S/H Hornby Damaged in Transit

[robmcg]

Hi All,

 

While it is common to blame Hornby for delays in supply of new models because of failed drop-tests, or blame them for inadequate packaging, or inappropriate packaging, or the weather, I was one of the many who found the 'location brackets and foam' style packaging slightly annoying.

 

Not so sure now.

 

Bought a s/h weathered model from Hattons, aftermarket DCC-fitted, details including brakerods, front pipes added, and liked the look of an excellent model. State-of-art 00 RTR in my estimation.

 

Here is that lovely model, as advertised and purchased, below;

 

 

Tracked Air Parcel was only £12.50.   Parcel arrived in 8 days, 6 of those being before Christmas. Parcel unmarked, un-damaged. This was outstanding for pre-Christmas. Excellent!  But ominously, the parcel was rattling slightly.

 

I opened it. The new, sturdy brown carton, marked 'handle with care', contained two Hornby engines, the 4MT  and a Black 5 in their unmarked factory boxes, surrounded with bubble-wrap and plastic air pillows, the engines tight on one side on the box.

 

Clearly the box hadn't been crushed, so why was the 4MT like this? (the Black 5 also suffered, but less.)

 

 

When I opened the standard sleeve-type Hornby packaging, there were small parts 'off' everywhere, yet the engine was tucked reasonably securely in place, the transit brackets were not screwed on but were supplied taped under the foam. 

 

On the inside of the foam insert, the right hand side of the engine looking forward, all steps but the front were detached and one was twisted to the point of being junk, one was broken in half. The chimney was off, the coal bunker rear plate was off, the front cab glazing was out, on the front, one buffer was seriously bent up and one had broken off, yet the model was apparently when first checked not hard against the front of the insert. It did not appear to move inside the foam, fore-and-aft or side-to-side.

 

I think this parcel was dropped and maybe even drop-kicked, yet the boxes inside were neither squashed nor visibly damaged. Whom to blame?    No one?  Hattons could not be expected to remove the brakerods and fit transit brackets, that is skilled and tricky work, and their handling appears to have been ok., except the engine and tender perhaps should have been more snug in the foam insert, also the placing of the boxed-engines to one side of the box is amateur, but should be sufficient.

 

Can't prove anything about the air packet handling, Royal Mail, NZ Post, NZ Post Courier, all have been good in the past, so what to do?  Was it vibration in transit by air for days? Was it dropped?

 

I have no doubt Hattons would accept the damage and refund my approx. £100 for this engine, as they have offered to in one or two similar cases with me in the past,  (the Black 5 lost a step, nothing more, neither have been test run yet),  but I will not return it. I will repair it and accept the risks of transit damage.

 

Transit brackets in place would have prevented this damage? I do not know, but if I am buying a s/h fully detailed model, I no longer expect it to arrive undamaged (I have 4 more in transit!)

 

Happy modelling.

 

 

 

 

edit, both smoke-box handles are perfect! <g>

[Ozexpatriate]

It's all too familiar Rob. Tintagel Castle was in a similar condition for me, though not quite as extreme - busted chimney, other detail bits loose. (This was a couple of years ago.)
 

Have you ever watched anyone loading luggage into an aeroplane? I can't imagine our packages in the post get treated any better.

 

I do have a question for you though. Do the broken off parts appear to have been adequately glued?

My Lode Star had bits that fell off too. Two of them didn't appear to have been glued on at all - just inserted into their mounting space.

[robmcg]

I have now noticed that the tender front has been damaged at the top, the area of a weather strip, I have found the piece, but am now debating whether I will accept the model from Hattons as the repairs are a bit daunting and it was a £100 purchase, or thereabouts. The regulator rod is loose and only sitting in place.  I shall think on it. Tracked airmail back to Liverpool is about £20  from here...   it is not fit for purpose.

[robmcg]

It's all too familiar Rob. Tintagel Castle was in a similar condition for me, though not quite as extreme - busted chimney, other detail bits loose. (This was a couple of years ago.)

 

Have you ever watched anyone loading luggage into an aeroplane? I can't imagine our packages in the post get treated any better.

 

I do have a question for you though. Do the broken off parts appear to have been adequately glued?

 

My Lode Star had bits that fell off too. Two of them didn't appear to have been glued on at all - just inserted into their mounting space.

 

Our messages just crossed...   the parts all appear to have no sign of glue at all. The tender coal-space back plate and chimney in particular sit in place ok without any glue.

 

Reading a contributor to the 'Star' thread I see that assembly problems still abound.

 

To Hattons' credit they tend to refund faulty goods after what was probably transit damage, even if they have taken what might be seen as reasonable care.  

 

Who would be a retailer?  I sometimes sell s/h models and if what the buyer receives is in any way damaged in transit I refund, but I pack well and have had no issues in 250-odd sales.

