Unusual coal wagon. Can anyone identify it?

[Steve B]

Found this pic of an unusual coal wagon being unloaded by hand at Barnoldswick.  Never seen one like it that I can remember.  Anybody able to give me some information?

Edited January 22, 2014 by Steve B

[Fat Controller]

Found this pic of an unusual coal wagon being unloaded by hand at Barnoldswick.  Never seen one like it that I can remember.  Anybody able to give me some information?

Unfortunately, your picture doesn't seem to have been attached.

[Mark Saunders]

Steve

 

It appears to be an end door only 20 ton mineral, the only example that I know of are Swansea Corporation who had a number of them but I always believed they had doors at both ends rather than just one end!

 

Mark Saunders

[Welly]

Look at the logs propping the doors open! Those were the days when Health and Safety was associated with naturism....

[Fat Controller]

Steve

 

It appears to be an end door only 20 ton mineral, the only example that I know of are Swansea Corporation who had a number of them but I always believed they had doors at both ends rather than just one end!

 

Mark Saunders

I wonder what Swansea wanted with them; perhaps coal to Tir John PS?  I can see them being of use for export coal, using coal hoists, or to somewhere with a rotary tippler, but not anywhere else. I think I may have seen one in the late 1960s, in one of the mixed rakes of 21-tonners that worked to Carmarthen Bay power station. These seemed to throw up almost any sort of 21t and 24.5t mineral that was 'serviceable' (in the loosest sense)- loco coal wagons from everyone but the Southern amongst them.

[Mark Saunders]

Most likely built for a gas works/power station where they were for end tipping only, so were not pooled during WW2 as they were no use for coal merchants etc, and most likely dating from the  20's as the end door looks like the non straightened ones. 

 

Well when the coal merchant saw this wagon he must have been   as have to shovel all that coal the full length of the wagon, must have taken a lot longer than normal.

 

This wagon would have been Pooled as it had an End Door; only wagons without doors or fittings for doors were "Non Pool", also it is not lettered/branded as a PO wagon would be post nationalisation.

 

Mark Saunders

[edward66]

Interesting to see the horse cart presumably used for coal delivery even though the photo must be post 1948, still quite a few horses employed like this well after WWll.

 

Edward

[Mark Saunders]

This may be one of 130 wagons built for "Consolidated Fisheries" in 1935 by" Metropolitan Railway Carriage & Wagon" see Turton Vol 7 page 35 for full details.

 

This is also one of the liveries Hornby chose for their RCH 20t RCH all steel mineral.

 

Mark Saunders

[swampy]

This may be one of 130 wagons built for "Consolidated Fisheries" in 1935 by" Metropolitan Railway Carriage & Wagon" see Turton Vol 7 page 35 for full details.

 

This is also one of the liveries Hornby chose for their RCH 20t RCH all steel mineral.

 

Mark Saunders

 There is a similar 21T twin end-door only wagon shown in Larkin's Pre-Nat. Freight wagon book, page 8, number P150620K (aside:what does the 'K' mean?), and registered with the GWR as 6334. Only similar though, in that it has a slightly rounded raised end above the visible end door.. The photo comments mention that it was also built in 1935, but by the Midland Railway Carriage and Wagon Company". It seems too much of a coincidence that the initials are the same, so perhaps the solebar builder's plate said "MRC&WC". 

[Mark Saunders]

 There is a similar 21T twin end-door only wagon shown in Larkin's Pre-Nat. Freight wagon book, page 8, number P150620K (aside:what does the 'K' mean?), and registered with the GWR as 6334. Only similar though, in that it has a slightly rounded raised end above the visible end door.. The photo comments mention that it was also built in 1935, but by the Midland Railway Carriage and Wagon Company". It seems too much of a coincidence that the initials are the same, so perhaps the solebar builder's plate said "MRC&WC". 

 

The one in Larkin is an ex  Swansea Corporation end door only and the "K" suffix is for the benefit of clerical staff so as to be able to easily identify a 21ton wagon in a list of numbers!

 

Mark Saunders

[Mark Saunders]

This photo is available in several collections but most easily found is the HMRS one!

 

Mark Saunders

 

[Fat Controller]

Curious; end door at one end only, no side doors, but the markings indicate the presence of a bottom door. That's the first time I've seen that on a 21-tonner.

[bertiedog]

Look at the logs propping the doors open! Those were the days when Health and Safety was associated with naturism....

