Thompson A2/3 Class

[landscapes]

Good morning all

 

I am working on a project and need some information regarding the Thompson class A2/3 Pacific locomotives.

 

I know at some time in the 1950's they lowered the smoke box number plate from above the smoke box handrail down to below the handrail located on the top smoke box top hinge strap.

 

My question is does anyone know if they applied the late totem to the tender before the number plate alterations took place, IE locos running with late tender crest but with smoke box number plate above the smoke box handrail.

 

Also has anyone any evidence of this by way of photographs for the following locomotives.

 

60511 Airborne,

60512 Steady Aim,

60515 Sun Stream,

60518 Tehran,

60519 Honeyway,

60521 Watling Street

 

Regards

 

David

[Mallard60022]

Contact Tony Wright. He will have all the information you require. Other sources are available.

P

[great northern]

Hi David,

 

I have a photo of 60515 taken in summer 1958, still with high numberplate and early crest. It went in for a general shortly afterwards, when the numberplate would have been moved, so I think that rules Sun Stream out.

[great northern]

Hi David,

 

Photo of 60518 taken 27/5/58 shows late crest and lowered numberplate, so that one is out as well I'm afraid.

[landscapes]

Hi Gilbert

 

Many thanks for the reply, I thought that would be the case with most of the A2/3's but it was worth asking.

 

Regards

 

David

[great northern]

Further information from RCTS 2A. "The numberplates were fitted across the smokebox door hinge on the A2/3's between December 1956 (60519) and October 1958 (60515)." So, none would have had high numberplate after September 1958 when 515 entered works. I've checked Yeadon, and all of the locos you mention had general overhauls in 1957 or 1958, when late crest would have been applied.

[Mallard60022]

Just remembered I have the 'Book of the A2s somewhere. I'll have a look tonight if I'm awake enough!

P

[Tony Wright]

Hi Gilbert

 

Many thanks for the reply, I thought that would be the case with most of the A2/3's but it was worth asking.

 

Regards

 

David

David,

           Having gone through all my collection of photographs and books, I can 'confirm' (as far as my records go) that no Thompson A2/3 ever ran with the later BR crest and the higher front numberplate. I've found a picture of 60514 where it's the other way round - lowered front numberplate but original BR totem, which is slightly unusual, but this arrangement can also be found on A2/2s (60501 and 60506) and A2/1s (60508) and several of the Peppercorn Pacifics, but never the other way round - high numberplate/late crest. I think that arrangement is reserved for the A3s. 

 

Just in case folk aren't sure why the numberplates were lowered, it was because the top lamp bracket was lowered and it was then the easiest place to put the plate. The bracket was lowered because of complaints from crews struggling to lift train headboards (note how many carry headboards on the middle bracket above the beam) and because, in the higher position, a headboard caused eddies behind it (or so it was claimed) drawing smoke down. Presumably because, at the time, the A3s didn't have deflectors of any kind, it wasn't a problem for them (perhaps their crews didn't complain, either). There are numerous instances of numberplates and crossrails being transposed at the same time (on A3s as well), so do check pictures. With the coming of overhead electrification (and its inherent dangers), the top brackets were lowered on some locos even further, effectively splitting the crossrail. It was at that time that some of the A3s had their plates lowered as well, but the practice was inconsistent. 

 

Finally, and I hope all this twaddle helps, on many Thompson/Peppercorn Pacifics, the lowering of the lamp bracket and the numberplate coincided with the change of plate to incorporate the correct, Gill Sans, style of '6' and '9'. As far as the A2/3s were concerned 60511/12/14/15/16/17/18/19/20/21/24 had the incorrect style when their plates were higher up, but all of them got the right style as their plates were lowered. How, or why, 60500/22/23 got theirs right first time or why 60513 (originally incorrect) latterly got a correct plate but it was fixed high up to start with, is lost in the mists of time.

 

A minefield? Yes, and similarly so for the other Pacifics as far as numberplate fonts are concerned. For instance, only 60119 of the post-Gresley Pacifics never had its incorrect front numberplate style altered, and 60507 started off with the wrong style but, like 60513, got the right style while the plate was still fixed higher up. Yet, all the A2/2s got theirs right first time.

 

It takes years of study to become this sad! However, I hope this helps.

 

Ian Wilson of Pacific Models provides front numberplates in both correct and incorrect styles.