 

Most of my many hundreds of purchases from the UK have been ok., a chimney off here, a smokebox handle there, and a percentage of damaged-from-new or non-runners.  Part of the hobby, alas.

 

Edit;  it is difficult to judge this. The Black 5 survived the air-freight and so on with only one step off, which I can fix. It has the older non-split foam packaging. The newer split-foam packaging was used for the 4MT , with the engine and tender permanently coupled and the foam cut to suit, and the transit brackets were not used, primarily because that would require the brakerods of the model to be partially removed. With after-knowledge, foam packing blocks here and there should have been inserted.  But what a problem for seller. I would have put the items in with more padding and skill, I notice Hattons have used less foam wrapping in the last year than previously, too.

[Matabiau]

I have had similar problems with Hornby items coming from Hattons. Firstly the Hornby packaging isn't brilliant (the old style expanded polystyrene) and the transport brackets MUST be put in place if the loco is to go through the post. The brackets serve to hold the loco within the tray so that fragile details don't come into contact with the hard tray. Secondly Hattons have the unfortunate habit of packing their boxes by putting in the trains first and then filling the remaining gap with plastic cushions. Any impact on the face of the box in contact with the trains will propagate directly into the contents and potentially cause damage. Rails still use shredded newspaper and make sure that the train is completely surrounded within the transport box.

I have put this to Hattons many times following damage in transit but they don't want to change. As a result I never order Hornby locos from Hattons any more as the combination of packaging styles is just asking for trouble.

[corax67]

These pictures and your description do indicate a fairly serious impact somewhere within the delivery system and even allowing for ther having been not much glue applied the forces involved must have been significant.

 

It does look like returning it for a refund it it's the best option despite the high overseas postage costs as this really isn't fit for purpose which is a great shame as it is a lovely loco.

[gwrrob]

I made the mistake of returning a Grange back to Hornby when the crosshead buckled under use.I didn't fit the transit brackets and bits including the safety valve came off.Hornby fixed the running problem but said as it was damaged when they received it weren't prepared to fix the broken bits.

 

A lesson learned by me and I pack more solidly now.I also use Special Delivery as standard for returning locos.

[asmay2002]

With all of those bits falling off I would suspect sustained vibration rather than a single drop. 

[steveb860]

With all of those bits falling off I would suspect sustained vibration rather than a single drop.

I agree. Serious impact damage would have left visible signs of damage on the outer packaging

[60800]

Why return the loco is my question - All the outlined problems with it are very easy to fix. I would understand if it didn't run or the valve gear was damaged, but all of the cosmetic damages are very easy fixes. I've had numerous occasions when locos have lost front steps in packaging (even a cab in one instance). The last instance of damage to a loco that I had delivered was my Bachmann D11 where the reverser rod and it's cover fell off. 

 

It's unfortunate that we have to deal with accidents in-transit, but on the face of it, we are modellers, and it's significantly less hassle fixing the loco than returning it and ending up with nothing better than a refund minus return postage.

[corax67]

Why return the loco is my question - All the outlined problems with it are very easy to fix. I would understand if it didn't run or the valve gear was damaged, but all of the cosmetic damages are very easy fixes. I've had numerous occasions when locos have lost front steps in packaging (even a cab in one instance). The last instance of damage to a loco that I had delivered was my Bachmann D11 where the reverser rod and it's cover fell off. 

 

It's unfortunate that we have to deal with accidents in-transit, but on the face of it, we are modellers, and it's significantly less hassle fixing the loco than returning it and ending up with nothing better than a refund minus return postage.

Because when you pay £100 for a loco you should not have to spend time and effort repairing it!

 

The supplier can see from the order that it is overseas dispatch and should package accordingly - I have acquired railway items and delicate electronics from Europe and the USA over the years including valves and these are always packed in such a way the contents are intact even on rare occasions when the outer packaging has been damaged.

 

Just because we are modellers and can rectify damage it does not mean we should accept damage and the need to repair it.

[corax67]

With all of those bits falling off I would suspect sustained vibration rather than a single drop.

 

On reflection I think you are more likely to be right - disappointing none the less.

[Dunsignalling]

Hi All,

 

While it is common to blame Hornby for delays in supply of new models because of failed drop-tests, or blame them for inadequate packaging, or inappropriate packaging, or the weather, I was one of the many who found the 'location brackets and foam' style packaging slightly annoying.

 

Not so sure now.

 

Bought a s/h weathered model from Hattons, aftermarket DCC-fitted, details including brakerods, front pipes added, and liked the look of an excellent model. State-of-art 00 RTR in my estimation.

