Traeth Mawr -Building Mr Price's house , (mostly)

[coachmann]

It is legend amongst modellers that they make life hard for themselves when ballasting.

 

1) layout out around 6 - 9 feet of track, cut and fit rail joiners.

2) When happy with position and curvature etc, spray with Railmatch Sleeper Grime and wipe rail heads clean.

3) When dry lift track in one piece if possible and lay aside somewhere. Where the track has been is now obvious from the paint.

4) Brush on PVA (I tried and rejected Copydex), lift track onto the glue and position as quickly as possible (you have around 12 minutes or slightly more)/

5) Sprinkle on 'N' gauge Woodland Scenics ballast and tamp down with palm of hand without disturbing position of track. Check this!

6) Lay lengths of 2"X1" (or 3"X1" if double track) on top of track and add large heavy books. Go for a cuppa.

7) After half an hour, remove weights, carefully vacuum off surplus ballast and re-check alignment and smooth curvature (track is still movable - just) before replacing weights for an hour. 

 

Job done.

 

PS :-   Ballast will not come up to top of sleepers with Peco track but it will with SMP bullhead track. I only use Peco points.

Edited May 22, 2015 by coachmann

[coachmann]

The question of Cambrian platform surfaces has arisen of late on my own layout based on Cambrian and GWR practices around the Ellesmere area. It looks from photos like the railway only laid paving flags in front of brick or stone buildings and immediately under lean-to canopies. The rest appears to have been ash or fine stone. I use cork, as the surface texture is pretty good for representing fine walked-down ash or grit. I spray it light to medium matt yellowish-grey.

[ChrisN]

It is legend amongst modellers that they make life hard for themselves when ballasting.

 

1) layout out around 6 - 9 feet of track, cut and fit rail joiners.

2) When happy with position and curvature etc, spray with Railmatch Sleeper Grime and wipe rail heads clean.

3) When dry lift track in one piece if possible and lay aside somewhere. Where the track has been is now obvious from the paint.

4) Brush on PVA (I tried and rejected Copydex), lift track onto the glue and position as quickly as possible (you have around 12 minutes or slightly more)/

5) Sprinkle on 'N' gauge Woodland Scenics ballast and tamp down with palm of hand without disturbing position of track. Check this!

6) Lay lengths of 2"X1" (or 3"X1" if double track) on top of track and add large heavy books. Go for a cuppa.

7) After half an hour, remove weights, carefully vacuum off surplus ballast and re-check alignment and smooth curvature (track is still movable - just) before replacing weights for an hour. 

 

Job done.

 

PS :-   Ballast will not come up to top of sleepers with Peco track but it will with SMP bullhead track. I only use Peco points.

 

Thank you.  I had heard of your method but it is good to hear it directly.  I had not intended to ballast until I knew everything was running correctly but if there is only a thin layer then that should not be too much of a problem.  The issue that I do see is that the sleepers move fairly freely having been cut but that will be an issue whatever method I use.

Edited May 23, 2015 by ChrisN

[ChrisN]

The question of Cambrian platform surfaces has arisen of late on my own layout based on Cambrian and GWR practices around the Ellesmere area. It looks from photos like the railway only laid paving flags in front of brick or stone buildings and immediately under lean-to canopies. The rest appears to have been ash or fine stone. I use cork, as the surface texture is pretty good for representing fine walked-down ash or grit. I spray it light to medium matt yellowish-grey.

 

Thank you.  That again is very helpful.  I want to look through Cambrian Coast Vol 2 again but that was the conclusion I had come to.  Using cork seems to be a great idea.  I had considered fine sandpaper but someone somewhere had said that you end up sanding your fingers all the time so I thought it might work if it was varnished but cork sounds a much better option.

[coachmann]

Thank you.  That again is very helpful.  I want to look through Cambrian Coast Vol 2 again but that was the conclusion I had come to.  Using cork seems to be a great idea.  I had considered fine sandpaper but someone somewhere had said that you end up sanding your fingers all the time so I thought it might work if it was varnished but cork sounds a much better option.

Is that is a colour album? I am on the lookout for more good colour albums covering the Cambrian and the GWR.

[ChrisN]

Is that is a colour album? I am on the lookout for more good colour albums covering the Cambrian and the GWR.

