Wartime Railways

[Guest nzflyer]

Seeing as its the 100th anniversary of the start of the First World War, it seems only fitting that somewhere on here should be a thread dedicated to wartime railways in and around Britain, and worked by British forces on foreign soil. I was thinking quite recently what it would take to create a wartime layout. There are some very good reasons to do so. 

 

A. There was a variation in traffic. Extra traffic on the railways included evacuation specials, troop trains, vehicle and armament freight and finally lengthy trains of fuel tanks. 

 

B. You can run what you like where you like. LMS '3F' and LNER 'J21' 0-6-0s and SR 'N15X' 4-6-0s were loaned in place of GWR 'Dean Goods' that had been sent off to France during the Second World War. Unfortunately, there are no ready-to-run models of American-built locomotives that later arrived, bolstering Britain's locomotive roster. 

 

C. Coaching stock was no longer limited to parent company metals. Some 400 coaches were commandeered for use in 'Operation Dynamo' in 1940. This means that you can run LMS coaches in Hampshire and get away with it 

 

Also the standard of military models is increasing. Bachmann is soon to release a 'warflat' wagon with tank load. I never thought I'd live to see the day! Also Oxford Diecast is releasing some very nice ready-to-plant vehicles. Plonk a few Sherman tanks in a corner with some Oxford Matadors and you have yourself a small military scene!   Keep in mind too that Oxford is soon releasing a steam traction engine decorated in War Department colours for First World War modellers.

 

Scenic detailing is essential as well. These would include maybe a few Hornby pill boxes at canals, railways and other strategic points of interest. A airfield scene would be quite neat, or a Spitfire that has attempted a 'belly landing' in a field. Marching soldiers from either world war would be a useful addition. At stations, platform edges were painted white and lamps were blacked out. Station nameboards were also removed. Air raid shelters were provided at yards, depots and stations. Armed sentries were posted at most strategic locations. 

 

Of course, locomotives and coaches would need to be detailed. Locomotives sported blackout sheets to prevent the glow of their fireboxes being seen at night. The GWR went further and plated over cabside windows on tender locomotives. Coaches were fitted with blue lightbulbs. Research into wartime liveries carried by locomotives and stock should be added.

 

Of course, I'm not telling you what to do with your layout, but these are all simple extras that will help you create such a layout. Comments and suggestions and (especially) photographs would be much appreciated. Lets put some thought into the words 'Lest we Forget' 

 

Oh, may I just quickly add that most of this was sourced from Model Rail's excellent article on military railways (Summer Issue 2009)!

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

Mornin' NZ,

 

There is a great 1941 picture of a WW2 armoured train in 'Images of Cornish Railways' by Maurice Dart. This patrolled the banks of the River Camel between Wadebridge and Padstow.

 

Something similar could easily be a centrepiece of your proposed model.

 

Dave

[TheQ]

I've been planning and working on a Railway based on 29th May 1940 for over 5years. It helpsmy chosen station was /is connected to the military.

If interested in the Dunkirk period of the railways I would suggest getting a copy of "Return from Dunkirk, Railways to the rescue, Operation Dynamo," by Peter Tatlow

The Q

[Jules]

There is a rather nice WW2 layout on the circuit (can't remember the name ) that shows many of the features you suggest.

The first time I saw it, the sound of the Spitfire/Hurricane (Merlin powered anyway!) that is occasionally played had me looking up - a bit daft in an exhibition hall!!

[Guest nzflyer]

There is a rather nice WW2 layout on the circuit (can't remember the name ) that shows many of the features you suggest.

The first time I saw it, the sound of the Spitfire/Hurricane (Merlin powered anyway!) that is occasionally played had me looking up - a bit daft in an exhibition hall!!

are you thinking of rowland s castle?

[Sasquatch]

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/1023-warley-nec-all-over-for-another-year-feedback-so-far/?p=29211

One of the best layouts I think I've seen. Certainly sticks in my head more than any other but I did live in Belgium for several years.  

[The Stationmaster]

Dave,

 

In 'The Bodmin and Wadebirdge Railway' - C.F.D.Whetmwath - Forge Books, that train is shown at Wadbridge with a LNER (ex GER) 2-4-2T, possibly No. 7178, as the motive power. The whole train is in military camoflage livery.

 

During WW2, the Southern lent ex LSWR 4-4-0 K10s to the LMS and Urie N15 to the LNER I believe.   Also, in WW1, the LSWR lent Adams Radials to the Highland Railway. My books are in storage at the moment, so cannot confirm for a few days.

