GWR1962 Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 Just thought I would share this with all, I started my oo layout as a DC one and was fortunate to pick up a lot of second hand Peco set track and streamline insulfrog turnouts from a fellow club member. so I had a layout with sets of old insulfrog turnouts laid and in place before I decided to go DCC. Having put in a proper bus with the end filters on each end (something DCC concepts say is essential with insulfrog points) I looked on line and found several ways to improve and use them in DCC, I did what was said and they worked for some of my locos but some still had a lot of trouble getting over them. Not so much shorting out but just loosing power and stopping over the plastic bits. I had used the Hornby staples across the points and had stopped shorts by cutting through metal fishplates and insulating with nail varnish ( if putting down new then use insulating fishplates) at the Y end on the inner rails, cleaned the rails no end yet the problem remained. Gloom and doom. So with the thought of spending a fortune on electrofog points I bought a pot of non solder conductive glue from a USA seller on e-bay, cost £5 including postage. It took just a week to arrive. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=331108826648 I tried one set of points first to test it. I removed the Hornby staples and I carefully rubbed down the plastic sections of the insulfrog point just to give a rough key and lower the profile a little bit. Then I carefully applied a small amount of the glue to the top and side surfaces of the plastic and onto the rails each side. It is dark grey in colour and could be called paint as easily as glue. Given 24 hours to cure it goes very hard and can be sanded gently flat in level with the track if it sticks up a bit. Basically I made an electrofrog point. Out came the most troublesome loco, my 3rd generation Lord of the Isles, which although Hornby have reissued it 3 times still has the basic Triang feel to it! It was a pig to get the decoder in having no room for the chip despite being DCC ready(another story) then ran very badly over the points. ALL IS CURED! It runs very slowly and nicely over the converted points. Delighted! Next the 27xx, same result! I also glued some fishplates on corner sections of set track. I left some where expansion is needed with flexi track. IT can be used to glue wires into split chassis Bachmann DCC conversions too. So onwards and I now have done all the points on my outer circuit and will be doing the inner one today. Don't be fooled by the small pot of glue it goes a very very long way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 If I understand this correctly, you have used this conductive paint to make these points function as live crossing (= electrofrog in Pecoese) and have got the improved operation that comes with live crossings as a result. The longevity of the modification will be interesting. I would expect the conductive coating to break at the join between metal rail and plastic crossing, probably before significantly worn away on the running surface. To overcome that you may need to feed in a little more of the glue periodically, whenever you first notice hesitation from a loco which used to run through the modified point smoothly at dead slow. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelp Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 I must have just been lucky with my Insulfrogs, my Hornby 08 and J94 both go over at a crawl in both directions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWR1962 Posted January 27, 2014 Author Share Posted January 27, 2014 If I understand this correctly, you have used this conductive paint to make these points function as live crossing (= electrofrog in Pecoese) and have got the improved operation that comes with live crossings as a result. The longevity of the modification will be interesting. I would expect the conductive coating to break at the join between metal rail and plastic crossing, probably before significantly worn away on the running surface. To overcome that you may need to feed in a little more of the glue periodically, whenever you first notice hesitation from a loco which used to run through the modified point smoothly at dead slow. Yes, I expect it will, but I have painted the sides as well and its easy to recoat at a later date. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWR1962 Posted January 27, 2014 Author Share Posted January 27, 2014 I must have just been lucky with my Insulfrogs, my Hornby 08 and J94 both go over at a crawl in both directions. I have a lot of old converted dcc locos, many hardwired, only a few had problems mainly due to short wheel base. I have even found ones that have dcc ready on the box falter on my old points before treatment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
corax67 Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 My DCC layout has insulfrog points only on it and I exclusively run short wheelbase loco's - Bachmann 08, 03, J94, 57xx, On30 Porter and a new Hornby Sentinel - never had a stalling issue or power loss . It's all shunting too so very low speed operation - I just ensure everything is clean and it runs & runs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelp Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 Thanks for posting the solution to your problem, certainly worth remembering for the future....just in case. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWR1962 Posted January 27, 2014 Author Share Posted January 27, 2014 My DCC layout has insulfrog points only on it and I exclusively run short wheelbase loco's - Bachmann 08, 03, J94, 57xx, On30 Porter and a new Hornby Sentinel - never had a stalling issue or power loss . It's all shunting too so very low speed operation - I just ensure everything is clean and it runs & runs. Lucky guy, I have a goodly number of locos and 3 or 4 of them are - correction -were difficult, the rest were fine without the modification. I had a long wheel base one that was a staller too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
