More Swindon And Derby DMUs

[MJI]

It may be worth using letraset or printing them on ink jet waterslide paper, or even laser compatable waterslide paper

[Brian Kirby]

It may be worth using letraset or printing them on ink jet waterslide paper, or even laser compatable waterslide paper

Nah, as far as i'm concerned MFI, that's not worth it for just two 4-digit headcodes, especially when only two digits are in use. After all the messing around getting the computer print styles and sizes right, then there's the bother of applying your transfers and hiding the joins and edges. I would only consider doing that for many multiples, my hand drawn efforts took five minutes. Job done. (Bish-bash-bosh)             BK 

[the penguin of doom]

Hi Brian.

 

Just found this thread, some super work going on here and the units are instantly recognisable in your models.

 

Can I also ask how you will be going about modelling the underframe detail? I've used Lima spares on my Trans - Pennine, but I'm not sure how they actually look compared to the real thing so am looking for some inspiration.....

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

Edited April 13, 2014 by the penguin of doom

[the penguin of doom]

Hi Brian.

 

I've just had a chance to re-read the thread and note the discussion on exhaust pipes on the previous page. If it's any use to you, I cast some exhaust stacks from resin for my Trans - Pennine and will have a number spare. You can check how they look over the last few pages of my thread. Maybe a bit late for these ones, but you'd be welcome to a few if you need them. Alternatively, I still have the mould which would probably travel through the post better.

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

[Sc59401]

Hello Brian, I'm still enjoying the updates!  Regarding Sean's question about underframe detail, if it's of any interest I'm still working on my MTK 'aid to scratchbuilding' model of a six-car Edinburgh-Glasgow 79xxx unit.  As the underfloor layout is unique to these units but uses common components I sawed up the MTK castings (which appear to be based on a Lima Class 117 underframe but modified to resemble Class 123) to give me a stock of engines, fuel tanks, radiators, battery boxes etc.  These were then modified and repositioned under the floors and I added exhaust pipes and horizontal silencers made from brass rod and tube respectively, then added EP valve boxes etc made from Plastikard.  There are still a few details to be fitted but (at risk of hijacking Brian's thread again) I could post a couple of pictures here. 

[Brian Kirby]

Hi Sean and John,

     Sean and I are both working on the same family of units, which do share some common conponents and build styles, so with us comparing notes, we will be able to help each other. Thanks for the offer of your exhaust pipes, but i'm happy with my later variety, once i'd estabilished the correct style, my first version can be used on other units. As you will know, pics of the inner ends are hardly plentiful, save the preserved 5xxxx cars, i also found the confusing shot of a Class 120 exhaust, which had gained extra cowling protection later in life. In contrast to your etched sides build, i've taken the all-plastic approach mainly because of re-using some old Southern Pride roofs, chassis and re-profiled inner ends, adding plasticard sides and Replica windows cut down, bogie frames are Hornby. Still haven't decided on couplings, the larger American Kadee buckeyes don't have enough room under the gangway to cope with reverse curves/crossovers, although I could try their narrow gauge versions or similar?

      I've just been making a start on some of the lettering and numbering of my painted bodies, then I can varnish and start plugging the windows in. Once I've got these four units done, I could dig out the extra blank profiled sides i've now made, giving me the option of another fourteen bodies, which could break down as 3+3+4+4 or 4+4+6, if you get my drift?

                                                                                                                                   Cheers, Brian.

[Brian Kirby]

Hi Everyone,

   It's been a bit quiet on the Inter-City front lately, due to other distractions, however I have lettered up and varnished the 79xxx buffet, so now the first windows can be plugged in (after trimming about one millimetre off the bottom of each). The question is, do I paint the window vanes body colour before fitting or after, i usually opt for the latter? Hen's teeth are more common than colour pics of these buffets in green, so there has been an element of guesswork in things like curtains, i do know from other photos of power cars, that second-class curtains were rather like a mustard colour. I decided on light grey for first-class and worked out from the floorplan and various images, which windows had curtains, using light grey throughout, as seen in the first two photos here. Closer inspection (magnifying glass) of the pic in Morrison's DMU book suggested two shades on the buffet, so I've already changed the bar area curtains to mustard, plus added aluminium corridor handrails where appropriate, shown in the third and fourth pics respectively. Oddly, the curtain colours seem to be the opposite to that i used in Swindon Cross-Country sets? The buffet still needs an interior and underframe detail, plus it has to be slightly lowered.   