Edited December 10, 2013 by Tony Wright

[landscapes]

David,

           Having gone through all my collection of photographs and books, I can 'confirm' (as far as my records go) that no Thompson A2/3 ever ran with the later BR crest and the higher front numberplate. I've found a picture of 60514 where it's the other way round - lowered front numberplate but original BR totem, which is slightly unusual, but this arrangement can also be found on A2/2s (60501 and 60506) and A2/1s (60508) and several of the Peppercorn Pacifics, but never the other way round - high numberplate/late crest. I think that arrangement is reserved for the A3s. 

 

Just in case folk aren't sure why the numberplates were lowered, it was because the top lamp bracket was lowered and it was then the easiest place to put the plate. The bracket was lowered because of complaints from crews struggling to lift train headboards (note how many carry headboards on the middle bracket above the beam) and because, in the higher position, a headboard caused eddies behind it (or so it was claimed) drawing smoke down. Presumably because, at the time, the A3s didn't have deflectors of any kind, it wasn't a problem for them (perhaps their crews didn't complain, either). There are numerous instances of numberplates and crossrails being transposed at the same time (on A3s as well), so do check pictures. With the coming of overhead electrification (and its inherent dangers), the top brackets were lowered on some locos even further, effectively splitting the crossrail. It was at that time that some of the A3s had their plates lowered as well, but the practice was inconsistent. 

 

Finally, and I hope all this twaddle helps, on many Thompson/Peppercorn Pacifics, the lowering of the lamp bracket and the numberplate coincided with the change of plate to incorporate the correct, Gill Sans, style of '6' and '9'. As far as the A2/3s were concerned 60511/12/14/15/16/17/18/19/20/21/24 had the incorrect style when their plates were higher up, but all of them got the right style as their plates were lowered. How, or why, 60500/22/23 got theirs right first time or why 60513 (originally incorrect) latterly got a correct plate but it was fixed high up to start with, is lost in the mists of time.

 

A minefield? Yes, and similarly so for the other Pacifics as far as numberplate fonts are concerned. For instance, only 60119 of the post-Gresley Pacifics never had its incorrect front numberplate style altered, and 60507 started off with the wrong style but, like 60513, got the right style while the plate was still fixed higher up. Yet, all the A2/2s got theirs right first time.

 

It takes years of study to become this sad! However, I hope this helps.

 

Ian Wilson of Pacific Models provides front numberplates in both correct and incorrect styles.

Hi Tony

 

Many thanks for the reply and explanation , you have solved two of my problems now as you have confirmed the number style to me as well and that was my next on my list.

 

I have already ordered the etched brass nameplates and front smokebox number plates from Gary at 247 Developements but it is also very usefull to know Pacific models sell them as well.

 

You are so right when you say the Gresley and Thompson Pacific's are a bit of a minefield to model.

 

Thanks again for your help and taking the time to reply.

 

Regards

 

David

[landscapes]

Just remembered I have the 'Book of the A2s somewhere. I'll have a look tonight if I'm awake enough!

P

Thanks Mallard, I appreciate your help and to everyone who replied to my cry for help.

 

Regards

 

David

[landscapes]

Hi More help required regarding my A2/3 Bachmann conversions.

 

Any suggestions please on applying tender lining transfers to the Bachmann riveted tender.

 

I completed one side using Fox tender lining transfers all went well but the transfer did not sit well were it covered the riveted areas.

 

I waited until is was completely dry then pressed the transfer down by applying pressure I then applied a coat of Johnson's Klear to seal them with a 10mm flat brush and disaster lengths of the transfer broke up and come away from the tender sides.

 

I have been told to use Micrasol to soften the transfer so it sits better over the rivets but not sure when it should be applied to the transfer, any help or advise welcome.

 

Regards

 

David

Edited November 3, 2017 by landscapes

[John Tomlinson]

The Microsol/ Microsoft products are fine to a point. I can never remember which is which without reading the instructions, but you apply one to the surface of the model before putting the transfer on, and one after. Statement of the obvious, the relevant surface needs to be flat otherwise the fluid runs away!

 

I say "fine to a point" as they can't achieve the impossible, and most transfers will break up anyway if subject to too much rough stuff - from other posts on this matter I suspect the Fox ones being quite fine are also quite delicate.

 

I can't quite remember the rivet positions relative to the lining on these tenders, but one dodge may be to have the lining in not quite the right place so as to reduce the extent of overlay on rivets. You may or may not find this satisfactory.