And a GWR diesel railcar appeared on Tyneside I do believe.

 

BTW according to those there at the time the SR N15X (I think that was the class?) which were loaned at Old Oak Common were quickly relegated to a siding round the back on a semi-permanent basis.

 

WWI is also quite good with GWR 28XX working as far north as Warrington on a regular basis on the 'Jellicoe Special' coal trains.

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

Hi Paul, Mike,

 

Maurice speculates (he adds "with reasonable accuracy") that 7177 is the loco in the picture...a spare, indicated by the absence of the large letter on the bunker of the loco which would have identified the train.

 

As you say...in full camouflage livery and just begging to be modelled.

 

Some great pictures here (including the Wadebridge pic)

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=armoured+train+picture+wadebridge&tbm=isch&imgil=AwKBD6mLaGJC5M%253A%253Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fencrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com%252Fimages%253Fq%253Dtbn%253AANd9GcQg0LLAxaNi8gMApTiWANbijSc1TzECKalxVI3K0v7UWV44d2bp%253B789%253B600%253BKMceWpgQFo25AM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.rmweb.co.uk%25252Fcommunity%25252Findex.php%25253F%25252Ftopic%25252F51763-ww2-home-defence-trains%25252F&source=iu&usg=__L9zmYQl1j62MXkEmOsagOEybFic%3D&sa=X&ei=P032UpDJE8WthQeW7IDgBQ&ved=0CDMQ9QEwAw&biw=1366&bih=643#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=AwKBD6mLaGJC5M%253A%3BKMceWpgQFo25AM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fupload.wikimedia.org%252Fwikipedia%252Fcommons%252Fthumb%252F1%252F17%252FSaxmundham_armoured_train_1940.jpg%252F789px-Saxmundham_armoured_train_1940.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.rmweb.co.uk%252Fcommunity%252Findex.php%253F%252Ftopic%252F51763-ww2-home-defence-trains%252F%3B789%3B600

 

 

 

Dave

[Guest nzflyer]

The armoured trains you are talking about is really quite easy to model. They are really just old tenders with Vickers or Bren machine guns sticking out the side. The 'big gun' I think is a QF 2 Pounder.

[Colombo]

The theme of Midland Railex on 16th and 17th August this year at the Midland Railway centre in Derbyshire will be to commemorate the outbreak of WW1 in August 1914 when the railways laid on 670 trains to transport the BEF to Southampton and onward to France. A total of about 80,000 men and 20,000 horses with their artillery and transport were delivered and every train was on time. All this had been planned well in advance of course as the railway system was regarded as a strategic weapon of war essential for the rapid movement and resupply of troops. The Germans mobilised 2 Million men who were transported to their borders in a matter of days along 13 railway lines that ended near their borders, all planned well in advance.

The British plan for the mobilisation of the railways was laid out in the Railway Manual (War) 1911 as amended 1914, copies of which are available from the Imperial War Museum. Each unit in the Army was provided with a train(s) to suit its requirements. There is a list of standard formations lettered from A to V. For example, a half battery of artillery required a train of Formation A, which had carriages with 17 compartments in total, 12 cattle trucks for the horses, and 9 vehicle (carriage) trucks plus  two brake vans. Men travelled 8 to a compartment. A cattle truck could take 8 light horses, 7 medium or six heavy. The half artillery battery had 3 guns, limbers, ammunition caissons and theuir limbers, general service wagons and so on.

At the Historical Model Railway Society's Museum and Study Centre at the Midland Railway Centre we have several model railways including Plemsworth, a P4 layout set on the Cheshire Lines Committee in 1928. For the purposes of the commemoration we are setting the date of the layout back to 1914 and borrowing or converting suitable locos and rolling stock. This is made easier because the CLC did not change its identity at the Grouping in 1923. The locos were supplied by the GCR.

We are presently building a military train of formation A carrying a Territorial half battery somewhere for training. This is all top secret of course under the Defence of the Realm Act 1914, (DORA) the penalty for infringement being very severe up to the death sentence, so we cannot reveal where this train is supposed to be going via the CLC. DORA prevented the public from taking photographs, and recording train movements so the absence of records of these train movements is not surprising. However Ken Nunn took several photographs of such trains  prior to the outbreak of war and during the war and these are in his collection at the NRM.

I shall post photographs of the train as construction progresses. It is about half completed at present.

