Traeth Mawr -Building Mr Price's house , (mostly)

[Penlan]

1901 census of Barmouth does not list anyone as having the occupation of 'Boat Builder' or such like.  There are carpenters and joiners but I assume that the boat building has shrunk inti insignificance by then.

Boat builders are Shipwrights.  

We still have some in Mousehole and Newlyn, IF you happen to call them a Chippy etc., they soon correct you.

[Simond]

Yes, it seems highly improbable that boat & ship building had died out in Tremadoc Bay a century ago.

 

Yet I'm sure Chris would have noticed "Shipwrights" in the census.

 

Other names for the trade? Can't think of any...

[ChrisN]

Boat builders are Shipwrights.  

We still have some in Mousehole and Newlyn, IF you happen to call them a Chippy etc., they soon correct you.

 

 

Yes, it seems highly improbable that boat & ship building had died out in Tremadoc Bay a century ago.

 

Yet I'm sure Chris would have noticed "Shipwrights" in the census.

 

Other names for the trade? Can't think of any...

 

Penlan and Simon,

I have looked through the list again.  Previously I have been concentrating on people's names and not really taking the professions in.  Actually looking at the list rather than a 'Ctrl F' search I found more railway workers than I had thought, but more of that another time, plus a 'Boat Builder's Apprentice' and his dad is a 'Joiner and Boot Builder'.  Obviously a typo.  Only two though.  One Fisherman a and several sailors/mariners.  The Barmouth boat builders were not very many unless they lived further up the valley.

 

If people are interested I can talk about the census otherwise I will just drop the information in when it is relevant.

[Donw]

I have an old iron I bought in a junk shop for a couple of quid - the copper bit is worth more than that...

 

Never used it. I was told that the GPO linesmen used them. Heat it on a blowlamp, then throw it to the man up the pole, who hopefully catches it (by the right end), solders the joint, and then drops it back to his mate. Repeat...

 

GPO jointers used them on junction cable where the twited joints would be tip soldered. A gas ring was carried in the van and used for Tea making, warming the van, toasting sandwiches in winter, heating water to wash your hands (quite important after handling lead) and would be taken into a manhole to heat the soldering iron (not to mention keeping the manhole warm). 

I doubt very much whether any one would throw one up a pole, tie it to a rope to be pulled up would be more likely.

 

I did have to close a lead joint on a pole in a blizzard. I had to hold my coat out with one hand to sheild the joint while juggling the gas torch and the moleskin with the other. some singeing of the inside of my coat and jumper ensued.

 

Don

[Anotheran]

I'm sure you already have these, but you piqued my curiosity on the census so I had a quick look through the 1891 census for Barmouth and didn't find any boat builders at all.

 

Those with occupations relating to the sea were:

1 Boatman (living next to the Cambrian Railway Station)

5 Mariner

4 Master mariner

 

Related to the railway:

1 Railway carrier

1 Stationmaster

2 Signalman

1 Railway engine driver

1 Retired engine driver (may not have been railway engine, but could have been)

1 Retired station master

1 Railway warehouseman

 

Three others caught my eye as unusual occupations which could give you interesting packages on the goods trains:

1 Confectioner's apprentice

1 Confectioner

1 Retired photographer (remember this is 1891, so pretty early to be retired from such an occupation!)

 

As I said, you may already have all of the above, but I had fun looking!

 

Kind regards, Neil

Edited June 3, 2015 by Anotheran

[ChrisN]

GPO jointers used them on junction cable where the twited joints would be tip soldered. A gas ring was carried in the van and used for Tea making, warming the van, toasting sandwiches in winter, heating water to wash your hands (quite important after handling lead) and would be taken into a manhole to heat the soldering iron (not to mention keeping the manhole warm). 

I doubt very much whether any one would throw one up a pole, tie it to a rope to be pulled up would be more likely.

 

I did have to close a lead joint on a pole in a blizzard. I had to hold my coat out with one hand to sheild the joint while juggling the gas torch and the moleskin with the other. some singeing of the inside of my coat and jumper ensued.