corax67 Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 It's odd - the same loco's have had outings on a wide range of club layouts over the years with a variety of hand laid and RTR track work but have always been good reliable performers. I have to admit to having a soft spot for a Bachmann loco's though as I have yet to have a bad one but have been frustrated by offerings from Hornby, ViTrains and Hejan over the years. My Heljan 14 hardly ever gets an outing as it has so many running issues and is a pig at times even on a straight piece of yard long flexi track Although I don't have insulfrog problems I will be fitting electrofrog points the the 3 layouts I am finishing off planning at the moment - all boxfile/mini layouts - mainly because the frog switching will also be used to power LED route indication on small repeater boards. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HLT 0109 Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 Just thought I would share this with all, I started my oo layout as a DC one and was fortunate to pick up a lot of second hand Peco set track and streamline insulfrog turnouts from a fellow club member. so I had a layout with sets of old insulfrog turnouts laid and in place before I decided to go DCC. I had used the Hornby staples across the points and had stopped shorts by cutting through metal fishplates and insulating with nail varnish ( if putting down new then use insulating fishplates) at the Y end on the inner rails, cleaned the rails no end yet the problem remained. Gloom and doom. So with the thought of spending a fortune on electrofog points I bought a pot of non solder conductive glue from a USA seller on e-bay, cost £5 including postage. It took just a week to arrive. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=331108826648 I tried one set of points first to test it. I removed the Hornby staples and I carefully rubbed down the plastic sections of the insulfrog point just to give a rough key and lower the profile a little bit. Then I carefully applied a small amount of the glue to the top and side surfaces of the plastic and onto the rails each side. It is dark grey in colour and could be called paint as easily as glue. Given 24 hours to cure it goes very hard and can be sanded gently flat in level with the track if it sticks up a bit. Basically I made an electrofrog point. An interesting solution but presumably you now have to rely on contact between the switch blades and the running rails to get power to the frog? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWR1962 Posted January 29, 2014 Author Share Posted January 29, 2014 An interesting solution but presumably you now have to rely on contact between the switch blades and the running rails to get power to the frog? Yes, they are not fully electrofrog or insulfrog a sort of bastardised middle ground, but they do work. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWR1962 Posted February 5, 2014 Author Share Posted February 5, 2014 Update had to re coat a set of points already so longevity not great, if you do leave a staple in then the point can start to smoke rarer dramatically! Will do until I slowly replace with eletrofrog on the mainline. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfsboy Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Try levelling all the trackwork .I use a heavy brass 8 inch or so bar with a piece of fine wet and dry stuck to the bottom and just smooth all the trackwork . Its also best if you do this to the underside as well before laying .peco points are very uneven when you look at them .It works a treat I find .I also just run a small file through all flangeways etc just to smooth the way ,only a tad . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godders Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 ......................Having put in a proper bus with the end filters on each end (something DCC concepts say is essential with insulfrog points).............. Hi GWR1962, I can't find anywhere in the DCC Concepts documentation that says this. I would be obliged if you can direct me to it. I write this because I think the statement is misleading. I am not saying that filters are not required, I am saying that there is no reason to believe that insulfrog points should require them more than electrofrog points. Cheers Godders Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWR1962 Posted March 25, 2014 Author Share Posted March 25, 2014 Hi GWR1962, I can't find anywhere in the DCC Concepts documentation that says this. I would be obliged if you can direct me to it. I write this because I think the statement is misleading. I am not saying that filters are not required, I am saying that there is no reason to believe that insulfrog points should require them more than electrofrog points. Cheers Godders Indeed I think you are right, at least you made me read it again, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoingUnderground Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Hi GWR1962, I can't find anywhere in the DCC Concepts documentation that says this. I would be obliged if you can direct me to it. I write this because I think the statement is misleading. I am not saying that filters are not required, I am saying that there is no reason to believe that insulfrog points should require them more than electrofrog points. Cheers Godders Richard Johnson, proprietor of DCC Concepts, has been recommending fitting them for many years to all layouts, not just those with insulfrog points. AFAIK, he is the only DCC kit manufacturer who both recommends them and sells them. IMHO they are only worth fitting if you experience problems with runaways. If you don't have any problems don't bother with them. You can make them very cheaply. To be fair to Richard, he does give you the spec fo the resistor and capacitor so you don't have to buy his but could make them yourself from components bought from Maplins, Farnell, RS Components, Conrad, etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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