 

                                                                             Cheers, Brian.

 

 

 

 

 

[Sc59401]

Looking good Brian.  Funnily enough we were talking about getting curtains made for the rebuilt Sc79443 at Bo'ness last Sunday.  We have large scale prints of official B&W photographs which show thin light-coloured curtains in the compartments while in the buffet area they are made of a darker and heavier material.  The buffet curtain pelmets were decorated with pink and white vertical stripes although that might be going too far in model form!

 

Wearing my historical research hat, I'd be interested in any photographic proof that 79443 was ever W-prefixed as we found only Sc / SC prefixes when rubbing down the original paintwork.  The number panel is to be varnished and preserved.  Our information is that the car was new to Leith Central on 16 March 1957 (the Edinburgh-Glasgow service was dieselised from January 1957) and spent some months at Ayr during its early career.  We believed that of the buffet cars only 79440 and 79441 worked on WR (with the eight intermediate driving cars there along with four leading cars allowing buffet access from anywhere in a 6- or 9-car formation), however I expect that we don't have the whole story.  Whatever the truth it is of course your railway  :-)

Edited May 8, 2014 by Sc59401

[Brian Kirby]

Quite right, the number is a cock-up on my part, i was looking at pics of your 79443 and just automatically copied the number without thinking. Easily fixed, i'm also considering whether to number one side with ScR numbers, or just leave it as pure WR? There was an element of regional mix, WR 79xxx were borrowed by ScR for trials, plus ScR numbered 79xxx could be seen on WR on test, but of course only buffets 79440/1 would carry 'W' prefix. My 5xxxx set will obviously have ScR numbers, as will the 79xxx with 5xxxx buffet hybrid set. These last two sets can be coupled together as another 6-car set for West Ayrshire service, or odd vehicles like the 79xxx DMS cars could go into the 6-car 79xxx set to give variation. I pondered the position of the 79xxx model motor bogies, the three full cab cars

were the obvious choice, but i've decided to fit them to only two, and to one intermediate cab car on the 6-car 79xxx set, so I can form a 3-car WR set with intermediate cabs at both ends. I've never seen a pic of a 5xxxx 126 set on test on the WR, but it may have happened on the M&SWJR north of Swindon, where I do know that their fellow Class 120 Cross-Country sets were tested, one being photographed at Foss Cross, north of Cirencester.

 

                                                                                           Cheers, Brian.  

[Sc59401]

All good stuff Brian.  Of course all the 79xxx Inter-City cars ended up on ScR eventually but some of them carried W-prefixes for a while, in particular the five intermediate DMBSs 79083/4/5/6/9 which went initially to Ayr (and stayed in some cases).  I expect you know that 79441 ended up preserved for many years on the Strathspey Railway as 'Glenfiddich' but it is now scrapped.

 

My MTK 6-car unit has two motor bogies, one in a leading DMBS and one in an intermediate DMBS.  This allows me to run two three-car units or an Edinburgh-Glasgow style formation with two motorised power cars 'double heading' at the front.

[Brian Kirby]

John, apart from the two 5xxxx buffets, were any other 5xxxx vehicles ever "borrowed" for the Edinburgh to Glasgow service, either individually or as 5xxxx sets? We know that various 79xxx vehicles saw use in Ayrshire. I'm fitting one Hornby Ringfield motor bogie (re-wheeled) per 3-car unit, in whatever formation. I have toyed with the idea of fitting Kadee buckeye couplings, but it's difficult to get sufficient swing under the gangways, especially on 3ft radius crossovers, so I may revert to tension-lock couplings on the bogies, which give far more freedom, although I could still try narrow gauge Kadees? For obvious reasons, there's not much point in fitting any automatic couplings to the front of the 79xxx full cabs.    BK

[Sc59401]

Yes indeed Brian, as the 5xxxx DMBS cars were delivered after the DMSs and non-buffet trailers the latter were spare for a while.  My friend who lived in Ayr at the time told me that some of them were stored at Hurlford shed until they went into service.  Somewhere at home I have notes of 5xxxx cars used on the E&G service (I know that 51012 was one of them, it even acquired temporary 'A' stencils over the headcode boxes) and a mixed 79xxx / 5xxxx eight-car special which worked to Dundee.  I don't recall any three-car 5xxxx units among these notes but at the other end of their careers a blue/grey three-car set was photographed in Princes Street Gardens in 1981 so I suppose anything's possible.  I'll have a look in the archives!