 

Don

 

Don,

Thank you for this.  I gave the 'like' for your information, not that you burnt your coat!

[ChrisN]

I'm sure you already have these, but you piqued my curiosity on the census so I had a quick look through the 1891 census for Barmouth and didn't find any boat builders at all.

 

Those with occupations relating to the sea were:

1 Boatman (living next to the Cambrian Railway Station)

5 Mariner

4 Master mariner

 

Related to the railway:

1 Railway carrier

1 Stationmaster

2 Signalman

1 Railway engine driver

1 Retired engine driver (may not have been railway engine, but could have been)

1 Retired station master

1 Railway warehouseman

 

Three others caught my eye as unusual occupations which could give you interesting packages on the goods trains:

1 Confectioner's apprentice

1 Confectioner

1 Retired photographer (remember this is 1891, so pretty early to be retired from such an occupation!)

 

As I said, you may already have all of the above, but I had fun looking!

 

Kind regards, Neil

 

Neil,

Was this the 1891 or the 1901 census?  I could only find the 1901 one.  If it is the 1891 could you put a link up as it is I would like to see how much more migration of outsiders there was in those ten years.  It is a fascinating snapshot of life in a bygone age.

 

There is also a 'School Photographer'!  There are thre or four Germans working in the hotels, plus an Austrian and two Australians.  There are also a number of people 'Living on my own means' which is interesting plus one honest young lady who put, 'Living on my Father's means'.

 

I am going to summarise the railway staff when I put up my staff pictures which will be when I am building the station building but if people are interested I can give a summary of people and jobs.

[Quarryscapes]

Alan,

Thank you, I will go through these at my leisure.  It is interesting that the 1901 census of Barmouth does not list anyone as having the occupation of 'Boat Builder' or such like.  There are carpenters and joiners but I assume that the boat building has shrunk inti insignificance by then.

 

Yes, the railway really killed it off. 

[Anotheran]

Neil,

Was this the 1891 or the 1901 census?  I could only find the 1901 one.  If it is the 1891 could you put a link up as it is I would like to see how much more migration of outsiders there was in those ten years.

 

Chris,

 

Unfortunately I can't post a link as the census information is from the Ancestry site, which requires a subscription. One of my other hobbies is genealogy, so I have a subscription. I can have a closer look at the weekend and see what I can get you. I'll send a PM on the subject.

 

After my previous post I looked at the previous district in the census (which also covers part of Barmouth) and found a Railway official and two signal fitters. The latter may not be railway signals but I don't know what else they would be referring to that could require two out of the area visitors to be boarding for a while in Barmouth.

 

Kind regards, Neil

[ChrisN]

Chris,

 

Unfortunately I can't post a link as the census information is from the Ancestry site, which requires a subscription. One of my other hobbies is genealogy, so I have a subscription. I can have a closer look at the weekend and see what I can get you. I'll send a PM on the subject.

 

After my previous post I looked at the previous district in the census (which also covers part of Barmouth) and found a Railway official and two signal fitters. The latter may not be railway signals but I don't know what else they would be referring to that could require two out of the area visitors to be boarding for a while in Barmouth.

 

Kind regards, Neil

 

Neil,

Sad as it may seem I have been looking at what names people were called and how many of each.  What I would really be interested in is how may people speak only Welsh, how many only English and how many both as an idea of how the area changed in the ten years to 1901.

 

I would also be interested in the names of the railway staff to see how many moved on, or stayed and got promoted.  The Station Master in 1901 is fairly new.as his two year old son was born in Carno.  He is living with his wife and eight, yes 8, children in a four room bungalow in 1 Cumberland Place which is next to the railway line.  2 Cumberland Place has a 'Railway Wheel Inspector'.  I assume that is a posh name for a 'Wheel Tapper'.  Was he a shunter as well?  These two propertied probably belonged to the Cambrian but, annoyingly, they are in a Cul-de-Sac and Google Street view did not go down there.  Does your Station Master live there?

