Traeth Mawr -Building Mr Price's house , (mostly)

[ChrisN]

1 hour ago, Sasquatch said:

Thanks for that information. I'm off to look for where the "WM" is on old maps of Queensbury!

 

Very interesting reading all this Chris. You seem to have stirred up a hornet's nest!

 

Regards Shaun

 

Shaun,

It is surprising what one question throws up!

 

Mr Parry employs one worker, John Davies.  I am assuming that they both do everything, but Davies a bit more than Parry.  Except that is taking bookings.  Would people walk down to his office?  If so they might find him out.  Would he have office open hours.  Would Mrs Griffith call to him as he walked by and ask to be booked in for an extra 5cwt?  Would people write to him?  My mum, I am sure, used to phone her order through, which is not an option.  (Mr. Parry was quite taken with the idea of having one of these new fangled telephone things to help him get orders,and would have had the phone number of Traeth Mawr 1, which would have pleased him immensely.  He did not as it was pointed out that, 1) there was no exchange in Traeth Mawr, 2) he would be the only one with a phone, and 3) that it would put other people off getting a telephone as the only person they could ring was the coal merchant.)

 

I need to go away and look in books for suitable Cambrian buildings, which may in the end be not far removed from those already posted.

[MrWolf]

Some of the weighbridge buildings in mid Wales were very basic, such as llansilin Road on the Tanat Valley.

 

 

Photo: C.C.Green from The Tanat Valley light railway by M. Lloyd.

 

A lot of English ones were no fancier.

 

 

Basically a garden shed covering the weighing machine. There were two flaps that opened up on the side, rather like a burger van...

 

Longdon Road, Shipston on Stour branch. Picture Warwickshire Railways.

Yet the next station at Stretton on Fosse had a typically sturdy GWR brick building.

 

A bit of a minefield, but it does make it easier to build what you fancy.

[Mikkel]

9 hours ago, ChrisN said:

I supose I will need a Dart Castings Trade Horse. 

 

Judging by the other residents at Traeth Mawr, I expect it will be quite a character.

 

 

Caption: 18th October 1937: Mr Jack Fowler, a coal merchant in Bedford regularly brings his horse Sam into the public bar of the Balloon Inn for a beer and a game of dominoes with the lads. Source: Getty Images, embedding permitted.

 

Edited October 19, 2022 by Mikkel

[brumtb]

11 hours ago, ChrisN said:

 

Tony,

Maybe I could use the donkey for the Milk Cart.

Yes, I like that, it has a certain Welsh quaintness about it!

Tony

[brumtb]

11 hours ago, ChrisN said:

 

  I need to work in a Coal Office too, perhaps.

Not necessarily, as we've seen a great many small coal merchants worked out of their homes and Mrs Parry would, presumably, be there to take orders.

Tony

[corneliuslundie]

Mike Lloyd's Tanat Valley book also has a drawing and photo of the weighbridge hut at Llanrhaiadr Mochnant but the photo caption describes it as "replacement" so it may well be GWR. There is also a drawing of the hut at Llansilin Road, the photo of which appears above.

Jonathan

[MikeOxon]

13 hours ago, ChrisN said:

Mr Parry employs one worker, John Davies.  I am assuming that they both do everything, but Davies a bit more than Parry.  Except that is taking bookings.  Would people walk down to his office?  If so they might find him out.  Would he have office open hours.  Would Mrs Griffith call to him as he walked by and ask to be booked in for an extra 5cwt?  Would people write to him?

My recollection from childhood is that the coal man used to call regularly at our house. My parents would pay his bill and discuss their future requirements.  As I recall, he would often stay for quite a while, chatting to my parents. 

 

Later there was a scandal, when several people began to notice that deliveries were sometimes 'short'  My parents were usually out of the house when the coal was delivered but a neighbour used to count the bags as they were tipped into our coal shed.  When the coal man came, his bill was frequently for more bags but, when challenged, he would say that the lad must have made a mistake and he accepted my parent's figure.  Then, one evening, the coal man came round in a bad state.  He had discovered that his son was defrauding the business and, after many years of honest trading, the firm's reputation had been destroyed.  Sadly, the old man died soon afterwards.  Everyone said it was from the shame that his son had brought upon him.

[ChrisN]

5 hours ago, Mikkel said:

 

Judging by the other residents at Traeth Mawr, I expect it will be quite a character.