Was not the magazine called Health and Efficiency, not that us kids used to read it of course....only out of an interest in nature in the raw.

[phil_sutters]

This photo is available in several collections but most easily found is the HMRS one!

 

Mark Saunders

 

Consoladated end & bottom door only 20t.jpg

This one doesn't have the horizontal line of rivets a foot or so up from the bottom of the body. If you look at the OP photo, is there an inward slope, below the rivet line, at the very far end, and probably only the far end, as it doesn't seem to be repeated at the open end?

 

Having had a look around,  it has a resemblance to these LNWR 20tonners, which were used for iron ore traffic in Cumberland - not too far from Barnoldswick, Lancs. http://www.lnwrs.org.uk/Wagons/hoppers/Diag091.php

Perhaps they were another version of that design.

Edited January 9, 2017 by phil_sutters

[Mark Saunders]

This one doesn't have the horizontal line of rivets a foot or so up from the bottom of the body. If you look at the OP photo, is there an inward slope, below the rivet line, at the very far end, and probably only the far end, as it doesn't seem to be repeated at the open end?

I suspect that the original one has been repaired and had the lower part of the body panels replaced!

 

Mark Saunders

[pete_mcfarlane]

This may be one of 130 wagons built for "Consolidated Fisheries" in 1935 by" Metropolitan Railway Carriage & Wagon" see Turton Vol 7 page 35 for full details.

 

Presumably these wagons were moving coal for their fleet of coal fired trawlers. It would explain the lack of side doors, if they were being mechanically unloaded (presumably directly in to the ship's bunker). 

 

Curious; end door at one end only, no side doors, but the markings indicate the presence of a bottom door. That's the first time I've seen that on a 21-tonner.

On the other hand it has lifting link brake gear, which implies that there's a brake rod running underneath the vehicle and no bottom doors. Unless the doors were somehow arranged to clear the rod, which I suppose is possible on a longer vehicle like this. 

[jim.snowdon]

Presumably these wagons were moving coal for their fleet of coal fired trawlers. It would explain the lack of side doors, if they were being mechanically unloaded (presumably directly in to the ship's bunker). 

 

 

On the other hand it has lifting link brake gear, which implies that there's a brake rod running underneath the vehicle and no bottom doors. Unless the doors were somehow arranged to clear the rod, which I suppose is possible on a longer vehicle like this.

 

The RCH designs for the 20T wagons featured 4 bottom doors, so the brake shaft passes clear of them.

 

There was no requirement for wagons to be fitted with side, or end or bottom, doors so if the original owner didn't need them, they weren't fitted. Wagons with "missing" doors are not uncommon when their owners routinely unloaded them by end or rotary tipping, however end plus bottom doors does seem a slightly unusual combination, especially as the bottom doors do not permit self unloading in the way they do with a hopper.

 

Jim

[Fat Controller]

The RCH designs for the 20T wagons featured 4 bottom doors, so the brake shaft passes clear of them.

 

There was no requirement for wagons to be fitted with side, or end or bottom, doors so if the original owner didn't need them, they weren't fitted. Wagons with "missing" doors are not uncommon when their owners routinely unloaded them by end or rotary tipping, however end plus bottom doors does seem a slightly unusual combination, especially as the bottom doors do not permit self unloading in the way they do with a hopper.

 

Jim

I wonder how big those bottom-doors were in this case? The bottom-doors in the 16-tonners would allow a proportion of the load to discharge by gravity; after that it would be a couple of men with shovels 'encouraging' the remainder to fall out. Hard graft, but easier than shovelling over the sides. However, having seen a huge number of 21-tonners (they were more popular than 16-tonners for shipping coal to Swansea in the 1960s and 1970s), I can't say I've ever noticed one with bottom doors; all possible combinations of end and side doors, but no bottom doors.

We used to get a lot of ones without end doors- former Loco Coal wagons- but these were confined to the flow to Carmarthen Bay power station, which used a rotary tippler. I even, after the demise  of steam nationwide, saw an ex-LNER one, freshly repainted, with 'LOCO COAL' adorning the space between the cupboard doors on the sides.

[jim.snowdon]

Brian,

 

According to the RCH drawings, 3' 4.5" x 1' 9". As for bottom doors on BR-built steel mineral wagons, it seems not to have taken BR very long to realise that they were not worth retaining. The majority of the 16T wagons were built without them, and the later 21T and 24.5T designs never had them.

 

Jim