 

Here is that lovely model, as advertised and purchased, below;

 

4MT_Hattons_damage_4ab_r800.jpg

 

Tracked Air Parcel was only £12.50.   Parcel arrived in 8 days, 6 of those being before Christmas. Parcel unmarked, un-damaged. This was outstanding for pre-Christmas. Excellent!  But ominously, the parcel was rattling slightly.

 

I opened it. The new, sturdy brown carton, marked 'handle with care', contained two Hornby engines, the 4MT  and a Black 5 in their unmarked factory boxes, surrounded with bubble-wrap and plastic air pillows, the engines tight on one side on the box.

 

Clearly the box hadn't been crushed, so why was the 4MT like this? (the Black 5 also suffered, but less.)

 

4MT_Hattons_damage_5a_r800.jpg

 

When I opened the standard sleeve-type Hornby packaging, there were small parts 'off' everywhere, yet the engine was tucked reasonably securely in place, the transit brackets were not screwed on but were supplied taped under the foam. 

 

On the inside of the foam insert, the right hand side of the engine looking forward, all steps but the front were detached and one was twisted to the point of being junk, one was broken in half. The chimney was off, the coal bunker rear plate was off, the front cab glazing was out, on the front, one buffer was seriously bent up and one had broken off, yet the model was apparently when first checked not hard against the front of the insert. It did not appear to move inside the foam, fore-and-aft or side-to-side.

 

I think this parcel was dropped and maybe even drop-kicked, yet the boxes inside were neither squashed nor visibly damaged. Whom to blame?    No one?  Hattons could not be expected to remove the brakerods and fit transit brackets, that is skilled and tricky work, and their handling appears to have been ok., except the engine and tender perhaps should have been more snug in the foam insert, also the placing of the boxed-engines to one side of the box is amateur, but should be sufficient.

 

Can't prove anything about the air packet handling, Royal Mail, NZ Post, NZ Post Courier, all have been good in the past, so what to do?  Was it vibration in transit by air for days? Was it dropped?

 

I have no doubt Hattons would accept the damage and refund my approx. £100 for this engine, as they have offered to in one or two similar cases with me in the past,  (the Black 5 lost a step, nothing more, neither have been test run yet),  but I will not return it. I will repair it and accept the risks of transit damage.

 

Transit brackets in place would have prevented this damage? I do not know, but if I am buying a s/h fully detailed model, I no longer expect it to arrive undamaged (I have 4 more in transit!)

 

Happy modelling.

 

4MT_Hattons_damage_1ab_r800.jpg

 

4MT_Hattons_damage_2a_r800.jpg

 

 

edit, both smoke-box handles are perfect! <g>

Some of those 4MTs turned up looking like that when new.

 

There appears to have been something of an economy drive going on in the glue department with some batches!

 

John 

[G-BOAF]

Buffer beam looks well and truly damaged - the buffer shank has come off taking the entire area of buffer beam below it. With the loco being weathered, a repair don't look like its on the cards. If it wasn't for the buffers I'd say repair it... but its worse than that. Its not just parts off, its core body components broken.

[Neil]

A possibly niave question if I may. Several of the posts imply that return postage is the responsibility of the dissatisfied customer. I was under the impression that if you buy something by mail order the seller is responsible for it until it's in your hands, or letterbox. Therefore I can't see why on being presented with a damaged item you should have to stump up the return postage; you certainly wouldn't buy it over the counter in a damaged state.

[Matabiau]

A possibly niave question if I may. Several of the posts imply that return postage is the responsibility of the dissatisfied customer. I was under the impression that if you buy something by mail order the seller is responsible for it until it's in your hands, or letterbox. Therefore I can't see why on being presented with a damaged item you should have to stump up the return postage; you certainly wouldn't buy it over the counter in a damaged state.

I think you will find that only applies to online and telephone purchases within the European Union. Outside the EU you have to rely on insurance usually offered as an extra by the postal service.

[robmcg]

Why return the loco is my question - All the outlined problems with it are very easy to fix. I would understand if it didn't run or the valve gear was damaged, but all of the cosmetic damages are very easy fixes. I've had numerous occasions when locos have lost front steps in packaging (even a cab in one instance). The last instance of damage to a loco that I had delivered was my Bachmann D11 where the reverser rod and it's cover fell off. 

 

It's unfortunate that we have to deal with accidents in-transit, but on the face of it, we are modellers, and it's significantly less hassle fixing the loco than returning it and ending up with nothing better than a refund minus return postage.

 

We have two agree and two disagree, which rather matches my own dilemma. I enjoy modelling and don't mind fitting some details, which you rightly point out are fairly basic modelling activities, but when I buy a finished detailed model I pay extra for that to be done for me, and it should be delivered without the considerable damage mine received.