 

Colombo

[buffalo]

..They are really just old tenders...

 

Yes, as you can see from the photos it Dave's post and link, they just threw away the tank and replaced it with armour plating, then threw away everything beneath and replaced it with a 4-wheel wagon underframe

 

Nick

[westcountryman]

Hi guys,

I am actually in the process of constructing a simple tribute to my grandfather & his fellow gunners in the Royal Garrison Artillery during the first world war situated in the Ypres salient.

Entitled 'In Flanders Fields' it will represent a section of the allied front line during the battle of Passchendaele, third Ypres.

My intention is to give a working diorama view of a section of line, including trenchwork, artillery positions, & the awful conditions faced by all involved.

It is not intended to glorify war, but to give a simple tribute to those who served so diligently, so long ago.

I intend to have a Royal British Legion collection tin, so potential viewers can contribute to the care of those affected by conflict.

It is planned to exhibit at the annual Barnstaple model railway club show, more details to follow.

I have also been contacted by the Ilfracombe museum, to exhibit at the town's commemoration ceremony in August, as my grandfather was an Ilfracombe man

I will post details of the layout in due course as it is now nearing completion.

Cheers

Rob

[AMJ]

This reminds me this I have promised To do an article about the locomotives rolling stock and track components that were supplied from Leeds for use during the great war.

 

Please don't forget the railways in France and Belgium they were in some respects more important than the UK.

[Colombo]

With regard to the construction of a military train for Plemsworth in P4 (see above), there are so many vehicles required in a short time that we have taken to kit-bashing in the hope of making a reasonable representation of a GNR rake.

 

 

I have attached a photograph of a General Service Wagon  which is mostly scratch built except for the wheels and the load, which are from the Imex American History Series Confederate wagon kit, sitting on a model of a GNR carriage truck. The latter is also mostly from scratch, except for the under frame which is a Coopercraft (ex-Slaters) a kit derived from the NER Birdcage brake (S4056).

 

We are building ten of these carriage trucks to carry the artillery and transport. 

 

 

The horses will travel in cattle trucks and it is a tight squeeze for them at seven in each. They are built using the Parkside LNER cattle wagon kit modified to represent the GNR 18'2" type. We have to extend the wheelbase to 10 feet, reduce the door openings and fit new doors, and on some, fit 4 end stanchions rather than the two that the LNER provided.  We are building 12 of these. The 84 horses are  from  various 1/72 scale plastic kits and job lots of plastic soldiers, modified to suit. Fortunately not much modification is required as you can only see the heads on one side and the rumps on the other, so it is mostly a matter of bending or chopping off errant legs and tails.

 

 

The carriages are  already built: we have a number of excellent GNR six wheelers built from D&S kits, which is why we are choosing to build a GNR train.

 

Colombo

 

 

 

 

[Guest nzflyer]

This reminds me this I have promised To do an article about the locomotives rolling stock and track components that were supplied from Leeds for use during the great war.

 

Please don't forget the railways in France and Belgium they were in some respects more important than the UK.

Yes absoutely. They were, after all, on 'the front' 

[Guest nzflyer]

What about a model of this one then.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=mt9tF_CBrO-qpM&tbnid=K6Px3v0Q-GDeDM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cgtantra.com%2Fforums%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D21580&ei=5473UqSrG7CQ0QW4soCQCQ&bvm=bv.60983673,d.ZGU&psig=AFQjCNF9q3vq9c1CUBw8QCfEmcMoQMpdCg&ust=1392041957168673

That's most interesting. If you take a look at some of Nazi Germany's armoured trains, some of them really were land ships! I suppose it was with that tyrant's policy of 'bigger is better'.

[Guest nzflyer]

Hi guys,

I am actually in the process of constructing a simple tribute to my grandfather & his fellow gunners in the Royal Garrison Artillery during the first world war situated in the Ypres salient.

Entitled 'In Flanders Fields' it will represent a section of the allied front line during the battle of Passchendaele, third Ypres.

My intention is to give a working diorama view of a section of line, including trenchwork, artillery positions, & the awful conditions faced by all involved.

It is not intended to glorify war, but to give a simple tribute to those who served so diligently, so long ago.

I intend to have a Royal British Legion collection tin, so potential viewers can contribute to the care of those affected by conflict.

It is planned to exhibit at the annual Barnstaple model railway club show, more details to follow.

I have also been contacted by the Ilfracombe museum, to exhibit at the town's commemoration ceremony in August, as my grandfather was an Ilfracombe man

I will post details of the layout in due course as it is now nearing completion.

