RMweb Premium jamie92208 Posted December 31, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 31, 2013 Having recently spent many hours watching the live webcam feed from the ginat Union Pacific Bailey yard at North Platte Nebraska (Yes I do know this is about UK prototype so be patient.) I have been wondering how the sidings in the bowl area of a marshalling yard were allocated. I realise that it's some years since we had working hump yards here in the UK but I'm sure that someone out there know the answer to my question. Say you had 32 tracks in a bowl, would they all serve different destinations or would trains be built up on an as needed basis. Did these allocations stay relatively constant, say sidings 1 to 8 for destinations to between north and est, 9 to 16 for destinations east to south etc. Or were theye allocated according to known traffic densities. preumably keeping track designations constant would make the working out of hump cut lists easier. I would be interested in any light that can be shed on this subject, and this interest has been stimulated by wtaching two humps in constant use on the webcam. Jamie PS I was probably told the answer to this at Kingmoor aged 13 when I had a tour of the yard but have slept too many times since then. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted December 31, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 31, 2013 I'm sure it varied but in some yards it depended on the time of day and what was being sorted, especially for secondary sorts (which were often done at the flat end of the yard in some places. So what tended to happen was that regular busy destinations had an allocated road or roads and the less busy ones could be and would be changed over the period of the day or as traffic levels dictated. Depending on the control equipment in some places the automatic allocation system could be changed by altering the way pin configurations were read if a punched tape was used to drive the point operation. So it really was horses for courses but it's important to remember the bit about secondary sorting sorting - for example at Margam one of the primary sorts when I was there was 'West Wales' and, although there wasn't much traffic by my time what there was had to undergo a secondary sort to get wagons in the right order for the train to be able to work the various locations it served. We had just the same situation in flat yards where I worked - certain sidings for regular flows were allocated but others changed as the day went on (or as the week progressed and the 'Sunday turn fiddle' was brought into play by the Shunters - it basically being to increase the number of wagons needed to transfer to the Up side to shunt; early in teh week those wagons went one way but come Wednesday night they began to be shunted into the transfer roads. Once we got TOPS in it was amusing watching the way certain wagon cards moved round the yard!). At another (flat) yard where I was for a while several roads in the Down Yard had one function by day and a different one on the night turn because the Down pilot was shunting completely different traffic at night. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 It would be worth having a look at 'British Marshalling Yards' by Michael Rhodes, if you can find a copy; it has track diagrams, often showing siding allocation, for most of the 'Modernisation Plan' yards, as well as other significant ones. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNERGE Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 Here's a start.. DaveF seems to be the only one who captured a sequence of photo's of a train arriving at the north end of Whitemoor Yard.. Note the train is signalled into the up hump reception by a miniature arm with no route indicator. He could be heading into any one of the ten reception roads. http://www.flickr.com/photos/34800790@N04/9107331911/in/photolist-eSMstZ-bsFHYS-fTjX1x-bFAFsZ-bFAzzZ-aaQzAh-8gZqsq-9TqS6g-gLL82t-bjsweT-bFAGGr-bFADEP-bsFKS5-bsFJCA-bFALyP-bFAHNi-bFAKkz-8gZqjf-gDXwhC-baH7qP-aroUuu-hq1ut7-e14A5z-bevNsr-8RwxhP-8f2StT-9bJDcA-dhJpk9-9RmZkh-9GC5HY-bVehXg-7YoTEk-bbHpup-bbHpjr-fieZ8R-ct3Pbh-9Q8mvx-af6qiH-aDfbsd-8TkXM1-8TkYqy-7GFaJU-dvr7Ft-8GUWgt-8Tm5ph-c992wm-9UochJ-a7PeRy-9oGqcf-9oGqHf-ccFyAs In the background an 08 is shoving a train over the up hump. Once this is done the 08 will run back via No1 road, 29 and 17 signals into the short headshunt in the foreground. http://www.flickr.com/photos/34800790@N04/9107332401/in/photolist-eSMsCr-eSYSCC-eSYSub-eSMskM-eSMstZ-bsFHYS-fTjX1x-bFAFsZ-bFAzzZ-aaQzAh-8gZqsq-9TqS6g-gLL82t-bjsweT-bFAGGr-bFADEP-bsFKS5-bsFJCA-bFALyP-bFAHNi-bFAKkz-8gZqjf-gDXwhC-baH7qP-aroUuu-hq1ut7-e14A5z-bevNsr-8RwxhP-8f2StT-9bJDcA-dhJpk9-9RmZkh-9GC5HY-bVehXg-7YoTEk-bbHpup-bbHpjr-fieZ8R-ct3Pbh-9Q8mvx-af6qiH-aDfbsd-8TkXM1-8TkYqy-7GFaJU-dvr7Ft-8GUWgt-8Tm5ph-c992wm-9UochJ No16 disc has been cleared to allow the 08 to close up to the rear of the newly arrived train.. http://www.flickr.com/photos/34800790@N04/9107331435/in/photolist-eSMskM-eSMstZ-bsFHYS-fTjX1x-bFAFsZ-bFAzzZ-aaQzAh-8gZqsq-9TqS6g-gLL82t-bjsweT-bFAGGr-bFADEP-bsFKS5-bsFJCA-bFALyP-bFAHNi-bFAKkz-8gZqjf-gDXwhC-baH7qP-aroUuu-hq1ut7-e14A5z-bevNsr-8RwxhP-8f2StT-9bJDcA-dhJpk9-9RmZkh-9GC5HY-bVehXg-7YoTEk-bbHpup-bbHpjr-fieZ8R-ct3Pbh-9Q8mvx-af6qiH-aDfbsd-8TkXM1-8TkYqy-7GFaJU-dvr7Ft-8GUWgt-8Tm5ph-c992wm-9UochJ-a7PeRy-9oGqcf-9oGqHf If there is any interest i'll carry on.