 

Regarding couplings, I have used Kadee No 5s on my Inter-City units but fitted on the bogies (I know some users don't recommend this), lower than the Kadee recommended height and with the tails modified or removed altogether.

[the penguin of doom]

Hi Brian.

 

I really like the tone of your paintwork, very reminiscent of how the DMU's looked. Hardly ever shiney, but generally clean. I assume it's egg shell varnish but it looks right.

 

One assumes you have used the Fox transfer sets? When I did my first Trans - Pennine build about 15 years ago, I had to make the word "BUFFET" from the letters "R", "U", "E" and "L" as I recall as, back then, the correct colour and font were not available.....

 

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

[Brian Kirby]

Thanks for the info John, looks like there was a bit of latitude on both routes, so I could marshall up a second 6-car rake, this time using DMS cars behind the driving full cabs. Hi Sean, I like your green car above, how did you achieve the window rims? Creating the "BUFFET" legend must have been a nightmare, i recall back in the dark old days the more limited choices, transfer sheets from Mopok and even MTK waterslide, followed by SMS, forerunners of Modelmaster?. PC/now HMRS sheets never properly covered DMUs and their 1960s coach numerals were more yellowy, although I suppose you could always overspray their white numbers? For this job, I dug out my stock of suitable sheets, even finding some Woodhead DMU packs (remember them?), but the quantity of numerals was very limited, most being pre-arranged 5-digit number sets, there were never going to be enough '7's and '9's. Charlie DC Kits produced some handy DMU sheets, again made up numbers, they were waterslide, but with very fine film, so they applied themselves quite nicely, but again not enough for covering '79' numbers. I used the DC Kit "BUFFET" transfers on my previous Cross-Country sets, although the letter spacing was too bunched, i may change them for something better.

  

Well of course "the elephant in the room" was Fox Transfers, I still had part of a DMU straw number sheet, all individual numbers, but it would have to be that way anyway, they are good quality, but I don't like the detachable lower line and webbing attached to each numeral, i find it a nuisance. Another problem is that the 79xxx buffets have 'Kitchen' on two doors, so on 79443/79440 I ended up using HMRS 'Kitchen'. Woodhead 'Buffet' and '1's, and Fox running numbers. All a bit of a cobble up for now, i'll have to see if Fox do 'Kitchen' in straw. 

 

                                                                                      Cheers, Brian.

[Sc59401]

Brian, I've found some of the information I was looking for but not (yet) the E&G formations including 5xxxx cars, however I've uncovered a tantalising reference to one of them mentioning 51011 coupled to 79102.  I think the original information is probably among important personal data recovered from my work PC in a hurry when I was made redundant last year.  I'll keep looking.

 

Meanwhile here are some snippets from two enthusiast friends who were around at the time.  One lived near Ayr depot and the other worked for BR.

 

The only 'Western' cars which came to Ayr on their initial transfer north were 'X2' intermediate DMBSs 79083/4/5/6/9 and trailer buffets 79440/1.  All other 'Western' cars went to Leith to join the 79xxx cars which had gone there new.  Now-preserved 79443 was borrowed by Ayr for a few months but when 59098/9 were delivered new to Ayr 79443 and one of the 'Western' buffets went to Leith.  Buffet services were withdrawn early on the Stranraer route.  The remaining buffet cars ran with the counters locked for about a year before going to Leith.

 

There was a diagrammed morning 8-car working from Ayr to Glasgow which consisted of two X2s and two 5xxxx three-car sets.  Upon arrival in Glasgow this was split into three- and five-car sets, the five-car with its good power to weight ratio often working on the hilly (and now lifted) North Johnstone route via Kilbarchan and Kilbirnie.  On one memorable occasion the multiple working failed between the 79xxx and 5xxxx cars and the two X2s hauled the six 5xxxx cars into Glasgow St Enoch, producing copious amounts of white smoke!  Two other Ayr X2s often worked with a buffet car on the Stranraer line.  This ties in neatly with the first of the following observations from my other eye-witness contact:

 

0745 Girvan to Glasgow St Enoch, 1 July 1960

79084-79440-79085+51047-59405-51026

Note first three cars all ex-Western Region plus leading DMBS 51047 in the middle.