Cheers

Rob

I would very much like to see some pictures of this. What sort of locomotives are you using?

[PhilJ W]

What about a model of this one then.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=mt9tF_CBrO-qpM&tbnid=K6Px3v0Q-GDeDM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cgtantra.com%2Fforums%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D21580&ei=5473UqSrG7CQ0QW4soCQCQ&bvm=bv.60983673,d.ZGU&psig=AFQjCNF9q3vq9c1CUBw8QCfEmcMoQMpdCg&ust=1392041957168673

This just offers me a redirection to another site, my policy in such an event is no way Jose'.

[Guest nzflyer]

Hello all!

 

Just in the planning stages (most of my ideas never actually form into reality  ) but I've decided to plan a layout set in the Western Desert during the Second World War. The New Zealand Railway Operating Unit ran railways for the Allies during the war whilst the New Zealand Railway Construction Company built them across the desert from El Alamein to Mersa Matruh and everywhere inbetween. Seeing as my great-grandfather spent some years in the war training in Egypt (he was later transferred after the devastation at Monte Cassino and ended the war in Italy) and I am a true blue New Zealander, I thought I would be a real Kiwi and build a layout reflecting New Zealand's contribution to the railways of Britain during the Second World War. 

 

My layout will be based around a spur running from the Western Desert Railway to a small town (I guess you could call it a hamlet) in the desert. There will be a headquarters here in a two-storey house and a couple of jeeps/staff cars waiting around. Camels will be stabled beneath two or three palm trees. I'm finding whatever British/American 1930/1940s trucks I can in 1:76/1:72 and painting them in desert camouflage because in the 1940-1943 period I can see from pictures that there is a lot of Chevrolet/Ford/Bedford/Morris/AEC/Austin trucks being used in the desert. There are going to be a small convoy of them exiting the down by the railway yards, which will be a couple of sidings and a goods shed, but most of the trucks will park by the railway line in the open to be loaded by a stopped train. The entrance to the station yard will be masked by some ruins, scrub, barbed etc. and a sentry post. This will be one half of the layout.

 

On the other half, the road leading out of the village passes an airfield which  has two hangars and a crumbling control tower with a few outer buildings. There will be something like two Spitfires and a larger aircraft (was thinking of a American B-17, but might go for a medium-sized bomber or transport) parked around the site on the apron and the revetment bays. There are disabled German weaponry here such as a 88mm gun, half-tracked artillery tractor and a Kubelwagen (army car). I am also thinking of some Italian or German aircraft wreckage here as well. Continuing pass the airfield is a winding road following the railway, with numerous dugouts and evidence of a battle (more wreckage, a destroyed tank and a crashed two-engine German Messerschmitt fighter-bomber, which British soldiers are inspecting). The road dips away behind some rocks as does the railway line (and then onto backscene).

 

I would really love a small battle scene included in here. Nothing major, but a small skirmish. Ten or so German Africa Korps survivors attempting to fight their way past a Allied patrol. There should be ten or so German soldiers and a lightly armoured vehicle putting up a decent fight with grenades, rifles and machine-guns and another British patrol storming forward with the support of a Matilda tank. This isn't necessary but I may as well have some fun!

 

Judging from historical photographs the locomotives appear to be of Stanier origin but I'm not quite sure. Could someone please help me on that one? The other question is what kind of wagons/coaches/brake vans were used. I glimpsed the rear of a brake van in the desert and it looked like the rear end of a GWR 'Toad'. I had a feeling that some of these wagons and coaches may have been requisitioned. Am I right or am I wrong? 

 

I think this layout would both be challenging (most of the rolling stock would be modified or scratchbuilt) but I think my other love of building model armies would come into play here too! 

 

Any suggestions or comments welcome.

 

Thanks   

[PhilJ W]

Hello all!

 

Just in the planning stages (most of my ideas never actually form into reality  ) but I've decided to plan a layout set in the Western Desert during the Second World War. The New Zealand Railway Operating Unit ran railways for the Allies during the war whilst the New Zealand Railway Construction Company built them across the desert from El Alamein to Mersa Matruh and everywhere inbetween. Seeing as my great-grandfather spent some years in the war training in Egypt (he was later transferred after the devastation at Monte Cassino and ended the war in Italy) and I am a true blue New Zealander, I thought I would be a real Kiwi and build a layout reflecting New Zealand's contribution to the railways of Britain during the Second World War. 