 

There is also someone who lists his employment as 'Comedian'.  He is the 34 year old son of a Slate Quarry Proprietor.

 

If you are desperate I can email you the spreadsheet as it is free.

 

I will not continue as although it started off as an investigation that was linked to Traeth Mawr it has found a life of its own as I find the information both revealing and fascinating.

[aberdare]

Hi Chris

 

I seem to remember you had a question earlier on platform surfaces, I had a simillar problem working out what was at Tiverton Junction by looking at photographs but the contractors drawings I got from the Swindon & Wiltshire Museum have been very enlightening.

 

Though GW rather than Cambrian there did seem to be a lot of similarities so here is what was there.

 

The original surface around the buildings and up to the footbridge was listed as 'blue tile', looking at the pictures these seem to be the ones with the diamond pattern in them, they appear to be larger tiles with the impression of smaller ones on them. I do know I have a photograph of something similar in the shed somewhere and I'll try to dig it out if I remember. Whether they were a company standard or local I do not know but as I've got that picture from another station I'd guess they were a company standard.

In 1897 when the building work took place some of these were replaced (on the mainline platforms only) by 'artificial stone' these appear to be the paving type and are listed as 2ftx2ft by 1.5" on sand and were supplied by the company.

Outside of the building boundaries and footbridge the platform was ashphalt except for the ramps which were again artificial stone.

[Donw]

Those blue diamond pavers were a GWR speciality they have been discussed in a couple of threads one was on Dyffryn Ardudwy the other was Dave Wenlock's blog. I also noticed they were on one platform at Tywyn. but only seem to have been used for platform edging. The 2x2 paving seem very small compared to photographs of other stations. Also Stationmaster reported that some 4x2 concrete replacement were used by the GWR. For Chris there are some photos in Green book of the platforms at Barmouth jcn taken pre-grouping showing paved areas round the buildings only.

 

Don

[ChrisN]

Jim and Don,

Thank you both.  I did look through C.C. Green's books again, and realised I had already looked at them.  My impression was as Don has said that the stone paving was around the buildings with some other surface further away.  I think I even saw on one platform where there was paving around the shelter on the 'other' platform, opposite the main building.  (I find B&W photos in the wet show up the platforms much better.)

 

I think Barmouth now has much more paving but I am not sure if this is original.  I am not sure now long ago asphalt was used but I would prefer some sort of stone chippings or sand.  Coachman I think suggested cork as this was kinder on the fingers than the sandpaper I was going to use.  Around my building I will use plasticard paving.  This is quite interesting as this was how I decided that the platform of the narrow gauge railway would be surfaced.  Good impression as you go through the building and hope the punters do not notice the change underfoot.

[Anotheran]

Chris,
 
I saw your comment about Cambrian buffer stops over on Hinton Ampner. While I also have no idea what a Cambrian buffer stop looked like the Lanarkshire Models Great Western Long Leg Buffer Stop Kit (BS12) has this in its description:
"This Long Leg design was seen over most of the GWR system and was used at the end of long sidings and headshunts, it is believed to come from a similar Cambrian design."
 
The url for that kit is: http://www.lanarkshiremodels.com/lanarkshire%20models%20and%20supplies%20website_154.htm I've not yet used any of Lanarkshire Models kits (so can't recommend them myself), but I intend to as many threads refer to them as being very good and have recommended them. I couldn't find any other reference to Cambrian amongst the kits, but thought this may be at least one pointer.
 
Kind regards, Neil

Edited June 12, 2015 by Anotheran

[ChrisN]

Chris,

 

I saw your comment about Cambrian buffer stops over on Hinton Ampner. While I also have no idea what a Cambrian buffer stop looked like the Lanarkshire Models Great Western Long Leg Buffer Stop Kit (BS12) has this in its description:

"This Long Leg design was seen over most of the GWR system and was used at the end of long sidings and headshunts, it is believed to come from a similar Cambrian design."

