Gloucester Wagon Co. Livery color listing

[Spitfire2865]

Hello everyone. Im wondering about the livery colors for gloucester built PO wagons.

In the photos of new wagons, the small sign states the color of livery, but a simple word can be a range of shades. The wagon Im interested in is...

The board says red, but I realize there is a wide range of possible reds. Did the Gloucester Wagon Co. have a certain color per name? Or would red mean any shade that represented red? Ive been looking for better pictures but thats all I can find. Thank you for any help you can give.

[bbishop]

Gloucester could further define the colour - say "Plum Red" or "Purple Red".  The very fact there is no further definition implies something around pillar box or signal red.

 

And the lettering looks to be white shaded black.

 

Bill

[Spitfire2865]

Gloucester could further define the colour - say "Plum Red" or "Purple Red".  The very fact there is no further definition implies something around pillar box or signal red.

 

And the lettering looks to be white shaded black.

 

Bill

Another wagon which was labeled red was a more rust color according to the RTR version, which is the only color version I could find.

[bbishop]

Just had a skim through a book on Gloucester POW.  Most wagons were quoted as "Red", but there were also "Bright Red" and "Dark Red". 

 

You mentioned a rust colour, do you mean Red Oxide?  What I've done is compare the body colour with the black shading, and also with wagons painted in the lead range.  From about 1930 onwards, the camera film achieved the same response from wagons quoted as red and lead, so I think that red oxide was used.  The Dursley wagon has less differential between the body colour and the black shading so I would rule out red oxide.  The light is also reflecting on the wagon which makes me think it is a deeper colour.  However, it isn't quoted as "Bright Red" so maybe not signal red.

 

You can sense I'm unsure, and of course I am unsure.  There are all sorts of factors, film emulsion, weather, time of day, which we are not party to.  It's between signal red and red oxide and if I have to pin my colours to the mast I would moot nearer signal red.  And now my colours will be comprehensively shot down.

 

Bill

[Spitfire2865]

Just had a skim through a book on Gloucester POW.  Most wagons were quoted as "Red", but there were also "Bright Red" and "Dark Red". 

 

You mentioned a rust colour, do you mean Red Oxide?  What I've done is compare the body colour with the black shading, and also with wagons painted in the lead range.  From about 1930 onwards, the camera film achieved the same response from wagons quoted as red and lead, so I think that red oxide was used.  The Dursley wagon has less differential between the body colour and the black shading so I would rule out red oxide.  The light is also reflecting on the wagon which makes me think it is a deeper colour.  However, it isn't quoted as "Bright Red" so maybe not signal red.

 

You can sense I'm unsure, and of course I am unsure.  There are all sorts of factors, film emulsion, weather, time of day, which we are not party to.  It's between signal red and red oxide and if I have to pin my colours to the mast I would moot nearer signal red.  And now my colours will be comprehensively shot down.

 

Bill

So this particular wagon could be anywhere from bright red to red oxide?

[bbishop]

Yes, although I think I prefer "between".

 

Bill

[asmay2002]

My understanding is that "Red" means Red oxide.  Anything else has some additional qualification.

[bbishop]

My understanding is that "Red" means Red oxide.  Anything else has some additional qualification.

Andy,

 

I think that colours and usage changed over time.  Gloucester wagons boarded as "Red" in the 1930s were definitely red oxide and the reaction to the camera is similar to wagons painted lead.  The Dursley wagon appears richer and darker.  But none of us actually know.

 

Bill   

[Spitfire2865]

So I guess Ill use red oxide for this. Thats great, I was hoping for that because I already have the chassis painted nicely. Haha

[buffalo]

...From about 1930 onwards, the camera film achieved the same response from wagons quoted as red and lead, so I think that red oxide was used.  The Dursley wagon has less differential between the body colour and the black shading so I would rule out red oxide...

What date is the Dursley wagon photo? The differences you mention might simply be those between orthochromatic and panchromatic film. If so, red oxide is quite probable.

 

Nick

[bbishop]

It's an RCH 1923 wagon.

 

Bill

[buffalo]

It's an RCH 1923 wagon.

 

Bill

Yes, Bill, but as a design date that just gives us a terminus post quem. The 1923 design was built for many years thereafter. The photo in the OP is a rather poor reproduction and Gloucester photos were usually much better than that. I asked about the date because I couldn't read it on the right hand board, though there is what looks like a photo number or order number, perhaps 4514. If that is a photo number, I think that would imply late-1924 or early 1925. The earliest order numbers that I've seen on the boards is a year or so later.

 

My question about the date was really intended to see if anyone knew anything about the film types used by the company as this would have a bearing on how reds were rendered. Panchromatic film had become available in the early 1900s but does not seem to have been widely used until the late 1920s or later.

 

Nick

[Spitfire2865]

Yes, Bill, but as a design date that just gives us a terminus post quem. The 1923 design was built for many years thereafter. The photo in the OP is a rather poor reproduction and Gloucester photos were usually much better than that. I asked about the date because I couldn't read it on the right hand board, though there is what looks like a photo number or order number, perhaps 4514. If that is a photo number, I think that would imply late-1924 or early 1925. The earliest order numbers that I've seen on the boards is a year or so later.

 

My question about the date was really intended to see if anyone knew anything about the film types used by the company as this would have a bearing on how reds were rendered. Panchromatic film had become available in the early 1900s but does not seem to have been widely used until the late 1920s or later.

 

Nick

I realize this photo is a very poor reproduction, but sadly this is the ONLY photo, or even information about the wagon I could find through Google. And all other Gloucester photos are very nice and clear. 