 

1015 special Dundee to Edinburgh Waverley, 5 August 1959

51041-79158-59396-79164-59404-59391-79156-51030

Quite an assortment and including now-preserved trailer composite 59404, which would have been almost new at the time.  51041 must have been just out of the box.

 

All-Sc79xxx formation Edinburgh Waverley to Glasgow Queen Street, 11 September 1961

79110-79162-79472-79444-79168-79097

Both intermediate power cars are DMSs in this set but X2s were also used on the E&G line.

Edited May 15, 2014 by Sc59401

[the penguin of doom]

Hi Brian.

 

Thanks for your comments re my Buffet Car. It was constructed using Southern Pride models Mk1 parts. The window frames were made by Mr Southern Pride, from cut vinyl which was self adhesive. Not strictly prototypical for the Trans - Pennine as they had flush frames but back then you would work with what you had.

 

I have photo's of the full 6 car set, but don't want to hijack your thread. When I started construction of my current attempt, I sold this one to help fund the project.

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

[Brian Kirby]

Hi John,

     Thanks again for the info, i never knew that any vehicles ran as two or five-car, quite a revelation. That Dundee to Edinburgh rake is an incredible mix-up, which is good news, things were obviously quite flexible, at least in the early days. I'm intrigued by the 'X2' code, how did that come about and were there codes for other types? I'm applying more Fox numbers at the moment, after that they can be varnished, and then the following day i can plug-in more windows.

 

Hi Sean, feel free to post any associated pics on this thread, the more the merrier. I'm well acquainted with the Southern Pride vinyl window frames, a real leveller if ever there was one, each coach side tending to take half-an-hour! Forgot to say the other day, yes the finish is satin varnish. Next post i'll explain the titular Derby part of the project. 

 

                                                                                                              Cheers, Brian.

[Sc59401]

The 'X2' design code for the intermediate DMBS was an official BR designation and it is shown with others on the original drawings, many of which we got copied (legitimately) some years ago when they turned up in Derby.  The term was used by Ayr drivers to distinguish the 79xxx power cars from the 5xxxx vehicles as there were detail differences which could cause problems when working in multiple, however I don't know how it came into regular use.  I can get the other codes for you on my next visit to Bo'ness (1 June).  The driver's controls in the 79xxx cars looked like those in the early Derby Lightweights while the 5xxxx cars had similar controls to Blue Square cars.

 

The mixed-up set from Dundee to Edinburgh pre-dates the full introduction of the 5xxxx cars on the Stranraer-Girvan-Ayr-Glasgow route.  It looks as if the new but idle 5xxxx cars were lashed together with some spare 79xxx DMSs to make up the special rake.  Five-car formations could be seen from time to time in later days but these would be due to failure of a power car, when a three-car unit would be coupled to the trailer and remaining working power car.  I can also remember noting (in Troon around 1970) a seven-car formation with a single power car marshalled between two three-car sets.  All seven cars were 5xxxx and plain blue if I recall correctly. 

Edited May 19, 2014 by Sc59401

[the penguin of doom]

Hi Sean, feel free to post any associated pics on this thread, the more the merrier.

Hi Brian.

 

Since you have sanctioned some Trans - Pennine pictures, here's just a couple of the DMCs.....

 

 

 

Back when I made this model, I was very pleased with the result, but having had around 15 years to look back on my skills, I'm confident that my new attempt will be proportionately more accurate. Just need to finish the many jobs around the new house whilst juggling, (not literally), a 10 week old daughter.....

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

[Sc59401]

Apologies Brian, my memory is playing tricks on me.  The BR drawing of the six-car 79xxx set (reproduced in a pull-out section at the back of a BR(WR) handbook for railway staff) does not show the 'X2' etc codes after all.  However I have definitely seen them somewhere and will keep looking.

[Sc59401]

I've now spoken to my friend who lived in Ayr when the 5xxxx Inter-City cars were new.  He tells me that the 79xxx leading DMBS cars, which were never allocated to Ayr, were known as 'X' cars (not 'X1') and as these were probably WR terms there was no corresponding code for the 79xxx intermediate DMS cars which all went new to Leith, although 79168 ended up ay Ayr much later but that's a different story!  I have a vague recollection that the 79xxx trailer cars had 'Y' codes on the diagram but don't quote me.