 

The url for that kit is: http://www.lanarkshiremodels.com/lanarkshire%20models%20and%20supplies%20website_154.htm I've not yet used any of Lanarkshire Models kits (so can't recommend them myself), but I intend to as many threads refer to them as being very good and have recommended them. I couldn't find any other reference to Cambrian amongst the kits, but thought this may be at least one pointer.

 

Kind regards, Neil

 

Thanks Neil,

That is vey helpful.  I have looked through the books on the Cambrian lots of times but could not tel you what their buffer stops looked like as I have never paid attention to them, so that will be my next job and then to look at the Lanarkshire Models web site and see how similar they are.

[Donw]

Thanks Neil,

That is vey helpful.  I have looked through the books on the Cambrian lots of times but could not tel you what their buffer stops looked like as I have never paid attention to them, so that will be my next job and then to look at the Lanarkshire Models web site and see how similar they are.

 

I can leave that job of scouring the books to you then Haha! I must admit I hadn't noticed.

 

Don

[mike morley]

The only picture I know of is on page 101 of Rex Christiansen's book (the one with the Nasmyth Wilson 0-4-4T) and as the caption doesn't say where the picture was taken there's no way of being sure it is actually a Cambrian stop block. If it is, the Lanarkshire one will need a few modifications to make it accurate.

Edited June 12, 2015 by mike morley

[ChrisN]

I can leave that job of scouring the books to you then Haha! I must admit I hadn't noticed.

 

Don

 

Don,

All I can say is, watch this space, and if I find anything I will let you know.

[ChrisN]

The only picture I know of is on page 101 of Rex Christiansen's book (the one with the Nasmyth Wilson 0-4-4T) and as the caption doesn't say where the picture was taken there's no way of being sure it is actually a Cambrian stop block. If it is, the Lanarkshire one will need a few modifications to make it accurate.

 

Mike,

Thank you.  I will start there so as to see what I am looking for.  I assume that you have trawled through the books but I will do so again.

 

I keep seeing what I think are Cambrian gradient posts but are what appears to be small fence posts.  I will keep looking though.

[mike morley]

As it happens, I asked the gradient post question a few months ago. The nearest I got to a positive ID was two pictures on page 18 of Mike Lloyd/Wild Swan book about the Tanat Valley. The only question mark is that they are post-Grouping pictures, but, judging by the clothes being worn in one of the pictures, it's not long after the Grouping and I think it reasonable to assume that Swindon would not have got around to replacing trackside furniture that soon after the takeover.

 

. . . And yes I have trawled all the books!

[ChrisN]

As it happens, I asked the gradient post question a few months ago. The nearest I got to a positive ID was two pictures on page 18 of Mike Lloyd/Wild Swan book about the Tanat Valley. The only question mark is that they are post-Grouping pictures, but, judging by the clothes being worn in one of the pictures, it's not long after the Grouping and I think it reasonable to assume that Swindon would not have got around to replacing trackside furniture that soon after the takeover.

 

. . . And yes I have trawled all the books!

 

Mike,

Yes, I knew you had asked the question but I had not found an answer for you.  I will keep looking anyway.

[Donw]

As it happens, I asked the gradient post question a few months ago. The nearest I got to a positive ID was two pictures on page 18 of Mike Lloyd/Wild Swan book about the Tanat Valley. The only question mark is that they are post-Grouping pictures, but, judging by the clothes being worn in one of the pictures, it's not long after the Grouping and I think it reasonable to assume that Swindon would not have got around to replacing trackside furniture that soon after the takeover.

 

. . . And yes I have trawled all the books!

 

The Tanat valley is not necessarily a good guide to the rest of the Cambrian for example the Signals are Tyers not Duttons . A lot of the building are quite different. I think the contractors were different.

Don

[mike morley]

Thought; Are there any in the museum at Oswestry?