 

No, I am afraid not.  It is the C. C. Green book in B&W.  I think all my Cambrian books are B&W.

[Anotheran]

Hi Chris,

 

I'm a bit late to the party, but I too prefer the slightly narrower spacing of your two examples.

 

On the subject of the spacer that was linked. That looks a great idea and I think I'll build one. But it will only work for the straight bits (fortunately most of NE) so I'll need to continue to use the flexible card one for the curves.

 

Kind regards, Neil

[ChrisN]

Hi Chris,

 

I'm a bit late to the party, but I too prefer the slightly narrower spacing of your two examples.

 

On the subject of the spacer that was linked. That looks a great idea and I think I'll build one. But it will only work for the straight bits (fortunately most of NE) so I'll need to continue to use the flexible card one for the curves.

 

Kind regards, Neil

 

Neil,

Thanks.  I think most people like the narrower one.  The larger one has 7mm a spacing and the smaller one 5.5mm.  I am interested that Andy Y suggested 7.5mm which is even wider.  The main issue is the points which have a smaller spacing.  I might push it out to 6mm if only because measuring 6mm might be more accurate.  (I am happy to listen to howls of protest and change my mind.)

 

I think I might build a box as well but there is a need to make sure it is square or it will make things worse.  How will sleeper spacing jigs do using Coachman's method, mind you the PVA is down before the track on whatever method.

[Anotheran]

How will sleeper spacing jigs do using Coachman's method, mind you the PVA is down before the track on whatever method.

 

I don't see that there would be any difference in the use of the jig. Coachman's method is more about ballasting than track laying as by doing it in one go he significantly speeds up the process. I've not tried his method yet, but will give it a shot on my plank and make a decision about what to do for NE. From what I see there is lots of benefit in it (particularly in speed), and the only drawback seems to be the thinner layer of ballast not coming up to the tops of the sleepers.

 

When I've used the jig I've used it mainly in preparing the track for laying, not actually once the track is down on the PVA. I cut out the webs, use the jig to re-space the sleepers then lay it on the PVA. I then go along and straighten and correct errant sleepers by eye. I could use the jig here as well but the eye is pretty good at spotting consistency in adjacent spaces as because I used the jig preparing the length of track I have the right number of sleepers for the length so the spaces are already pretty close. However, as you are reducing the spacing for the ends of each track length you may want to use the jig here as well as the eye won't be so good at comparing two spaces that are ten sleepers apart. You also may want to use plasticard for the jig in this case so that you can clean off PVA

 

As for 5.5 or 6 mm... As I said, I'd do whatever looks best to you in combination with your end of length spacing reductions and the fixed spacing on the points. I don't think any inaccuracies you get in measuring 5.5 or 6 will end up being visible to the eye. Looking again at my jig, the measurement over a number of overlapped groups of five and ten tines are all accurate to less than half a millimetre which means that the average error on any of them is less than 0.05 mm, which I wouldn't be able to see. When I made it though, I did measure the longer distances over multiple sleepers and then divide that up when making the tines rather than just going from one end which could multiply any error.

 

Kind regards, Neil

[ChrisN]

I don't see that there would be any difference in the use of the jig. Coachman's method is more about ballasting than track laying as by doing it in one go he significantly speeds up the process. I've not tried his method yet, but will give it a shot on my plank and make a decision about what to do for NE. From what I see there is lots of benefit in it (particularly in speed), and the only drawback seems to be the thinner layer of ballast not coming up to the tops of the sleepers.

 

When I've used the jig I've used it mainly in preparing the track for laying, not actually once the track is down on the PVA. I cut out the webs, use the jig to re-space the sleepers then lay it on the PVA. I then go along and straighten and correct errant sleepers by eye. I could use the jig here as well but the eye is pretty good at spotting consistency in adjacent spaces as because I used the jig preparing the length of track I have the right number of sleepers for the length so the spaces are already pretty close. However, as you are reducing the spacing for the ends of each track length you may want to use the jig here as well as the eye won't be so good at comparing two spaces that are ten sleepers apart. You also may want to use plasticard for the jig in this case so that you can clean off PVA

 

As for 5.5 or 6 mm... As I said, I'd do whatever looks best to you in combination with your end of length spacing reductions and the fixed spacing on the points. I don't think any inaccuracies you get in measuring 5.5 or 6 will end up being visible to the eye. Looking again at my jig, the measurement over a number of overlapped groups of five and ten tines are all accurate to less than half a millimetre which means that the average error on any of them is less than 0.05 mm, which I wouldn't be able to see. When I made it though, I did measure the longer distances over multiple sleepers and then divide that up when making the tines rather than just going from one end which could multiply any error.