 

FWIW I tend to use the HMRS Pressfix transfers whenever possible. They stick well, have no transfer film and seem quite tough, if not perhaps quite so fine as other products.

 

John.

[Daddyman]

Hi More help required regarding my A2/3 Bachmann conversions.

 

Any suggestions please on applying tender lining transfers to the Bachmann riveted tender.

 

I completed one side using Fox tender lining transfers all went well but the transfer did not sit well were it covered the riveted areas.

 

I waited until is was completely dry then pressed the transfer down by applying pressure I then applied a coat of Johnson's Klear to seal them with a 10mm flat brush and disaster lengths of the transfer broke up and come away from the tender sides.

 

I have been told to use Micrasol to soften the transfer so it sits better over the rivets but not sure when it should be applied to the transfer, any help or advise welcome.

 

Regards

 

David

You are using a high gloss paint, are you? 

[landscapes]

You are using a high gloss paint, are you? 

 

Hi Daddyman

 

No both tenders were completely resprayed in a matt paint finish, I was thinking of applying a coat of Johnson's Klear before I applied the transfer linings but decided not to.

 

That maybe were I went wrong.

 

Regards

 

David

[landscapes]

The Microsol/ Microsoft products are fine to a point. I can never remember which is which without reading the instructions, but you apply one to the surface of the model before putting the transfer on, and one after. Statement of the obvious, the relevant surface needs to be flat otherwise the fluid runs away!

 

I say "fine to a point" as they can't achieve the impossible, and most transfers will break up anyway if subject to too much rough stuff - from other posts on this matter I suspect the Fox ones being quite fine are also quite delicate.

 

I can't quite remember the rivet positions relative to the lining on these tenders, but one dodge may be to have the lining in not quite the right place so as to reduce the extent of overlay on rivets. You may or may not find this satisfactory.

 

FWIW I tend to use the HMRS Pressfix transfers whenever possible. They stick well, have no transfer film and seem quite tough, if not perhaps quite so fine as other products.

 

John.

Hi John

 

Thank you for the reply, I some how do not think the transfer tender linings would look right if I tried to avoid the rivets.

 

But I wail look into the Microsol/Microsoft products.

 

Regards

 

David

[Daddyman]

Hi Daddyman

 

No both tenders were completely resprayed in a matt paint finish, I was thinking of applying a coat of Johnson's Klear before I applied the transfer linings but decided not to.

 

That maybe were I went wrong.

 

Regards

 

David

I'd say no question about it, David. 

 

I've never used Klear, but I've recently started following Ian Rathbone's advice of spraying Ronseal Polyurethene Hardglaze Gloss (sic) at 40 psi, and it's the best varnishing experience I've ever had.

 

I've been applying gloss, then transfers, then the Ronseal again but with Phoenix Precision matting agent to bring it down to satin for the top coat. 

 

But even in my benighted days before meeting Ian, I managed to line the tender you're dealing with some years ago, with the transfers correctly on the rivets - but again, it was on a gloss finish. 

 

Best, 

David. 

Edited November 5, 2017 by Daddyman

[landscapes]

I'd say no question about it, David. 

 

I've never used Klear, but I've recently started following Ian Rathbone's advice of spraying Ronseal Polyurethene Hardglaze Gloss (sic) at 40 psi, and it's the best varnishing experience I've ever had.

 

I've been applying gloss, then transfers, then the Ronseal again but with Phoenix Precision matting agent to bring it down to satin for the top coat. 

 

But even in my benighted days before meeting Ian, I managed to line the tender you're dealing with some years ago, with the transfers correctly on the rivets - but again, it was on a gloss finish. 

 

Best, 

David. 

 

Hi David

 

Many thanks fro the information, I must be one of the only members of RM Web who owns four Air Brushes and has never used one of them to date.

 

I will not bore you with how I come to have four.

 

I do intend to use them some time in the future when I have the correct workspace for carrying out Air Brush Work.

 

With the excellent detailed description you have given me I will certainly give it a try.

 

Regards

 

David

[Daddyman]

You're welcome. Glad to be of help. 

 

If you can get hold of the Tony Wright/Ian Rathbone DVD ("Painting and Lining Model Locos"?) there are 30 secs or so of Ian spraying top coat, and that's all you need to know about painting - but Ian's book is superbly useful too. 

Edited November 6, 2017 by Daddyman