[Brian Kirby]

Thanks again John for the info, it's all starting to sound like battleship turret terminology, could a six-car unit have had A,B,+ X and Y power cars? My thoughts have recently turned to the dark and confusing issue of underframe detail, my units need some pretend engines and stuff to fill in the void underneath. I knew i had some spare Lima engine bits (two types from 101 and 117) left-over from previous conversions/hatchet jobs, so i dug them out and took this photo.

 

 

The three engine blocks on the left are from Met-Cam power-twins that were changed to power-trailer, the bits on the right are off a 121 DTS conversion. One or both types are Leyland 150hp engines, however one may be BUT/AEC, they were pretty similar and interchangeable, however the wider spaced 117 parts seem to be more applicable for my long underframe IC sets, in fact having studied as many good pics as i could find, the later 5xxxx 126 sets seem to have very similar arrangements to Class 117. Now to explain the Derby part of the thread title, i first considered pinching the engines off my green Derby 4-car 115 unit, which should have slightly bigger engines, but the more i looked at photos, again the 115 seemed to have copied the 117 arrangement, plus the larger engine size was hardly noticeable, so that can remain untouched. I have solved the problem by pinching the engines off my various Class 125 and 127 hydraulic projects, here the arrangements are completely different and will need some more head-scratching when they near completion. John Sc59401 did warn me that early and late Class 126 underframe layouts were completely different, but i'm assuming the engine blocks were all in the same position? I have noticed that Swindon seemed to favour putting fuel tanks further forward on Classes 123,124 and 126.

 

                                                                        Cheers, Brian.

[Brian Kirby]

In my search for donor engine and underframe mouldings i first considered robbing them from a Class 115 unit, which in reality had larger 180hp Albion engines, but photos suggested the existing mouldings do look the part anyway, so i will leave well alone.

 

 

Class 116 came before Class 117 and 118, but all three have basically the same general arrangement, apart from minor details, so again these need to remain as they are.. 

 

 

Salvation came in the shape of two Class 125 Lea Valley unit conversions, which are half built so far. I shall remove the underframe detail from these, as the prototype arrangement is totally different, as are the engines. (Yes, i have still to alter the long windows behind the cabs).       BK

 

[MJI]

In my search for donor engine and underframe mouldings i first considered robbing them from a Class 115 unit, which in reality had larger 180hp Albion engines, but photos suggested the existing mouldings do look the part anyway, so i will leave well alone.

 

CIMG4423.JPG

CIMG4426.JPG

 

Class 116 came before Class 117 and 118, but all three have basically the same general arrangement, apart from minor details, so again these need to remain as they are.. 

 

CIMG4430.JPG

 

Salvation came in the shape of two Class 125 Lea Valley unit conversions, which are half built so far. I shall remove the underframe detail from these, as the prototype arrangement is totally different, as are the engines. (Yes, i have still to alter the long windows behind the cabs).       BK

 

CIMG4432.JPG

 

 

How did you deal with the 4.5mm too small toilet area when you put in a compartment?

 

I stretched the chassis when i did my two trailers

[Brian Kirby]

Hi there Martin, and a very good evening to you,

     Look very carefully at the piccies, the clues are there and the chassis has not been stretched. There's a fair bit more work involved and it's quite fiddly, but the method is to chop up all the donor parts into one door plus one large window sections (or one door plus one pair of small side windows), so you end up with ten or eleven sections. All vertical cuts are on the door-handle side of the doors, so as not to damage the hinges, then just under half-a-millimetre is filed off the vertical edges on all sections. Then resting the various top edges against a steel rule, alignments and positions can be checked, plus the overall length of the "jig-saw" can be checked and more material removed if necessary. When all is well, the sections can be glued together, and it goes without saying that the whole side will require reinforcement strips behind. This method does make doors and windows slightly off-centre, but i find the overall effect pleasing and the body is the correct length. Nobody seems to have spotted the off-centre effect in the photos.

      I remember years ago, a P4 modeller stretched the centre car to get around the problem, but why be so pedantic about track gauge and then make the body so out of scale?          

                                                                                                    Cheers, Brian.