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 1, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 1, 2014 Here's a start..Twenty Feet River.jpg DaveF seem to be the only one who captured a sequence of photo's of a train arriving at the north end of Whitemoor Yard.. Note the train is signalled into the up hump reception by a miniature arm with no route indicator. He could be heading into any one of the ten reception roads. http://www.flickr.com/photos/34800790@N04/9107331911/in/photolist-eSMstZ-bsFHYS-fTjX1x-bFAFsZ-bFAzzZ-aaQzAh-8gZqsq-9TqS6g-gLL82t-bjsweT-bFAGGr-bFADEP-bsFKS5-bsFJCA-bFALyP-bFAHNi-bFAKkz-8gZqjf-gDXwhC-baH7qP-aroUuu-hq1ut7-e14A5z-bevNsr-8RwxhP-8f2StT-9bJDcA-dhJpk9-9RmZkh-9GC5HY-bVehXg-7YoTEk-bbHpup-bbHpjr-fieZ8R-ct3Pbh-9Q8mvx-af6qiH-aDfbsd-8TkXM1-8TkYqy-7GFaJU-dvr7Ft-8GUWgt-8Tm5ph-c992wm-9UochJ-a7PeRy-9oGqcf-9oGqHf-ccFyAs In the background an 08 is shoving a train over the up hump. Once this is done the 08 will run back via No1 road, 29 and 17 signals into the short headshunt in the foreground. http://www.flickr.com/photos/34800790@N04/9107332401/in/photolist-eSMsCr-eSYSCC-eSYSub-eSMskM-eSMstZ-bsFHYS-fTjX1x-bFAFsZ-bFAzzZ-aaQzAh-8gZqsq-9TqS6g-gLL82t-bjsweT-bFAGGr-bFADEP-bsFKS5-bsFJCA-bFALyP-bFAHNi-bFAKkz-8gZqjf-gDXwhC-baH7qP-aroUuu-hq1ut7-e14A5z-bevNsr-8RwxhP-8f2StT-9bJDcA-dhJpk9-9RmZkh-9GC5HY-bVehXg-7YoTEk-bbHpup-bbHpjr-fieZ8R-ct3Pbh-9Q8mvx-af6qiH-aDfbsd-8TkXM1-8TkYqy-7GFaJU-dvr7Ft-8GUWgt-8Tm5ph-c992wm-9UochJ No16 disc has been cleared to allow the 08 to close up to the rear of the newly arrived train.. http://www.flickr.com/photos/34800790@N04/9107331435/in/photolist-eSMskM-eSMstZ-bsFHYS-fTjX1x-bFAFsZ-bFAzzZ-aaQzAh-8gZqsq-9TqS6g-gLL82t-bjsweT-bFAGGr-bFADEP-bsFKS5-bsFJCA-bFALyP-bFAHNi-bFAKkz-8gZqjf-gDXwhC-baH7qP-aroUuu-hq1ut7-e14A5z-bevNsr-8RwxhP-8f2StT-9bJDcA-dhJpk9-9RmZkh-9GC5HY-bVehXg-7YoTEk-bbHpup-bbHpjr-fieZ8R-ct3Pbh-9Q8mvx-af6qiH-aDfbsd-8TkXM1-8TkYqy-7GFaJU-dvr7Ft-8GUWgt-8Tm5ph-c992wm-9UochJ-a7PeRy-9oGqcf-9oGqHf If there is any interest i'll carry on.. Yes there is - but slightly OT - is (was) 13 released by 10 from either position? The reason for asking is that the diagram gives the impression of a very short distance between 13 and the LoS - which then leads to asking if that was provision in order to set back out of one of the reception roads with something longer than just the hump pilot? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted January 1, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 1, 2014 I can give you chapter and verse on Tinsley hump siding allocation if you like! Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jamie92208 Posted January 1, 2014 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted January 1, 2014 I can give you chapter and verse on Tinsley hump siding allocation if you like! Mike. That would be interesting. Thanks Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivercider Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 Following the introduction of TOPS it was possible to create an automatically generated shunting instruction on shunt lists. Each road in the yard could be allocated to a specific traffic, destination or shunting tag. A shunting tag was an instruction for the routing of traffic. For example a 21t hopper of coal for Exmouth Junction CCD ( TOPS code 83441) stood at Toton, would have a tag of 760 (Severn Tunnel Junction) On arrival at Severn Tunnel Junction the tag would become 830 (Exeter Riverside), then on arrival at Riverside would have a local shunting tag (eg 92c). In Bristol we did not use automatic shuntlist allocation as the largest yard carrying out sorting, KIngsland Road, was too small. There were more trains and destinations than there were sorting roads available. Even so one road was always allocated to the major traffic flows, no. 1out was for East Depot Engineers, 2out was cripples for Barton Hill, and I think 9out was for the daily Swindon service. cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNERGE Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 I can give you chapter and verse on Tinsley hump siding allocation if you like! Mike. Yes please! Get it out here for the record! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNERGE Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 Yes there is - but slightly OT - is (was) 13 released by 10 from either position? The reason for asking is that the diagram gives the impression of a very short distance between 13 and the LoS - which then leads to asking if that was provision in order to set back out of one of the reception roads with something longer than just the hump pilot? I think the headshunt could cope with a couple of 08's waiting their turn to push trains over the hump. I'm sure Andy Rush posted something about pilot allocation throughout Whitemoor Yard somewhere but i can't find it. I think Up Hump Reception had two pilots allocated at certain parts of the day. There was provision to pull short cuts up to 13 disc or go just beyond to the LOS. Longer cuts had to go over to the Down Joint. This arrangement with the new box came about to enable the Down Hump to be closed. All down trains requiring hump shunting were drawn up towards 32 signal and set back using 8, 7A and 7B into Up Hump Reception. If the pilot headshunt was occupied the train loco would need to come off and go to at least 13 disc before being allocated a route for disposal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
40044 Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 Following the introduction of TOPS it was possible to create an automatically generated shunting instruction on shunt lists. Each road in the yard could be allocated to a specific traffic, destination or shunting tag. A shunting tag was an instruction for the routing of traffic. For example a 21t hopper of coal for Exmouth Junction CCD ( TOPS code 83441) stood at Toton, would have a tag of 760 (Severn Tunnel Junction) On arrival at Severn Tunnel Junction the tag would become 830 (Exeter Riverside), then on arrival at Riverside would have a local shunting tag (eg 92c). In Bristol we did not use automatic shuntlist allocation as the largest yard carrying out sorting, KIngsland Road, was too small. There were more trains and destinations than there were sorting roads available. Even so one road was always allocated to the major traffic flows, no. 1out was for East Depot Engineers, 2out was cripples for Barton Hill, and I think 9out was for the daily Swindon service. cheers Same for when I was at Arpley, certainly from the late 1990s we would use the long electrified roads for the likes of 6M27 Mossend to Willesden, the shorter roads for the local trips, the extension sidings for engineers trains (so that the ballast trip locos could do their own shunting if required), the through roads to Arpley Jct for trains going off via Latchord. Cripples and long term stored wagons would find their way 'round the corner' into the least accessible part of the yard. Northbound trains, once formed, would be either dragged onto one of the shunting necks or up to Walton Old Jct. The road allocation from TOPS would be routinely disregarded in favour of operational need at the time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 1, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 1, 2014 Following the introduction of TOPS it was possible to create an automatically generated shunting instruction on shunt lists. Each road in the yard could be allocated to a specific traffic, destination or shunting tag. A shunting tag was an instruction for the routing of traffic. For example a 21t hopper of coal for Exmouth Junction CCD ( TOPS code 83441) stood at Toton, would have a tag of 760 (Severn Tunnel Junction) On arrival at Severn Tunnel Junction the tag would become 830 (Exeter Riverside), then on arrival at Riverside would have a local shunting tag (eg 92c). In Bristol we did not use automatic shuntlist allocation as the largest yard carrying out sorting, KIngsland Road, was too small. There were more trains and destinations than there were sorting roads available. Even so one road was always allocated to the major traffic flows, no. 1out was for East Depot Engineers, 2out was cripples for Barton Hill, and I think 9out was for the daily Swindon service. cheers Ah 'son of geometric blocking' which was a marvellous piece of TOPS cleverness which came along in 1974 and sort of did not only that but a lot more as it would (if told) monitor the number/length of wagons going into each road and give an alternative once the road was full. One of the Regional TOPS Implementation Team members tried to explain it to one of the Yard Chargemen at Westbury only to be told that as a Head Shunter he had been expected, and able, to do all that in his head - with about ten times as much traffic But apparently Riverside Yard at Exeter did try geometric blocking - for a whole month! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted January 1, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 1, 2014 ....and wondering if the 3 magpies serves kids... They did, but the meat pies were tastier. Mike. Yes please! Get it out here for the record! Excuse me?? Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNERGE Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 They did, but the meat pies were tastier. Mike. Excuse me?? Mike. I'd love to know more about Tinsley. There is very little out there that tells how it really worked. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted January 1, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 1, 2014 I'd love to know more about Tinsley. There is very little out there that tells how it really worked. Just talking about this is bringing back the nights in the 60's and 70's parked up in the diesel depot car park just watching things happening, nothing fancy or fantastic, just a railway facility going about it's business. It's a bit tricky to explain properly without access to trackplans, as there was a main yard and secondary yard both with their own humps, private sidings for the many steelworks, not to mention the express freight yard and of course the reception sidings all working in perfect harmony. The main yard had more than 50 sidings and the secondary 25. I can reel off the siding allocations if you think that is the way to go about it, you can even have signal numbers if you like!, don't know how you would like it presented. In the middle of all that lot of course were two diesel servicing facilities also. Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted January 1, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 1, 2014 i hope these pics arent out of place in this thread but i took them a few weeks back in bescot, the shunter was explaining how they had removed the hump signals during the closure of walsall box and the down tower but had left one in situ looking from the hump towards the sidings (with new led ground signals) hump signal down tower hump cabin not sure if this part of the hump sidings? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vin Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 Hi all, I have a British Railways Eastern Region guide to Tinsley marshalling yard dated 1965. It has a description of how it works and a siding allocation for the main and secondary yards. As my scanner isn't playing ball today. I'll type it out. The numbers are the siding number with no.1 starting at the M1 motorway side and no. 53 finishing on the TMD side. 1 - Toton unfitted 2 - Toton fitted 3 - chapeltown south. Stations to Barsley 4 - Norton junction fitted 5 - norton junction unfitted 6 - Mas S.S. (inc westgate bch, Holmes, C.H. Gas, I&I walker, SYCC). 7 - park gate I & S (rawmarsh) 8 - barrow hill, sheepbridge, stations to stantongate. 9 - washwood Heath unfitted 10 - washwood Heath fitted 11 - Treeton, Orgreaves, woodhouse mill 12 - healey mills fitted 13 - healey mills unfitted 14 - Chaddesden unfitted 15 - stourton unfitted 16 - Feed Road - traffic for Derby St.marys, Chaddesden fitted, stourton fitted. 17 - empty unlabeled hyfits 18 - Lincoln 19 - Hull fitted 20 - Hull Mineral 21 - York Mineral 22 - York fitted 23 - feed road - traffic for Lincoln fitted, New England fitted, frodingham fitted, Goole 24 - Parkway, Leicester, Brent, St Pancras, kings cross, Carlisle, sighthill. 25 - New England unfitted 26 - frodingham unfitted 27 - Rotherham road. ( inc. kilnhurst, roundwood 11" mill, aldwalke new mill). 28 - empty unlabeled vanfits 29 - empty unlabeled steel carrying wagons 30 - empty unlabeled mineral wagons 31 - harvest lane, neepsend gas, oughtybridge 32 - grimesthorpe sundries 33 - grimesthorpe full wagon loads (S to S) 34 - Barnsley jct. 35 - South Wales 36 - deepcar 37 - wadsley bridge 38 - Darnall C & W shops 39 - mottram fitted 40 - mottram unfitted 41 - guide bridge/ Birkenhead 42 - Brunswick 43 - Feed road - fitted traffic for Colwick, Doncaster, whitemoor 44 - Colwick unfitted 45 - broughton lane, ecclesfield east, smithywood 46 - Ickes (inc. meadow hall, wincobank station yard) 47 - Doncaster unfitted 48 - Whitemoor unfitted 49 - brake vans for main yard west 50 - mechanical feed road 51 - emergency feed road 52 - E. S. C scrap 53 - E.S.C other While typing this I noticed that the unfitted and fitted sidings for one destination are very random, they aren't order in any way? The other unanswered question is some of the destinations such as the ones on siding 6, 7 & 46. What and where are they? Happy new year Vin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForestPines Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 6 = ex-Midland lines around Rotherham, off the Old Road or north of Rotherham itself 46 = similar, but off the Sheffield-Rotherham line. This is I admit off the top of my head. They would have probably departed in opposite directions - 6 eastwards via Treeton N Jn, 46 probably west and reversing at Brightside. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted January 2, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 2, 2014 6 - Mas S.S. (inc westgate bch, Holmes, C.H. Gas, I&I walker, SYCC). 