stopped short of the crossover, but I'm thinking 45 years ago when I was last there.

 

The signal reading out of the siding at the top would be a ground disc.

 

On boxes that were short of space, FPLs and ground signals for a crossover could be operated from a single lever but not both of them at once. The lever would have both FPLs unlocked when it was in a central position in the frame, one FPL locked with the lever forward and one FPL locked with the lever back.

 

This seems to have been more common on some lines than others. I don't know/remember if it was current on the L&Y.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Joseph_Pestell

[beast66606]

Are you sure it was a passenger bay ? and not a - for example - horse landing ?

 

 

Answering my own question (maybe) - from an accident report.for a 1910 collision at Ormskirk

 

"I was in charge of the 9.30 pm. rail motor Maghull to Ormskirk, and we left the former place to time."

[Bobartist]

 

Answering my own question (maybe) - from an accident report.for a 1910 collision at Ormskirk

 

"I was in charge of the 9.30 pm. rail motor Maghull to Ormskirk, and we left the former place to time."

 

 

I'm not quite clear to what extent the OP is seeking to fully model Maghull or whether he just wants to base his station on Maghull's track layout. If the latter, then Rule 1 applies and there might well be a terminating passenger service which leaves over that facing crossover and would need FPLs and a starter signal.

 

But, as ever, there are the exceptions that prove the rule. Not on a daily basis but on all Saturdays in Summer, the Sidmouth portion of the ACE was hand-signalled away from Sidmouth Jct (now Feniton) towards London with the temporarily facing connection clipped and padlocked. So if Maghull  only saw occasional wrong-liine departures that would be an option.

 

Given the location of the signal box (influenced by the position of the level crossing), it seems unlikely to me that the timetable would be written to  terminate trains there. If that was required, I think that the signal box might be at that end of the platform and a separate level crossing cabin (released from the main box) provided to supervise the road.

Hi Joseph.

 

You're quite right in that I'm using modeller's licence to base the layout on Maghull while adapting to suit the available space. The bay platform was indeed used for a local Maghull - Ormskirk service pre-war, as mentioned by Beast 666066, but I think this was taken out of use either before or shortly after WWll. In my 1950's world, it's been re-instated!

 

In reality, there have always been and indeed still are, very occasional departures wrong line back to Liverpool, regaining the correct line via the crossover beyond the LC. I don't however recall seeing a 'wrong line' starter signal in the last 30 years or so. This move usually  happens if a train has broken down or there's a track problem beyond Maghull, as Ormskirk now terminates in a single track and I think this is the last remaining crossover between Maghull and Ormskirk.

 

I do however like your idea of the occasional hand-signalled wrong-line departure. An appropriately posed and positioned 4mm scale figure seems a lot less complicated than installing another starter signal and all that associated rodding!

 

Many thanks for those thoughts.

 

Bob

[Bobartist]

 

Answering my own question (maybe) - from an accident report.for a 1910 collision at Ormskirk

 

"I was in charge of the 9.30 pm. rail motor Maghull to Ormskirk, and we left the former place to time."

 

Beast

 

That is really very good of you to go to the trouble of properly 're-signalling' the layout! As a newcomer to RM Web, I'm quite taken aback at the quality, generosity

 

Provision of fpls for this would indicate a signalled move and hence you would also need starter signals at the rear end of the platforms for these departing trains, and as already mentioned only one fpl per crossover would be needed at the facing end for this move. So for trains departing to the right signal 8 would be a main arm with an fpl at that end of the crossover, for trains departing to the left signal 7 would be a main arm with an fpl on that end of the crossover, there would be an fpl for the bay trap point if passenger trains depart from there but there is no route for these to arrive so would have to be shunted in as ecs.

Keith

Thanks Keith.  As with the other responses, excellent assistance.

cheers

Bob

 and depth of knowledge in the responses.

 

I had also read about the Maghull-Ormskirk rail-motor accident and it was this that actually alerted me to the fact that I could justify a local service such as this from a bay platform to add operational interest. Yes I know it would double up on the electric service to Ormskirk, but in my world, the Maghull shuttle could run on to Southport or over the then existing branch to Rainford and St. Helens. 

[Bobartist]

Hi All,

 

Apart from the brilliant advice, I'll apologise for several of my posts ploughing into and  mixed up amongst various of your responses. Clearly, I need a few FPL's on my own submissions! I'll happily take all your musings on board and re-signal re-rod accordingly.

 

Cheers and thanks

 

Bob

[beast66606]

Hi All,

 

Apart from the brilliant advice, I'll apologise for several of my posts ploughing into and  mixed up amongst various of your responses. Clearly, I need a few FPL's on my own submissions! I'll happily take all your musings on board and re-signal re-rod accordingly.

 

Cheers and thanks

 

Bob

 

Did you notice the diagram I posted ?

[Bobartist]

Did you notice the diagram I posted ?

Indeed I did, thanks. Absolutely superb! I did acknowledge this earlier as a brilliant bit of support, but my incompetence with posting procedures seems to have left it in amongst other posts further up the page.

 

Nevertheless, I'm more than happy to repeat my gratitude for the time and effort you've made to put a complete novice signalman right!

 

Cheers

 

Bob

[TheSignalEngineer]

On boxes that were short of space, FPLs and ground signals for a crossover could be operated from a single lever but not both of them at once. The lever would have both FPLs unlocked when it was in a central position in the frame, one FPL locked with the lever forward and one FPL locked with the lever back.

 

This seems to have been more common on some lines than others. I don't know/remember if it was current on the L&Y.

Agreed that this was done at times but I can't recall any frames with centre position levers were used in that area.

 

A more likely solution to shortage of levers would be to use detection selectors on the double discs so they could be worked by one lever, the arm clearing being determined by the lie of the points.

 

I think the real answer lies in what was actually at Maghull. The old OS maps are not really conclusive as the best scale on the web (as far as I can see) is 1:2500. Some of these don't show the "Bay" directly connected to the main line, but as part of the sidings. Later ones show it connected directly to the main.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Thanks to all for the advice 

 

Hi Eric.

 

Thanks for the feedback. I've just found a photo from 1954 which confirms your memory as far as the crossover being beyond the platform in the Preston direction and right at the end of the Liverpool platform. As I haven't yet constructed the platforms, I can follow the prototype here.

 

I put a 2 doll signal in as the right hand doll would be the main line starter with the left hand being for the bay. I took info from a 1910 photo which shows a form of 2 doll bracket. In the 1954 pic you can see the bay line has been lifted but to add operational interest, I've reinstated it in the model.

 

Would it therefore be more appropriate to put in two separate starting signals rather than a two doll bracket?

 

Am I right in thinking also that there is a rear view of a double shunt signal in the foreground of this 1954 pic?  If so, would the top one be for the crossover and the lower one for the Liverpool bound lay-by behind the photographer?

Looking at the photo and maps of the time I suspect it was possibly two signals that look as if thy are together.

 

I think you are correct on the double disc.

 

The key date to a lot of the layout at Maghull could be 1909, as I think that was when a new 28-lever L&Y frame was put in the box.

[Steve Claud]

It may be too late for you, but 'British Railways Layout Plans of the 1950s' The John Swift Collection, 'Volume 5: ex-Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway Lines in West Lancashire' published by the Signalling Record Society ISBN 1 873228 04 X has the signalling diagram for Maghull Station.

Edited December 30, 2017 by Steve Claud