 

Kind regards, Neil

 

Neil,

Thank you for explaining your method again.  I have a plan, I think.  I will stick with my cardboard spacer and set up the spacings.  If I then spray with sleeper grime where the sleepers are should be obvious.  No?  I think away from the points the bigger looks better but most of my rail will be near points.  Can the eye tell the difference between 5.5 ad 6mm, and if not why not use 5.5mm?

 

I will try Coachman's method on half a line in the fiddle yard, and top it up with 'Magic'.  I will try 'Magic' on another.  I was going to say there seems no point in laying it, letting it dry and then the fill, water, washing up liquid and PVA method but why not?  So I will. 

 

I have the impression that the ballast is the same level all the way across at the station with no 'dip' but I will go and check.

[Penlan]

Further traffic - Origins.
I have a Wagon Ticket dated 12/7/1952, for 50 sacks of Grain (Barley) in a Van, No. E176151.

From Inverkeilor (North British), just north of Arbroath (my family home),

to Oswestry - W Region, GW Section, via 'Bdgs' 'NB','Kare' 'LNW', 'Warrington'.

Make of those letters what you will, but it's in pencil and typical doctors style.....

.

Yes I know it's 1952, but presumably, like Scottish first potatoes, it wasn't a new line of business exporting to England / Wales, Scotland's wonderful products...... in a North British Van.....

Edited May 22, 2015 by Penlan

[corneliuslundie]

I am not an expert on ballasting, as although I have nearly built several layouts none has ever got that far before fate (and laziness) intervened. However, based on recent experience on the club layout:

1. The little box is a good idea. One of the members brought a commercially produced one in and it helped enormously in getting the ballast even, even without a toothbrush attachment.

2. We used the traditional dilute PVA approach and it worked pretty well. One thing which was crucial was having a water spray which produced a really fine mist. The first one we tried produced something more like rain and was a disaster.

3. BUT a member who was also ballasting for the first time got a bit carried away at the turnouts and glued the switch rails up solid. The gaffer was not amused. He has freed them up after much effort. A different approach is needed especially near the tiebar. I have seen sandpaper suggested for this, but much depends on how you are operating your turnouts, and whether from above or from underneath. I don't have any answers.

4. Once everything has dried use an old pair of SWIMBO's tights in the nozzle of the vacuum cleaner to suck up the loose ballast so you can re-use it (I haven't actually done this but I have often seen it recommended, and certainly at the club there was quite a lot of loose ballast afterwards, even though there was enough on most of the track.)

 

On sleeper spacings, if you were building your own pointwork I would say go for the wider spacing, but because you are using ready-made points I think the narrower is probably better because there is less difference.

 

I too think the ballast looks a bit dark in colour but this may be the photographs and I would not want to judge it without seeing it in the flesh. On ballast colour, there may be places where locos stop regularly where the ballast may be darker in colour - not as much as with diseasels but fires got raked out, cabs washed down etc when trains were stationary. At your period there would not have been any toilets depositing muck on the track. Also, does anyone know what the Cambrian was using for ballast at this period? At one time the spoil heaps from the Van lead mines were used but I am not sure when. I understand that although it was very good as a weekkiller it was also bad for the motion and was eventually dropped.

 

I am watching your efforts carefully as I expect to be ballasting before the end of the summer, once I have sorted out the last turnout control and we are back from Eastern Europe.

 

Kep up the good work.

 

Jonathan

[ChrisN]

Further traffic - Origins.

I have a Wagon Ticket dated 12/7/1952, for 50 sacks of Grain (Barley) in a Van, No. E176151.

From Inverkeilor (North British), just north of Arbroath (my family home),

to Oswestry - W Region, GW Section, via 'Bdgs' 'NB','Kare' 'LNW', 'Warrington'.

Make of those letters what you will, but it's in pencil and typical doctors style.....

.

Yes I know it's 1952, but presumably, like Scottish first potatoes, it wasn't a new line of business exporting to England / Wales, Scotland's wonderful products...... in a North British Van.....