7 - park gate I & S (rawmarsh) 46 - Ickes (inc. meadow hall, wincobank station yard) While typing this I noticed that the unfitted and fitted sidings for one destination are very random, they aren't order in any way? The other unanswered question is some of the destinations such as the ones on siding 6, 7 & 46. What and where are they? Happy new year Vin Thanks, saves me part of a job. The siding layout may seem random, but they were laid to effect the easiest and simplest shunt of incoming trains, if a train coming in had mixed traffic then it would probably be for sidings which were adjacent to each other to save time and effort. This was worked out when the layout of the yard was initialised. On to your queries; 6. Masborough (Rotherham) Sorting Sidings. Rotherham Westgate branch, ie Booths scrapyard and any wagon load traffic for Westgate itself. Holmes junction, along the Sheffield line, entry point for scrapyards. Isaac and Israel Walker, manufacturers of foundry blacking, private siding to the north of Masborough Station. C.H. Gas, EMGB gas depot? (why it should be called CH Gas I don't know), north of I & I Walker. SYCC, not sure of this one, too early to be South Yorkshire County Council, could be the small private siding at the west side of Masborough station, could also be the South Yorkshire Chemical Company, but I don't know where their siding was, unless it was the aforementioned. 7. Parkgate Iron and Steel. Sidings around Parkgate and Rawmarsh station adjacent to Aldwarke Junction. 46. Ickles, (not Ickes). On the GC bit of Rotherham between Central station and Tinsley yard. Meadowhall would be traffic for EMGB and Yorkshire engine company, Wincobank station yard was overspill traffic for Medowhall and the Chapeltown branch. Bear in mind the construction of Aldwarke junction was some way off, so splitting of sidings to GC and LMS was necessary at this time, once it was constructed the siding allocation changed somewhat. Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonny777 Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 I cannot add anything to this discussion, but have always been fascinated by the workings of marshalling yards. I would just like to say that, for me, this is one of the best threads that I have seen in years - so thanks very much to all the contributors for their efforts in typing out lengthy explanations. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jamie92208 Posted January 2, 2014 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted January 2, 2014 I cannot add anything to this discussion, but have always been fascinated by the workings of marshalling yards. I would just like to say that, for me, this is one of the best threads that I have seen in years - so thanks very much to all the contributors for their efforts in typing out lengthy explanations. Can I add to that. This started off as a bit of idle curiosity while watching a webcam of a vast modern marshalling yard still busy humping trains in both directions 24/7. However it has brought some fascinating facts outinto the open. Vin's Tinsley info is fabulous and answers a lot of questions. presumably the fitted/unfitted sidings meant that traffic could either be sent out as 2 separate trains or a combined one with a fitted head depending on the amount of traffic. It also reminds us of how many freight destinations we have lost. Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AberdeenBill Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 Tinsley used state-of-the-art 1960s automation: Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AberdeenBill Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 Sorry, forgot to add a bit of Tinsley trivia: the yard was opened by Lord Beeching Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jamie92208 Posted January 2, 2014 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted January 2, 2014 Tinsley used state-of-the-art 1960s automation: Bill That's a fabulous bit of film Bill thanks for posting it. I saw the addo system in use at kingmoor but it makes more sense to see the whole thing explained. I believe that gerard Fiennes was a great fan of the Dowty system. It's certainly a lot safer than the system I saw in action at Toton in 1971 where the primary and secondary retarders were operated from the cabin by a man pulling levers with the force being applied relying on his judgement. The cust were then followed dwon the sorting sidings by men with brake sticks. Not a very safe system. I've seen somewhere that there were so many accidents there in Midland railway days that they ahd an ambulance van ready to transport casualties to the nearest hospital by special train. Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted January 2, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 2, 2014 Sorry, forgot to add a bit of Tinsley trivia: the yard was opened by Lord Beeching Bill Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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