And by using common sense and a few other Gloucester photos, I can tell you 4514 IS the photo number. 

 

Could you explain what the photo or order number is and how it tells the year? If this wagon was built as you said in the mid 20s, this will fit my intended period very nicely. 

[buffalo]

It looks like there may be a photo and other details in Ian Pope's Private Owner Wagons of Gloucestershire (unfortunately I don't have a copy). Can someone confirm?

 

Yes, it is more likely to be a photo number. Order numbers, I think, only appear later and are usually the last item on the board. The photo number is simply a sequential number identifying a photo or group of photos. It does not necessarily relate to a single photo. In some cases, there are multiple photos with the same number but they all refer to the same job. For example, a rebuilding job may have before and after photos and these may be given the same number. As to the date, you just need to look at a reasonably large collection of Gloucester photos in, for example, one or more of the Turton books to narrow down a particular range of photo numbers to a date range. In this case my comparison was with July 1924 and March 1925 builds.

 

Nick

[petethemole]

The change in photo No's from 43xx to 44xx was in early 1923 if that helps. No 4437 was dated August. The date is next to the photo number but the Dursley one is illegible. By the 1920s the order No is on the same board; early photos didn't nclude it.

 

Pete

[buffalo]

The change in photo No's from 43xx to 44xx was in early 1923 if that helps. No 4437 was dated August. The date is next to the photo number but the Dursley one is illegible. By the 1920s the order No is on the same board; early photos didn't nclude it.

 

Pete

Yes, Pete, that fits. The examples I used were 4502, Holly Bank Coal Co, July 1924 and 4548, South Wales & Cannock Chase Coal & Coke Co, March 1925. The latter, incidentally, is one example of multiple photos with the same number. It was a rebuild and there is a 'before' shot dated Feb 1925 with the same number. Both examples from Turton's third volume.

 

Nick

[Spitfire2865]

So a good estimate is anywhere from mid 24 to early 25. Thats great. Thank you. If I may ask, how do you find this info? Just by pictures?

Exactly how common was the 1923 underframe? So many pictures I see have the older underframe.

[buffalo]

..how do you find this info? Just by pictures?

We are fortunate that the various volumes by Keith Turton, Ian Pope and others (for example, see here) contain a vast amount of information including photos and brief histories of the owning companies. Much of this has been possible because of the surviving records of some of the major wagon builders. For example, the Gloucester RC&W Co records are in The Gloucestershire County Archives (IIRC).

 

Exactly how common was the 1923 underframe? So many pictures I see have the older underframe.

No idea of numbers but I believe they were still being produced well into the thirties.

 

Nick

[bbishop]

The idea was that wagons could be repaired on the hoof so the Railway Clearing House promulgated some standards periodically.  The first were in 1887, which were fairly broad; then 1907, which were much tighter and were basically what Charles Roberts' were building but with sufficient flexibility to allow Gloucester to continue their designs.  The 1923 standards were even tighter and Gloucester had to fall into line. 

 

I'm sure Gloucester were aware what was about to happen, and were probably offering discounts in order to use up their materials, so there was a glut of wagons in 1923 and 1924 to their earlier standards.  By 1925, everything was to the 1923 standard, but by then the post war boom had finished and Gloucester were running into trouble with Hall Lewis so there wasn't very much new build going on.

 

Nationally, new build to RCH 1923 carried on into WW2, although by then a significant number of wagons were constructed in steel.  This culminated in the LMS D2135 wagon, the precursor to the thousands of BR mineral wagons.

 

Bill

[wagonman]

Having a copy of Ian Pope's book to hand I can confirm the photo date as Sept 1924, the photo no. 4514 and the order no.5177. It was probably their only wagon. As for the red, Charles Roberts used a shade called 'London Red' – I expect Gloucester had something similar, the 'bright' and 'dark' versions being different again. This was not red oxide.

[Spitfire2865]

Having a copy of Ian Pope's book to hand I can confirm the photo date as Sept 1924, the photo no. 4514 and the order no.5177. It was probably their only wagon. As for the red, Charles Roberts used a shade called 'London Red' – I expect Gloucester had something similar, the 'bright' and 'dark' versions being different again. This was not red oxide.

So you think this is more like London red? Or something else?

[bbishop]

Well some of us think it is red oxide (which is a matt pigment) and some of us think it might be slightly darker and glossier.  But you have the Lee Marvin role and no-one is going to disagree with you.

 

Bill

[Spitfire2865]

Well...I just painted the base coat this morning, and its a rust like color, fairly similar to red oxide, and I figure its as good as Im getting it without resorting to mixing more paint. The biggest task is going to be lettering it.

[petethemole]

Regarding the RCH pattern undeframes, I recently bought Keith Montague's OPC book on the GRCW PO wagons. There is a dearth of photos in it for the years from about 1923 to 1935. It includes two dated 1935 of new build wagons on 1908 u/fs, but  several of 1923 pattern dated 1936. They were still building them in 1943. The short history of the company included suggests that output of British orders was low after 1923 and very low between 1929 and 1934.

 

Pete

[asmay2002]

Having a copy of Ian Pope's book to hand I can confirm the photo date as Sept 1924, the photo no. 4514 and the order no.5177. It was probably their only wagon. As for the red, Charles Roberts used a shade called 'London Red' – I expect Gloucester had something similar, the 'bright' and 'dark' versions being different again. This was not red oxide.

Of course "London red" was not Red oxide. That is well known and what I said in my original post - an additional qualification.  This photo clearly says "Red" not "London Red", "Midland red" or any other colour.