 

 

Caption: 18th October 1937: Mr Jack Fowler, a coal merchant in Bedford regularly brings his horse Sam into the public bar of the Balloon Inn for a beer and a game of dominoes with the lads. Source: Getty Images, embedding permitted.

 

 

Mikkel,

How do you find pictures like this- brilliant.

 

I have seen dogs in pubs, drinking beer, but I doubt if it would be allowed today.  He is a big lad as well, looks like a Shire.  The floor in the Public Bar would have been quite rough so would not mark with his hoofs. 

[Edwardian]

That's Bedford for you.

[ChrisN]

You may be wondering why I am so keen on how this particular coal merchants is run.  The reason is that apparently. although the jury is still out on this, that Traeth Mawr is fictitious, therefore I need to understand what went on in the yard, so that I have the appropriate buildings.

 

3 hours ago, brumtb said:

Not necessarily, as we've seen a great many small coal merchants worked out of their homes and Mrs Parry would, presumably, be there to take orders.

Tony

 

That would make a lot of sense, so that the buildings at the coal yard would be more basic.  Would they have made a cup of tea?  They would have  been too dirty to go in the Refreshment Room or pop home.

 

1 hour ago, MikeOxon said:

My recollection from childhood is that the coal man used to call regularly at our house. My parents would pay his bill and discuss their future requirements.  As I recall, he would often stay for quite a while, chatting to my parents. 

 

Later there was a scandal, when several people began to notice that deliveries were sometimes 'short'  My parents were usually out of the house when the coal was delivered but a neighbour used to count the bags as they were tipped into our coal shed.  When the coal man came, his bill was frequently for more bags but, when challenged, he would say that the lad must have made a mistake and he accepted my parent's figure.  Then, one evening, the coal man came round in a bad state.  He had discovered that his son was defrauding the business and, after many years of honest trading, the firm's reputation had been destroyed.  Sadly, the old man died soon afterwards.  Everyone said it was from the shame that his son had brought upon him.

 

 

That is a very sad tale.

 

It may be that we were, or where we lived was unusual in that we had two big deliveries a year, but the coal merchants, as they were based in North London were quite large.  It would make more sense if Mr Parry was getting two wagon loads a week that he would be delivering a few hundred weight here, and a few there.  There was gas in Traeth Mawr, but I am not sure how common it was to cook with gas in a rural town in 1895.  (More research!)  Coal would therefore be needed all year round, but I suppose that too prevent stocks pilling up too much in the summer that he might drop the price to get rid of it.

[brumtb]

10 minutes ago, ChrisN said:

 

That would make a lot of sense, so that the buildings at the coal yard would be more basic.  Would they have made a cup of tea?  They would have  been too dirty to go in the Refreshment Room or pop home.

 

 

 

 

Probably pop home or carry a can and boil it up in the yard?

Tony

[ChrisN]

40 minutes ago, brumtb said:

Probably pop home or carry a can and boil it up in the yard?

Tony

 

"Now you stand there and do not bring all that dust into the house, I have just swept up!"

 

"I have told you before you need a platform ticket to go on the platform."

"Yes, but I only need the toilet."

 

I forgot to say that my mum also counted the bags into the coal shed, and the coalmen would put the folded bags on the back of their lorry in a pile, partly to check how many they had delivered and partly to prove they had.

[Dana Ashdown]

7 hours ago, MikeOxon said:

My parents were usually out of the house when the coal was delivered but a neighbour used to count the bags as they were tipped into our coal shed.

That was my mother's job when her parents were out. She would sit at the top of the cellar stairs and count the bags.

[Nick Gough]

12 hours ago, Mikkel said:

 

Judging by the other residents at Traeth Mawr, I expect it will be quite a character.

 

 

Caption: 18th October 1937: Mr Jack Fowler, a coal merchant in Bedford regularly brings his horse Sam into the public bar of the Balloon Inn for a beer and a game of dominoes with the lads. Source: Getty Images, embedding permitted.

 

 

6 hours ago, ChrisN said:

 

Mikkel,

How do you find pictures like this- brilliant.

 

I have seen dogs in pubs, drinking beer, but I doubt if it would be allowed today.  He is a big lad as well, looks like a Shire.  The floor in the Public Bar would have been quite rough so would not mark with his hoofs. 

 

I suppose the barman asked him,

 "Why the long face?"

[MrWolf]

37 minutes ago, Nick Gough said:

 

 

I suppose the barman asked him,

 "Why the long face?"

 

Or the old Viz joke: " Is that Celine Dion?"