 

At present I am of a mind to fix the engine.   Well, have largely done so... If the damage affected the running, or was more than cosmetic and could not be easily fixed, I would return it.

 

The broader issue than this one unfortunate delivery issue (not uncommon by the sound of it) is that of consumer law generally.  Hattons have good policy in place, with I think a fair degree of discretion.

 

In any event...

 

 

 

[robmcg]

Buffer beam looks well and truly damaged - the buffer shank has come off taking the entire area of buffer beam below it. With the loco being weathered, a repair don't look like its on the cards. If it wasn't for the buffers I'd say repair it... but its worse than that. Its not just parts off, its core body components broken.

 

True, I will weigh that up against the cost of returning it.  As you can see, the 'core damage' is not very obvious. Photo editing goes a long way...My abilities (or lack of) with glue are such that I always get thing just right, with polystyrene, and then when I think it has set, turn the thing upsidedown and it falls off, and the second attempt is invariably worse....

[robmcg]

On reflection I think you are more likely to be right - disappointing none the less.

 

Even though it seems like sustained vibration to me, too, as well as perhaps a couple of serious drop-style events, I cannot think of how a box in a parcel delivery container could be subjected to anything in the serious vibration category.

 

I am put in mind of the Peter Cook and Dudley Moore movie 'Bedazzled' where Peter Cook used a back yard production line to apply scratches to new LP records, casually, he being the devil...

[Forester]

The normal procedure locally is to contact Hattons and they will supply a return postage sticker free.

Whether that applies to long distance overseas I don't know, but surely the best first option is to contact them and ask what they are willing to do to remedy the problem?

Why assume they will not be helpful without checking first? Indeed how can a good decision be made without knowing what the options are?

[robmcg]

Oh I know Hattons are helpful, they always have been, I emailed them yesterday and got an answer immediately,

 

>>Dear Robbie,

Thanks for getting in touch.

It's a great shame to see that these two locomotives have arrived with you in such a condition. You are more than welcome to return these to us (our full returns policy is available at www.ehattons.com however please get in touch with any questions you may have). I've also passed these photos through to our pre-owned team also.

Kind regards,

Dave Martin
Retail Specialist<<

 

So no problems there.  I don't think Hattons would pay for tracked air packet post from here in NZ but in any event will probably not follow that route.

 

Cheers,

 

Rob

 

[robmcg]

just for your interest here is a part of Hattons returns policy;

 

 

 

 

 

UK Customers:

 

The cost of return postage will be reimbursed in the instance of faulty or incorrect items, if requested in the covering letter, and returned by the appropriate option of:

• Royal Mail Second Class with "Proof of Postage" for parcels below 1Kg
• Royal Mail "Standard Parcel" for parcels weighing more than 1Kg

"Proof of postage" certificates are available free-of-charge from post offices, and avoid the need to use services like "Signed for" or "Special Delivery". They ensure that, in the event of a missing parcel, you can prove it was posted to us.

International customers:
 

• Please return the items to us using the most economic method, in most cases this will be by Surface Mail.

 

Faulty, Damaged or incorrect items:

 

Need to be reported to us within five days of receiving the item. The items should be returned to us in the condition they were received, preferably in the original parcel/wrapping. If it is not possible to return the item(s) in the original parcel/packing they should be suitably packaged to prevent further damage whilst in transit.

Missing or damaged components:

If a particular component is damaged or missing, we will often only require the damaged item to be returned to us (rather than the entire set). Please speak to a member of our returns staff to confirm what we require, in order to remedy a problem.

Unwanted items:

Will normally be refunded, if returned within 10 days of receipt. when returned with the item and packaging in as new condition.

[Forester]

Cheers, but did you ask?

 

I take a fundamentally different view.

 

If everyone routinely returned damaged items the packing would soon improve and in future you would be much less likely to receive another damaged item.

 

I have found with Hattons, if you politely decline their first unsatisfactory offer of a remedy, they will often come back with a more acceptable one.

This is one reason why I tend to go to them first before looking elsewhere. They know it is good business practice to satisfy customers if at all possible.

[robmcg]

I already knew their policy in broad terms, from memory of returning an item or two before.

 

I asked about returning this item within hours of receipt of the damaged goods.  They were polite and super fast.

 

No complaints at all, except that their packaging and the delivery was less-than-adequate, and I have had to repair the product. I could return it also, or could have returned it before I started to repair it. Having messed with it, and recompense would be at their discretion.

 

There will be a very great number of returns of Hornby items soon, if the quality control on Stars and the DoG mentioned in other threads here is any guide, but perhaps no one will tell Margate? <g>

[Forester]

I'm sure your repaired model will be better than perfect, Rob.

Just don't want others in your situation to think they have to roll over and accept the same route unless they choose to.

Looking forward to a picture of 75005 in steam.......