[ChrisN]

I have been wanting to post about station plans for over a week now but life has got in the way, and when I had spare time well, I did some modelling.  I found that I had got a second day on my own again this week so I continued making holes in the baseboards.  Not just random holes, but little ones under where the points will go.  Having read that you should use a 1mm drill and successfully made two or three I broke it so continued with a 1.5mm, which to be honest was more the size the holes ended up anyway.  I found that if you have a large torch underneath the holes you can look through and see if the slide bar in the point has a clear run.  I did this as well as using the point 'bar' to check clearance.  Having made the holes for the points on the fiddleyard I decided that I probably ought to start laying track.

 

I had already cut short lengths of wire, so tinned some of them, tinned a piece of track where they would go, plus also the ends where they would be soldered to the screws at the edge of the baseboard.  This is what they look like, for those of a nervous disposition, scroll down quickly.

 

The wires

 

Tinned ends

 

Being fairly quick off the mark I realised that you needed holes to push the wires through, so here is the cork, with holes and screws at the baseboard joint.

 

 

I then put PVA down, laid the rail, and secured it with drawing pins.  I had struggled to keep the track still with the pins until I realised that Peco track has little holes in some sleepers for track pins.    Not that they had been staring me in the face for weeks of course!  A piece of ply on top and then piled with books.  Today it looked like:-

 

 

I had tried to make sure the track spacing on this one was correct.  In case you are wondering, yes, this is a piece of Set-track.  I wanted to ensure that the curve into the fiddleyard was correct, and this way I was absolutely certain.

 

View into the fiddleyard

 

This is the other end,

 

I lined up the first point to be perpendicular to the edge but looking at it today I think it is a little off but it is turned into the curve so should not be a problem.

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

 

[ChrisN]

Having started to lay track, and looked at the actual space I have for a station building I thought I ought to investigate Cambrian Station buildings.  The Coast line buildings seem to be fairly functional and not overly attractive.  This impression is not helped by modern day Tywyn which in one picture sums up why I do not model up to date railways.  If you wish to see it look for it on Google Street View. 

 

I started by trying to find their lengths which was made easier when I realised, or re-realised that Google maps has distance measures.  I found that Barmouth and Tywyn were both about 125ft long and Porthmadog is longer, 130 or 140 ft.  It is noticeable that both Barmouth and Tywyn have or had the entrance porch, the one on the latter now removed.  I Googled 'Cambrian Stations' or similar and came across this.  This is a diagram of Aberdovey Station building, which used to be at Pwllheli, and was drawn by Sierd Jan and is on his thread, Porth Aberdovey.  I asked him if I could reference it and he kindly sent me a copy.  This building is 99ft long, or as Excel would have it having converted it from metres to decimal feet, to feet and inches, 98ft 12".

 

I measured the length that I am fairly sure I will have, (famous last words), and it is 40cm, or 400mm which is of course 100ft.  This pan would therefore appear to fit the bill.  However, its roof is fairly tall and the canopy is a balanced type, as per Ratio station kit the canopy of which is not being used.  However, the long sloping heavy canopy seems to be only found on the Cambrian so I would like to model one of those.  To do this I think the walls will have to be taller, with a shorter roof, like at Barmouth.  There are better pictures that depict the station, but I am not sure they are better pictures.  Also this links to a set of photographs of Barmouth which I think is brilliant.  It does not answer questions about Cambrian ground signals, or buffer stops, more of which another time, neither does it show 1 Cumberland Place where the Station Master lived in four rooms with his wife and 8, eight, children, but it does have a picture of him and nineteen other railway personnel, so it answers the question about how many staff were employed at Barmouth.  (There is at least one Inspector, two guards and the proprietor of W H Smiths as well as the others.)  A site well worth looking at.

 

It appears too that the Station Master's house was not integral with the station building so I can decide what to do about that later.  However, what I would like to know is, does anyone have any plans of the internal layout?  It is fairly obvious from the plan, and other photos where the gentleman's toilet is, but what about the rest.  If no one knows I will make it up.

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.