[Mikkel]

19 hours ago, ChrisN said:

 

Mikkel,

How do you find pictures like this- brilliant.

 

I have seen dogs in pubs, drinking beer, but I doubt if it would be allowed today.  He is a big lad as well, looks like a Shire.  The floor in the Public Bar would have been quite rough so would not mark with his hoofs. 

 

It's a great photo, although perhaps it wasn't quite as "regular" an occurrence as the caption suggests!

 

It seems the Balloon in Bedford still exists and made it through lockdown. Maybe they have the photo on the wall.

[ChrisN]

On 18/10/2022 at 19:28, MrWolf said:

 

Wizard models do a selection of etched brass weighbridge plates and the guardrail on their website.

 

The back of beyond station that came to mind first was Nateby (Originally Winmarleigh) Lancashire, closed to passengers as long ago as 1930.

 

 

 

Photos, Disused Railways website.

 

On 19/10/2022 at 09:36, corneliuslundie said:

Mike Lloyd's Tanat Valley book also has a drawing and photo of the weighbridge hut at Llanrhaiadr Mochnant but the photo caption describes it as "replacement" so it may well be GWR. There is also a drawing of the hut at Llansilin Road, the photo of which appears above.

Jonathan

 

 

Thank you both. 

 

I have been looking through the Middleton Pressbooks, Machynlleth to Barmouth, and Barmouth to Pwllheli, mainly because they have maps with the annotation WM and photos that you can, hopefully, match up with the map and so see the building that goes with the weighbridge.  The notion that when a train is photographed that only the engine is commented on is not only painfully true, but it extends to goods yards where the engines are noted, and the goods shed is mentioned, but little else.  (I am being overly harsh.)  However, there are no photos of weighbridges, as such.  Looking at the maps and photos together you can just see squeezing in at the side or the far distance a building that is probably the weighbridge building, and they are all the size of the one shown above.

 

Now the Cambrian Coast Line and the Main Line would I have thought, made its buildings of stone, so I would assume that the buildings I (half) see are original.  I shall now look through C.C. Green's books now I know where the buildings are, and he, of all people, is actually likely to have photographed one, although a quick scan through did not reveal one.

 

My final thought is, would the Cambrian have been responsible for its use.  The general goods handling is at the other end of the station.  The slate exchange sidings are off scene.  The coal yard is a stand alone space that they rent out.  I assume they would have built the weighbridge, and maybe the coal office as well, but would they check if Mr Parry was using it properly?  As the landlord would they be responsible for maintaining it?  (Probably.)  Would the records be checked by Sergeant Roberts the local policeman, especially if he thought Mr Parry was overloading his wagon?  As there were Weights and Measures Acts in the 19th Century, then there must have been inspectors to come and inspect.

 

 

[MrWolf]

https://www.llanbadoc.org/2018/05/03/a-future-for-the-gwr-weighbridge-building/

 

http://haylesabbeyhalt.blogspot.com/2018/07/a-new-heritage-project.html?m=1

 

This is an unusual stone one at Usk, there were a lot of remains at the site when I last visited some 15 years ago.

 

 

Edited October 20, 2022 by MrWolf
Better pictures

[corneliuslundie]

Not about weighbridges, but an interesting snippet I read this morning in the Graffeg volume on the Vale of Clwyd line, about St Asaph: "Coal trains supplied four separate coal merchants in the 1940s who took nearly 40 wagons a week." In 1911 St Asaph's population was 3355, (In 1831 it was 3344). So about a quarter as big again as Barmouth (2522 recently).

So would there actually have been two or three coal merchants? I assume that coal consumption per household would probably have been higher in 1895 than in 1940 as there was no electricity to compete.

Just a thought.

And I have spotted a weighbridge hut: page 63 of "The Mid Wales line" by Derek Lowe, nestling to the right of the station building

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, corneliuslundie said:

Not about weighbridges, but an interesting snippet I read this morning in the Graffeg volume on the Vale of Clwyd line, about St Asaph: "Coal trains supplied four separate coal merchants in the 1940s who took nearly 40 wagons a week." In 1911 St Asaph's population was 3355, (In 1831 it was 3344). So about a quarter as big again as Barmouth (2522 recently).

So would there actually have been two or three coal merchants? I assume that coal consumption per household would probably have been higher in 1895 than in 1940 as there was no electricity to compete.