 

Penlan,

Thank you.  I assume that it was either for animal feed or brewing.  There was a brewery in Wrexham.  I could not find a Brewery closer to Traeth Mawr than that.  They must have been desperate as the last I heard they were importing beer from Kent.  (Well, not that desperate as it is good beer.)

 

Did they feed sheep on barley?

[ChrisN]

I am not an expert on ballasting, as although I have nearly built several layouts none has ever got that far before fate (and laziness) intervened. However, based on recent experience on the club layout:

1. The little box is a good idea. One of the members brought a commercially produced one in and it helped enormously in getting the ballast even, even without a toothbrush attachment.

2. We used the traditional dilute PVA approach and it worked pretty well. One thing which was crucial was having a water spray which produced a really fine mist. The first one we tried produced something more like rain and was a disaster.

3. BUT a member who was also ballasting for the first time got a bit carried away at the turnouts and glued the switch rails up solid. The gaffer was not amused. He has freed them up after much effort. A different approach is needed especially near the tiebar. I have seen sandpaper suggested for this, but much depends on how you are operating your turnouts, and whether from above or from underneath. I don't have any answers.

4. Once everything has dried use an old pair of SWIMBO's tights in the nozzle of the vacuum cleaner to suck up the loose ballast so you can re-use it (I haven't actually done this but I have often seen it recommended, and certainly at the club there was quite a lot of loose ballast afterwards, even though there was enough on most of the track.)

 

On sleeper spacings, if you were building your own pointwork I would say go for the wider spacing, but because you are using ready-made points I think the narrower is probably better because there is less difference.

 

I too think the ballast looks a bit dark in colour but this may be the photographs and I would not want to judge it without seeing it in the flesh. On ballast colour, there may be places where locos stop regularly where the ballast may be darker in colour - not as much as with diseasels but fires got raked out, cabs washed down etc when trains were stationary. At your period there would not have been any toilets depositing muck on the track. Also, does anyone know what the Cambrian was using for ballast at this period? At one time the spoil heaps from the Van lead mines were used but I am not sure when. I understand that although it was very good as a weekkiller it was also bad for the motion and was eventually dropped.

 

I am watching your efforts carefully as I expect to be ballasting before the end of the summer, once I have sorted out the last turnout control and we are back from Eastern Europe.

 

Kep up the good work.

 

Jonathan

 

Jonathan,

Thank you.  I will need to make a box even if I use coachman's method I think.  I am not sure how 'misty' my spray is but if I aim it upwards it should separate out the drops from the mist, I think.  Experiment the next time I am ironing.  Points.  Um, yes.  I know that it should be possible but I know that it has to be a different method.  Also you cannot PVA your tie bar.  As to how I operate the points?  I have not finally decided.  It could well be Peco motors but at least two will have to be surface mounted as although I made sure they missed the supports, two I think are over the legs, and if they are not they are too close for comfort.  My wife regularly throws away tights.  One pair is sitting on my layout. 

 

The ballast in all the pictures of the railway looks very pale.  I have read that they had a quarry, and if I remember rightly it was up in the Portmadoc area.  I will scan 'A New History' and check to see if I can find it.  This is too dark but was all there was and I needed to do the experiment.  I will look to see what there is.

[Penlan]

......  I assume that it was either for animal feed or brewing.  ......

The Consignee looks like A.A. Peate Ltd,

... and a quick Google >>> they are still there at Maesbury Hall Mills, Oswestry.

BUT they now seem to be Property Developers, Estate Agents etc., 

However that is being specific, my hint was there is traffic with goods from over the Scottish border to Wales......

Of Course it may be for Welsh Whisky... perhaps even Potcheen, but that's Irish......   

Remember this is a hobby..  

So if you pick up a nice kit, cheaply, for a Scottish Van... There's a reason it's on the layout.

This is why I have around 150 pre-grouping goods vehicles on the layout (OK, some are in stock boxes), the other 100 are PO wagons.....  

I think all the 45 coaches, bar two, are LNWR.

Edited May 22, 2015 by Penlan

[aberdare]

 

.  I will need to make a box even if I use coachman's method I think.  I am not sure how 'misty' my spray is but if I aim it upwards it should separate out the drops from the mist, I think.  Experiment the next time I am ironing.