 

My layout will be based around a spur running from the Western Desert Railway to a small town (I guess you could call it a hamlet) in the desert. There will be a headquarters here in a two-storey house and a couple of jeeps/staff cars waiting around. Camels will be stabled beneath two or three palm trees. I'm finding whatever British/American 1930/1940s trucks I can in 1:76/1:72 and painting them in desert camouflage because in the 1940-1943 period I can see from pictures that there is a lot of Chevrolet/Ford/Bedford/Morris/AEC/Austin trucks being used in the desert. There are going to be a small convoy of them exiting the down by the railway yards, which will be a couple of sidings and a goods shed, but most of the trucks will park by the railway line in the open to be loaded by a stopped train. The entrance to the station yard will be masked by some ruins, scrub, barbed etc. and a sentry post. This will be one half of the layout.

 

On the other half, the road leading out of the village passes an airfield which  has two hangars and a crumbling control tower with a few outer buildings. There will be something like two Spitfires and a larger aircraft (was thinking of a American B-17, but might go for a medium-sized bomber or transport) parked around the site on the apron and the revetment bays. There are disabled German weaponry here such as a 88mm gun, half-tracked artillery tractor and a Kubelwagen (army car). I am also thinking of some Italian or German aircraft wreckage here as well. Continuing pass the airfield is a winding road following the railway, with numerous dugouts and evidence of a battle (more wreckage, a destroyed tank and a crashed two-engine German Messerschmitt fighter-bomber, which British soldiers are inspecting). The road dips away behind some rocks as does the railway line (and then onto backscene).

 

I would really love a small battle scene included in here. Nothing major, but a small skirmish. Ten or so German Africa Korps survivors attempting to fight their way past a Allied patrol. There should be ten or so German soldiers and a lightly armoured vehicle putting up a decent fight with grenades, rifles and machine-guns and another British patrol storming forward with the support of a Matilda tank. This isn't necessary but I may as well have some fun!

 

Judging from historical photographs the locomotives appear to be of Stanier origin but I'm not quite sure. Could someone please help me on that one? The other question is what kind of wagons/coaches/brake vans were used. I glimpsed the rear of a brake van in the desert and it looked like the rear end of a GWR 'Toad'. I had a feeling that some of these wagons and coaches may have been requisitioned. Am I right or am I wrong? 

 

I think this layout would both be challenging (most of the rolling stock would be modified or scratchbuilt) but I think my other love of building model armies would come into play here too! 

 

Any suggestions or comments welcome.

 

Thanks   

No B17's operated in North Africa AFAIK, Blenheim's, Hurricane's and P-40's would be the order of the day. The locomotives used would have been 8F's fitted with Westinghouse brakes amongst many others. Other rolling stock would be of the 'Colonial' variety, usually LWB or bogie stock, British type brake vans would not have been used.

[Guest nzflyer]

No B17's operated in North Africa AFAIK, Blenheim's, Hurricane's and P-40's would be the order of the day. The locomotives used would have been 8F's fitted with Westinghouse brakes amongst many others. Other rolling stock would be of the 'Colonial' variety, usually LWB or bogie stock, British type brake vans would not have been used.

What do you mean by 'colonial'? Is this Egyptian or Libyan railway wagons?

[jon_1066]

Could I recommend a B25 or B26 rather than a B17?  Both were found in North Africa during the time period you are looking at.

[PhilJ W]

What do you mean by 'colonial'? Is this Egyptian or Libyan railway wagons?

Yes, much of the Egyptian stock was British made to similar designs to that used in India and other parts of Africa. A lot of the stock of the Algerian and Libyan railways was of French and Italian origin respectively.

Try this blog for advice >>

http://www.georgedentmodelmaker.blogspot.co.uk/2010/11/desert-storm.html

[Fat Controller]

Could I recommend a B25 or B26 rather than a B17?  Both were found in North Africa during the time period you are looking at.

Looking at the composition of the various Desert Air Force squadrons, B26s didn't seem to feature until late 1942, though two earlier Martin products did, the Baltimore and Maryland. There were also Beaufighters and Douglas Bostons in the role of light bombers. Amongst the smaller types, Kittyhawks and Hurricanes predominated, along with Spitfire Mk Vs- the Spits often had a big air intake below the nose, which spoilt their lines, at least to my eyes.

[jon_1066]

I thought late 1942 was the time period he was looking at (post El Alamein?)