 

That would correspond to around half a ton of coal (10 cwt) per household per week, whereas as I recall the best estimate for domestic consumption c. 1900 is around one ton per year - around two hundredweight per week, a couple of sacks. So I wonder if the author made a mistake in writing up from their notes, and the statistic should have been 40 wagons a month? As far as I can make out, the only significant local industry was religion - not a major coal consumer. 

 

But I think as many as four coal merchants is perfectly possible.

[ChrisN]

1 hour ago, corneliuslundie said:

Not about weighbridges, but an interesting snippet I read this morning in the Graffeg volume on the Vale of Clwyd line, about St Asaph: "Coal trains supplied four separate coal merchants in the 1940s who took nearly 40 wagons a week." In 1911 St Asaph's population was 3355, (In 1831 it was 3344). So about a quarter as big again as Barmouth (2522 recently).

So would there actually have been two or three coal merchants? I assume that coal consumption per household would probably have been higher in 1895 than in 1940 as there was no electricity to compete.

Just a thought.

And I have spotted a weighbridge hut: page 63 of "The Mid Wales line" by Derek Lowe, nestling to the right of the station building

Jonathan

 

Jonathan,

In the 1901 Barmouth census there is only one coal merchant listed.  I assume a lot of coal would have gone to the gas works which for me is off scene.  As @Compound2632 has said about a ton a year for domestic seems reasonable as that is roughly what we used.

 

However, there is no milkman listed on the Census but there is a photo of John Williams and youthful colleague, (I will find it later), in 1910 but they are shown at LLanaber so it is possible that he supplied Barmouth their milk and that other coal merchants lived outside the Barmouth census area.  I suppose a local history society of Barmouth would be able to tell what number of coal merchants there were.

 

Mr Parry is quite shocked that he has not got a monopoly and is guarding the coal yard fiercely.  

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, ChrisN said:

In the 1901 Barmouth census there is only one coal merchant listed. 

 

Have you tried tracking down a Kelly's Directory? That might give a different picture, especially if there are shopkeepers or tradesmen selling coal on the side from their main business.

[corneliuslundie]

The attached was information I gleaned from local directories about Bishops Castle in connection with our club layout. Currently the population is only 1630 (2001) but it was rather larger earlier, possibly as large as Traeth Mawr. What is noticeable is how many of those who supplied coal also had other irons in the fire. BTW none of them had their own wagons.

 

Jonathan

Bishops Castle PO wagon owners.doc

[ChrisN]

6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Have you tried tracking down a Kelly's Directory? That might give a different picture, especially if there are shopkeepers or tradesmen selling coal on the side from their main business.

 

3 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

The attached was information I gleaned from local directories about Bishops Castle in connection with our club layout. Currently the population is only 1630 (2001) but it was rather larger earlier, possibly as large as Traeth Mawr. What is noticeable is how many of those who supplied coal also had other irons in the fire. BTW none of them had their own wagons.

 

Jonathan

Bishops Castle PO wagon owners.doc 23.5 kB · 2 downloads

 

Thank you both.  In the census there are a number of shop keepers who seemed to sell more than one thing in their shops, e.g., 'Baker and Grocer'.  THat was the first I came across but not the oddest.  There were none though down as selling coal.

 

I have searched for Kelly's Directory and would you believe, there is a Mid and North Wales for 1895.  I have found and downloaded the Barmouth entry and am now going to look for the list from Traeth Mawr.  Before I do that though I shal interrogate the pages from Barmouth.

[ChrisN]

I have had a quick interrogation of Kelly's Directory.  Not all entries are the same as the 1901 Census which makes things interesting.  However, in both, there is only one Coal Merchant.  In the Directory there is a Morris Ellis. coach proprietor, corn and coal merchant.  In the Census there a John Jones, Coal Merchant and a Catherine Williams a Corn and Flour Merchant.  Checking the Census Morris Ellis is there in roughly the right house and is listed as 76 and with no occupation.  Catherine Williams is in the Directory as a Grocer and Baker.  Mr Ellis has obviously sold his business in two parts and is living on the proceeds.  

 

I am satisfied that Traeth Mawr only needs one Coal Merchant.

 

To put a fly in the ointment, Llwyngwril, a small village the other side of the Estuary has two Coal Merchants, but it appears that they probably cover as far north as Arthog, and may be as far south as LLangelynn.

 

Just to prove that I do not make things up, Robert Parry, Coal Merchant from Traeth Mawr has a relation in the Bangor/LLandegai listings, a Robert Parry who is, yes a Coal Merchant.