 

 

 

Hi Chris

 

I use my wifes' old spray scent bottles and all you get is a lovely misty spray, no droplets. I use it to finish off my ballasting and you see the PVA being drawn up through the ballast and sleeper sides.

 

Jim

[ChrisN]

The Consignee looks like A.A. Peate Ltd,

... and a quick Google >>> they are still there at Maesbury Hall Mills, Oswestry.

BUT they now seem to be Property Developers, Estate Agents etc., 

However that is being specific, my hint was there is traffic with goods from over the Scottish border to Wales......

Of Course it may be for Welsh Whisky... perhaps even Potcheen, but that's Irish......   

Remember this is a hobby..  

So if you pick up a nice kit, cheaply, for a Scottish Van... There's a reason it's on the layout.

This is why I have around 150 pre-grouping goods vehicles on the layout (OK, some are in stock boxes), the other 100 are PO wagons.....  

I think all the 45 coaches, bar two, are LNWR.

 

Penlan,

I will certainly be on the lookout now for all sorts of wagons but particularly NBR ones.  If it was sheep feed it would unoad at Traeth Mawr, if it was for a brewery it would just pass through.

[ChrisN]

 

.  I will need to make a box even if I use coachman's method I think.  I am not sure how 'misty' my spray is but if I aim it upwards it should separate out the drops from the mist, I think.  Experiment the next time I am ironing.

 

 

 

Hi Chris

 

I use my wifes' old spray scent bottles and all you get is a lovely misty spray, no droplets. I use it to finish off my ballasting and you see the PVA being drawn up through the ballast and sleeper sides.

 

Jim

 

 

Jim,

Umm, my wife does not use sent, it males some bloke in her life feel ill.     I will just have to find something else.

[ChrisN]

I went up into the bedroom where the layout is and thought, "I am ready to lay track."  Well, yes except for I need to attack the scenic track to space the sleepers.

 

Ah yes, and I have to tin and attach wires to the track before it is laid, and tin the rails where they will be soldered to the edge screws.  Lots of wires for points.  (I smell burning plastic.  My soldering is not a pretty sight.)

 

Must buy some wire.

 

And some switches.

 

Need to make a ballaster.

 

Anything else?  Sleeper Grime, must buy some of that as well.  (Is there a Halfords equivalent?  Probably not, I doubt that would sell well on a car.)

 

Drill holes for the wires.  (How do you stop ballast falling down the holes you have drilled for the wires?)

 

Need to decide on the right colour ballast, then buy it.

 

Anything else?  No, think that is it.

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

[Donington Road]

Drill holes for the wires.  (How do you stop ballast falling down the holes you have drilled for the wires?)

 

 

Cocktail sticks

[Penlan]

..... if it was for a brewery it would just pass through.

Ther'in lies a tale or two....

[mike morley]

 

.  (Is there a Halfords equivalent? 

 

I gave my track a quick, light waft with a can of red primer, promptly followed by an even quicker, lighter waft of grey primer.

Has the same effect with the added benefit that it does not end up completely uniform.

[Donw]

For 7mm with deeper sleepers I found that just laying the ballast then using the diluted PVA did not adhere it to the base completely. So in transporting it to exhibitions some pieces fell out. I now prefer to put some PVA down first then spread the ballast on and use more PVA on the top. Although I am intending to try copydex if I can find a local supply.

As I generally pefer to build my track in situ I cannot follow Coachmans method. But at least in 7mm it is easier to get a brush between the sleepers.

 

An alternative is to stain the sleepers first. Spread the copydex/pva lay the sleepers  and sprinkle on ballast  Lay the rails then paint the sides. Top up the ballast and add more copydex/pva.

It does make it difficult to adjust the track work

 

Don

[ChrisN]

Cocktail sticks

 

Thanks Mick.  They are on my shopping list.

I gave my track a quick, light waft with a can of red primer, promptly followed by an even quicker, lighter waft of grey primer.

Has the same effect with the added benefit that it does not end up completely uniform.

 

Mike,

I have grey primer already so that's a help, and in my universe Halfords is next to Maplins.

[Simond]

Halfords is next to Maplins (and just across from B&Q) in Alpha Centauri too

 

Ever feel that H2G2 was a documentary...?